Why are the keys on the keyboard not in columns?

[Grench]

ah, the good old days...

and this was just the end of it:
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/keymat-layout-the-final-poll.76143/

That wasn't quite the end of it - there were several weeks of conversation with a limited audience of @4 of us to take #7 and tweak it to become what we have now.

In that survey from 2015 (has it been that long ago?) my submissions were #6 and #7. The brightness key from #6 made it into the final layout to free up a key in the attic - ED wanted F11 to be a top layer key - which isn't a bad thing on this device.

I really do think that despite the arguing and whatnot, we ended up with a fine layout for this device. It is relatively easy to learn and understand. The layout is based on 'rules within rules'. Things like on the Fn layer, the shifted version of each key on a US keyboard is just up and to the right of the unshifted version. The original layout #7 Fn layer had those keys left-right next to the keys that they are next to on a US keyboard. The post-poll discussions committee insisted on breaking those up to prioritize reach/access to the more common keys in the pairs, though I wanted to retain 'the rule'. So, the final one is not a 'Grench creation' but a 'community creation' throughout. I had a lot of input in it, but there were others who were equally influential in the design.

I do not have a pretty diagram handy of the final/shipping layout and don't have time to build one. There are pictures enough that someone can find one if they want to.

 

[FBnil]

half-staggered like they are means there's the most space around each that is possible.

Answer:

Why are keyboard keys staggered?

In every keyboard that I have used, the keys are arranged so that the keys are staggered a small increment to the left from the previous row. Q is above and slightly to the left of A, and A is abov...

ux.stackexchange.com

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

That answer does not fully explain the Pyra's staggering because the Pyra's staggering would not work for typewriters. The Pyra is pretty innovative when it comes to keyboard staggering.

 

[Neelix]

That answer does not fully explain the Pyra's staggering because the Pyra's staggering would not work for typewriters. The Pyra is pretty innovative when it comes to keyboard staggering.

It doesn't have to work for typewriters, it only has to work for the Pyra.

In any case I'm also pretty sure that that staggering pattern in in no way unique to the Pyra and Pandora, I can't think of any other specific examples off the top of my head but I'm almost certain that I've seen that style used even before I encountered the Pandora.

-Neelix

 

[oskda]

I know that regular keyboards have staggered keys so that people can easily switch between their mechanical typewriter and computer but the Pyra's keys do not seem to be staggered in a way that would be useful for a typewriter because the keys are still each below a key that is 2 rows higher. So why is the keyboard staggered like that as opposed to just have it all in columns?

I think this was answered time ago by ED or a person in his team: the reason is STRENGTH. If you would put keys in colums, orthogonally, it may be you would gain 1 or 2 keys more, but plastic keyboard base would be much more fragile. That is the reason they did in traditional way like typewriters and most computer keyboards.

Nimerical keyboard doesn't follow that arrangement.

Today you can find (or assmble it by yourself) mechanicals orthogonal keyboars with keys in colums, for example:
(I wll assemble one or two of those for me)

But those good mechanical keyboards can have metal base or thick metal plate, etc; They are not on lightness or thinnest like a plastic pocket conputer as Pyra must be.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

@oskda I don't see how that layout decision connects to the base's strength. ? Would it be to much weight with two more switches and keycaps? Why then not just make the base a few micrometers thicker?

 

[oskda]

I know that regular keyboards have staggered keys so that people can easily switch between their mechanical typewriter and computer but the Pyra's keys do not seem to be staggered in a way that would be useful for a typewriter because the keys are still each below a key that is 2 rows higher. So why is the keyboard staggered like that as opposed to just have it all in columns?

You are right with computer keyboards, most of them are arranged like mechanical typewriters for historical reasons and because people got used to that, although there is no physical reason for it in computer or electronic keyboards. In fact there are computer keyboards where keys are arranged in columns. If you search for «ortholinear keyboard» in internet you will find lots of them, from small like this

to medium like this

to really big like this

But those, even the smaller, are very big and heavy keyboards for a pocket computer.

There are lots of pocket devices with keys in columns. One of my favorites is HP 48SX (an advanced calculator and pocket computer):

(I love that brown color, and I would love for a Pyra with that elegant color).

What is the problem with Pyra?

Simply keys are small and very together to other keys, because Pyra is small (like a Nintendo DS in front size) and only a part of it can be used for keyboard (other part is for gaming controls). Look at this pic:

You can see how small is plastic surface from row to row. If you put keys in columns, "ortholinear" way, we would get 2 extra keys (good), but that plastic keyboard would be more fragile (bad), so design team decided to use staggered way. Time ago ED or a person in his team justified that design for this strength reason.

If you observe HP 48, you will see keys are bigger and more distant from other keys than in Pyra, so there is no problem with keys in columns in HP 48

In a desktop keyboard with ortholinear design you have no problem because keys rest on a thick and rigid base, but in Pyra you only have that small plastic frame.

