World News Thread (Politics,whatever)

[Robert Taylor]

people saying stuff != evidence...

Here you go.
You are in Seattle. You know what your vote sheet looked like. What do you think they are doing in the video?

 

[Djoga'Ro]

I won't bother to answer your every point in your walls of text - that'd be work.
I don't think the right wing dogma is evil, but that it's stupid.
You did not experience communism. There hasn't been communism in modern times (don't know about early history). Some things in modern times have been called that, but those were suppressive dictatorships led by single political parties instead of single persons.
Trump ain't a fighter/he does not have balls. It's more like he's a kid playing a video game. Everyone but himself is an NPC (to him). To his core he's incapable of taking anyone or anything serious but himself and his shit. So, for him it doesn't take much to go against everyone and everything. He's just not right in the head.

What do you think they are doing in the video?

That's a video of a device showing cam footage from delcopa.gov. So, the people shown would know, they're on public viewing.
Thus a way easier to believe explanation would be, that her job is to fill out the boxes, that have been marked thinly by the voters, for a counting machine might need this to reliably count the votes. And we can just like that go with my explanation, cause, if there's anything fishy about it, be sure Trump's minions will bring it before court and there'll be done something about it - especially it would blow up publicly.

 

[Robert Taylor]

You did not experience communism. There hasn't been communism in modern times (don't know about early history). Some things in modern times have been called that, but those were suppressive dictatorships led by single political parties instead of single persons.

Well, if you can tell a person that lived in a communist country that he did not live in a communist country, I can tell you that you don't know what you are talking about.

Seriously. You can't be this stupid.

And post it for everyone to read.



EDIT: I mean that nicely but with a little bit of an edge. You should edit that part out, that is so unbelievably stupid it's hard to put into words.

 

[Robert Taylor]

Overall, I get what you are saying.

Don't worry, I can provide feedback to all of your comments:

// I won't bother to answer your every point in your walls of text - that'd be work.

I know.

// I don't think the right wing dogma is evil, but that it's stupid.

Well, another way to say the same thing is, that isn't your opinion. That was assigned to you by your peers. Anyone that has ever built even the smallest business ends up conservative. Taking a liberal and converting them into a racist is even easier.

EDIT: And another way to say what I just said is that my opinion is not my own but that of my peers. This is actually what I was getting at with my earlier question, which you kindly answered. I appreciate your answer by the way.

Basically our minds absorb the value systems of the people and groups around us. I have been you and said everything you said, although, never something quite as stupid as your communist comment. That was really retarded. I was a lefty, I know everything you beleive because I was surrounded by the same kinds of people. But, I did not choose to be an extreme right winger, it chose me. It started about 25 years ago when I started my first business. Once you start building things, you never go left again.

// You did not experience communism. There hasn't been communism in modern times (don't know about early history). Some things in modern times have been called that, but those were suppressive dictatorships led by single political parties instead of single persons.

Addressed above. You clearly have not the slightest clue.

// Trump ain't a fighter/he does not have balls. It's more like he's a kid playing a video game. Everyone but himself is an NPC (to him). To his core he's incapable of taking anyone or anything serious but himself and his shit. So, for him it doesn't take much to go against everyone and everything. He's just not right in the head.

Well, this is obviously wrong. When he ran in 2016, they brought up one thing after another and he never gave up,he never faltered and he fought back. He fought for everything we got duing the last 4 years, and hopefully he continues to fight now against the election being stolen. Exactly 100% of everything in this statement is false, I just have to pick a random date of any of the last 4 years to show you the opposite.

// That's a video of a device showing cam footage from delcopa.gov. So, the people shown would know, they're on public viewing.
Thus a way easier to believe explanation would be, that her job is to fill out the boxes, that have been marked thinly by the voters, for a counting machine might need this to reliably count the votes. And we can just like that go with my explanation, cause, if there's anything fishy about it, be sure Trump's minions will bring it before court and there'll be done something about it - especially it would blow up publicly.

This is actually a fair interpretation. I can totally see that, great point.


I think you need to do better and think more clearly. Largely you need experience trying to build an organization of your own to fully understand the right wing. As for communism, just don't talk shit about something you know nothing about.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

Well, if you can tell a person that lived in a communist country that he did not live in a communist country, I can tell you that you don't know what you are talking about.

Seriously. You can't be this stupid.

And post it for everyone to read.



EDIT: I mean that nicely but with a little bit of an edge. You should edit that part out, that is so unbelievably stupid it's hard to put into words.

I'm from the GDR, so fuck off.
I'm not saying, they weren't called that. I'm saying, they weren't were that.

 

[Robert Taylor]

I'm from the GDR, so fuck off.
I'm not saying, they weren't called that. I'm saying, they weren't were that.

Alright Katarina Witt. Illuminate us as to what REAL COMMUNISM is.

Let's see your genious explanation about a magical land that never existed.

EDIT: Oh, also, just because I answered you, please don't feel like you owe me an answer or that it is an attack or something. It's text and I really like the topic so it may read wrong. It's fine either way.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

Alright Katarina Witt. Illuminate us as to what REAL COMMUNISM is.

Let's see your genious explanation about a magical land that never existed.

EDIT: Oh, also, just because I answered you, please don't feel like you owe me an answer or that it is an attack or something. It's text and I really like the topic so it may read wrong. It's fine either way.

What had been implemented was fascistic and rather paranoid at that. Communism would be democratic.

 

[Robert Taylor]

Oh I see where you are coming from. Okay we just disagree on labels. I think you are correctly seeing the mechanisms here, we would probably agree on a bunch on this topic.

Hey, I was thinking about what you posted earlier. You said you find right wing views stupid. Would you mind expanding on that?

1) What it is you think the right wing value systems are? I'm curious what your perception of this might be.

2) Your choice of labeling it stupid is really really interesting. The left sees the right as evil because the left has a built in mechanism of deporsonalization in order to help their members see their opponents as something they can kill. This is normal, all groups do this, it is a necessary survival mechanism for our species.

Instead, you said 'stupid' which is really interesting. On the surface it is a bit of a dig, which is cool. I think a little bit of ribbing and humour is healthy. But I am curious if you really mean that it actually is stupid or are you just being nice in order to not deporsonalize me or those of us on this side? In other words, what is it about value systems that makes them stupid?

For example, we usually call things stupid in a post facto manner. So, Trump running in 2016 and loosing is stupid. Trump running in 2016 and winning against all odds is amazing (and it really was an amazing run, our side enjoyed it immensly). Things we call stupid but are forward oriented are based on our post facto expeirences and have a prediction value that they are either bad for us or will result. For example, if someone says they will jump off of a bridge, we know it's stupid because the results are always negative.

What kinds of results have you seen from right wing value systems? Were they good or bad?

Instead of posting right away, maybe take a few days and write something up. I am really curious to hear more, I did not expect the word stupid to be this interesting.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

The left sees the right as evil because the left has a built in mechanism of deporsonalization in order to help their members see their opponents as something they can kill.

THAT ASPECT to me is the core problem of all religous thinking and by the latter I don't just mean spiritually based stuff, but all unfounded stuff, that's believed in as if it were absolute truth. Groups, I'd accuse of having that problem, would be - among other - Nazis, SJWs, Muslims and Christians, that take their religion serious, so-called communists ... fashists basically. Fashism being being strict on allignment and harsh on the unalligned.
Since there is no objective/absolute good or bad, one may either be a nihilist or define them for oneself. But in case of the latter one should be and stay conscious about having done so.
To me constructive shit is preferable over destructive shit with regards to technological development, but even more so with regards to the human condition - ideally of every human being.
Enforced strong allignment/fashism can be a huge boost in efficiency of course, but makes a lot of people, that are in line, uncomfortable to miserable and causes a lot of suffering for the outliers (whatever high there numbers are), which makes it unacceptable to me.
Of course, I'd love to effectively exclude all the groups, that propagate an against-each-other instead of more cooperation, but that's where I create my own paradox. So I encourage myself to differentiate between the shitty informational state a brain is in and the person burdened by that shit.
Some fashism is needed, since total anarchy would get us nowhere, but it should be very careful about limiting personal freedom and suppression. Religious thinking must be contested at all times.
For base values, I like where Sam Harris is going with his emotional-state-and-empathy-based model (forgot, what he calls it; something about morals, objective morals, new morals maybe; dunno). To counter one's own depersonalization of others it's also healthy to take in his arguments against there being something like free will. The latter also helps with developing a more sober perspective on criminals and the handling of them.

what is it about value systems that makes them stupid?