 

[oskda]

@oskda I don't see how that layout decision connects to the base's strength. ? Would it be to much weight with two more switches and keycaps? Why then not just make the base a few micrometers thicker?

I think you are lost

Go back to 1st message in this thread and you will see Dr. λ doesn't mention layout. He ask about keys arranged in staggered order versus keys arranged in columns. This is not a layout matter; even you can have same layout with a staggered keyboard and a ortholinear keyboard (keys arranged in columns) if you have equal number of keys in each row.

In no way I have talked about keyboard layout. Layout can be changed in software, physical keys arrangement can't.
This is not a question about keyboard layout but about physical keyboard keys arrangement, and in particular about staggered way vs columns way.

If you put keys in columns (ortholinear way), you gain 2 keys, but the problem in Pyra is plastic base keys cross would be fragile. Look at pic in my previous post. You can see how small, in surface, that plastic is between each row. I think it would not be remedied with a few µm thicker plastic, but it would require a more thicker plastic. ED/team choose that staggered arrangement because it is more strength for that plastic part.

 

[PowerGod]

Now I'll have nightmares at night after seeing that super big keyboard

 

[Askarus]

to really big like this

GPD WIN MAX: I even have dedicated F-keys
That Keyboard: I have 3 rows of F-keys stacked.

 

[oskda]

View attachment 35973

Answer:

Why are keyboard keys staggered?

In every keyboard that I have used, the keys are arranged so that the keys are staggered a small increment to the left from the previous row. Q is above and slightly to the left of A, and A is abov...

ux.stackexchange.com

That is true for keys with front form shaped in circle or ovoid form, not for keys in near rectangle shape like Pyra and most keyboard do.

Post automatically merged: Apr 21, 2020

GPD WIN MAX: I even have dedicated F-keys
That Keyboard: I have 3 rows of F-keys stacked.

I think GPD WIN MAX is not a "pocket" computer It is too big for most pockets at least.

 

[oskda]

Now I'll have nightmares at night after seeing that super big keyboard

So do I, really.

In fact I hate when they put only one row of function keys with all keys together, while I prefer function keys in traditional grouped way (4 keys in each group). So when I see 3 rows with all function keys together I get really bad

 

[Djoga'Ro]

I think you are lost

Go back to 1st message in this thread and you will see Dr. λ doesn't mention layout. He ask about keys arranged in staggered order versus keys arranged in columns. This is not a layout matter; even you can have same layout with a staggered keyboard and a ortholinear keyboard (keys arranged in columns) if you have equal number of keys in each row.

By layout I meant nothing else but the physical key arrangement. Though first it sounded as if you're talking about the strength of the "backplate". Are you talking about the strength of the case, where it frames the keys? So rather the structure, that makes the layout of the cut-outs?

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

The big keyboard is what vim users have to use in hell. Look at where the esc is on that keyboard!

 

[oskda]

By layout I meant nothing else but the physical key arrangement.

I understand you. In computer keyboard, when I say "keyboard layout" I refer to software layout loaded in OS and symbols/functions on each key (you can change layout in software, but symbols on physical keys remain unchaged).

Some people in this thread are talking about layout in that sense I do, while Dr. λ only asked for staggered order versus keys arranged in columns.

Are you talking about the strength of the case, where it frames the keys? So rather the structure

Of course, that is the answer to staggered versus keys arranged in columns question. It implies choosing a frame form or other.

The layout (what I say for layout) doesn't change from staggered to columns-arranged (without extra keys).

 

[oskda]

The big keyboard is what vim users have to use in hell. Look at where the esc is on that keyboard!

Really horrible. But I suppose that keyboard is programmable, so you can assign ESC key to a key next to Q, and of course you can change keycap as usually you can do in mechanical keyboards.

Of course, watching that big keyboard we'll have nightmares

 

[levi]

At least that big keyboard has crtl in the correct place (although it does have a secondary one for those that refuse to learn). I don't personally have a problem with the position of Escape, even as a vim user myself.

 

[FBnil]

That Keyboard:

Love that spacebar!

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

At least that big keyboard has crtl in the correct place (although it does have a secondary one for those that refuse to learn). I don't personally have a problem with the position of Escape, even as a vim user myself.

Do you use Ctrl+[ instead of Esc? That's what I use because even on my normal keyboard I think Esc is too far away and my Caps Lock is already Ctrl.

 

[levi]

I didn't know abot ctrl+[, that's worth knowing. On my currently keyboard, the escape key is the first on a row with all of the F-keys and my tilde key, which are all reduced by about 4/5ths in the horizontal, and slightly more in the vertical, and is separated from the letter keys by the number row, so it's not diagonally adjacent from the Q key like on most keyboards, but it looks like I actually register the edge of the case and a slight rise in the case with my ring finger before pressing the key with my index finger on my left hand, so actually I'm using the case to locate it rather than it's relative position to other keys.