Being destructive and or counterproductive based on false assumptions. (False assumptions, that have little to no potency of causing damage, I care little about.)
The main error in right wing thinking - as far as I can see - has been mentioned here already and you dismissed it.
That'd be blaming immigrants and the downtrodden for the shitty state things are in, while those are the victims and the main culprit is the current system. Few great fighters (as you'd propably call them) being able to accumulate most of the wealth and directing the politics according to their own selfish interest.

What kinds of results have you seen from right wing value systems? Were they good or bad?

I'd like to expand the scope of the question to be about fashism especially based on stupid ideas.
Nazi Germany
Islamic State
the "communism" you experienced
Scientology
Spanish Inquisition
everything with the mechanism from the first quote
I'd rather call them bad.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

or are you just being nice in order to not deporsonalize me or those of us on this side

I shared a bench in specialized high school with a nazi. Nice guy, intelligent. We solved the given problems in electric engineering in the most cumbersome ways just for fun and in competition. We both were friends with a Vietnamese guy in our class, but when it came to politics, we got nowhere with each other. He was grown into it. As the nice guy he was, he ran into contradictions sometimes, but that wasn't enough. At least not, while I knew him.

 

[Null]

I'd like to expand the scope of the question to be about fashism especially based on stupid ideas.
Nazi Germany
Islamic State
the "communism" you experienced
Scientology
Spanish Inquisition
everything with the mechanism from the first quote
I'd rather call them bad.

I didn't expect that.

 

[ElPoco]

Enforced strong allignment/fashism can be a huge boost in efficiency of course

I really doubt it. The fascist governments were actually completely inefficient and completely chaotic. Like any other authoritarian governments, they rely a lot on the leader who can change everything on a whim. The government members are left in the dark and since everything is up to the leader, they'll spend more time in-fighting to get his approval.
This was the case for Franco, for Mussolini, for Hitler. This is also the case in many companies or services led by an authoritarian figure.

Fascist don't get the job done, they don't get trains to run on time. They aren't "ruthless but efficient" they're just ruthless and get people killed.

 

[Robert Taylor]

Fascist don't get the job done, they don't get trains to run on time. They aren't "ruthless but efficient" they're just ruthless and get people killed.

How can you be so clearly intelligent and well read and get everything so consistently wrong? This is demonstrably wrong on every conceivable level.

It staggers the imagination to be honest. Do you have any experience at all running any type of organization? I know I sound belitteling but I don't mean it that way. Have you ever run even something as small as a message board? Anything?

 

[levi]

I didn't expect that.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

I really doubt it. The fascist governments were actually completely inefficient and completely chaotic. Like any other authoritarian governments, they rely a lot on the leader who can change everything on a whim. The government members are left in the dark and since everything is up to the leader, they'll spend more time in-fighting to get his approval.
This was the case for Franco, for Mussolini, for Hitler. This is also the case in many companies or services led by an authoritarian figure.

Fascist don't get the job done, they don't get trains to run on time. They aren't "ruthless but efficient" they're just ruthless and get people killed.

I'm all over the place right now and didn't reflect on the existence of actual axamples. I mean, my post ain't straight and forward either, I fear.
But still, if you can direct huge workforces as you like without negotiating pricing or other annoying stuff, you can achieve a lot. Naturally it scales rather directly then to your competence and the good grip of your fashism. (at least on paper)

 

[Robert Taylor]

Djang'Ro - Those are great answers, I appreciate that. Very insightful and thorough. We agree on everything very deeply, except Sam Harris.

So, let me ask you this question, which is also a question for everyone here: You did an absolutely exceptional job describing the core problems caused by rigid hierarchies and I think everyone here would agree. The IQ on this board is high enough that everyone has put some thought into this and made similar observations. As you say, hierarchies are necessary, without them we cannot survive...

... a sidebar on hierarchies if you don't mind: The best way to FEEL how valuable hierarchies are is to be in a village in the Canadian north 500 km from the next town in the dead of winter with -45c outside, thinking you have enough fuel to get there and then running out of gas just close enough to do a roll in neutral into a gas station. There is something very special about being so close to uncertain death in the middle of nowhere. I wake up every day and appreciate every human being on this planet that contributes to the network effects that allow for and unbelievably high standard of living and magic like computers and the internet.

So the question is, if you feel so deeply about the deporsonalization of others particularly within rigid hierarchies, why do you do it to Trump?

 

[matzesu]

Could whe please screw this whole political discussion, so nobody on this board knows our political background
I know, political right is not automatically something that tends to a third Reich, and whit a different guy, It may be that the US Republicans aren’t that bad..
whit his „Stop the Count“ tweets Unkle Donald don’t appears to me like the guy that should be the President..

But this whole topic is quite divicult, and it’s could bring pressure to the boards environment of happy and kind Linux Handheld Nerds ..

Also every political way got different scales:
You can be left, whiteout that you support the extreme left, or the communist regimes like in North Korea, you can also be right,

Anyway what you be, I don’t want to know if I’m honest, because this tends to cancel culture: this member supports trump? I should ignore him even if he his nice..


Send from something, i guess ^^

 

[Robert Taylor]

I'm all over the place right now and didn't reflect on the existence of actual axamples. I mean, my post ain't straight and forward either, I fear.
But still, if you can direct huge workforces as you like without negotiating pricing or other annoying stuff, you can achieve a lot. Naturally it scales rather directly then to your competence and the good grip of your fashism. (at least on paper)

No,no, your answer was actually well formed and thorough. And you explained what is wrong with his statement very effectively. The problem is measurement.

* You can measure the efficiency of an organization in an infinite number of ways.

* You can also deliberately measure efficiency to make the results say anything that you want, including things like: Fascist don't get the job done, they don't get trains to run on time. They aren't "ruthless but efficient" they're just ruthless and get people killed.

Another observation that complicates the discussion is that there are 0 examples of organization without leadership / fascism. They simply don't exist. In fact, organizations that don't have ruthless leadership ALWAYS accrue unnecessary headcount in useless positions the way a boat that isn't ruthlessly cleaned gets parasitic organisms stuck to it. There is simply no way around this natural consequences of parasitic, herd and predator behaviours of organisms.

Part of the problem for those that don't have experience is they visualize organizations as static geometric objects and think they can fiddle with this geometric shape to get a better results. What they don't realize is two things:

1) THE OBSERVED - Organizations are better visualized as something between an aeomeba and a swarm of birds. It has a shape, a definition, an organization, a purpose, inputs, ouptus ... all of that. But, there is NO WAY to really think about an organization as a static object. Obviously business school only teaches the static components because that is how the human mind works, but when you run the simulation, the static components interact in all sorts of expected and unexpected ways.

2) THE OBSERVER - What ElPoco truly fails at is even remotely addressing the problem of the observer. Not only does the observer have to deal with the problem of measurement mentioned above, the observer him self IS PART OF AN AEMOBA/SWARM style organization him self (actually we are part of many such organizations) that changes how you perceive the world around you and therefore how you preceive measurements.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

So the question is, if you feel so deeply about the deporsonalization of others particularly within rigid hierarchies, why do you do it to Trump?

If he'd just do his ramblings in speakers corner, at the subway station or whatnot, I might focus more on what happened to that poor guy. But the position, he is in and wants to be in for the next four years, gives him rather some influence on the lives of one or two people. It's not about the guy, but about his fitness for the job.
Some Italian economicist (is that the word in English?) came up with some coordinate system, that had an altruism-selfishnes (I think? or was it morals?) scale on one axe and low to high intellegence on the other. I don't remember, who it was or what he called it, but sometimes I'd like to refer to it - like now. It was something about how unintellegent people tend to cause damage and intelligent ones rather cause prosperity. What I want to say is, you may not be certain, if a candidate really has your interests in mind, but an influential leader should at least be somewhat smart. Trump continues proving, that he's not.

 

[Robert Taylor]

Matty, your post is awesome. I appreciate you wanting to keep the peace. I think everyone is doing very well so far. I will stop is somehow this goes off the rail.