What If Open Pandora Ltd Goes Bankrupt?

[MaxSteiner]

Long time lurker, first time poster (And I wish I had been prompted to post by something more favourable...).
I shouldn't have to start with this, but I've been on enough forums to know it don't take much too set the vocal minority into flame mode
Just in case that isn't enough tto save me though, lets put it this way, if your faith in the Open Pandora team is so weak that it can be shaken by a n00b asking a simple question, maybe its time you took an objective look at yourself.

Ok, now all that unpleasantness is out the way:

I would imagine that most of us would agree that the Pandora business plan isn't running quite to schedual.
Given all the little unforseen setbacks such as the switching of banks, the paypal debacle (although honestly.... that one is kinda their fault, even I knew you couldn't use it for items not recieved within 30 days.), this LCD situation, and I would imagine the upcoming problems which we can't even imagine, things have got to be getting pretty tight. Especially since the first batch is primarily paying for the set up costs.
Another danger, is that as of yet, the Pandora doesnt have consumers, it has investors (thats us of course)...

Assuming the refunds continue to drag (we are nearing a month now), and the more skittish investors withdraw their funds to buy more limited, yet more tangable gadgets, Open Pandora Ltd (incidently is Open Pandora a public or a private limited company, anyone know?) could find itself lacking the liquidity it needs to react to a looming crisis, finding itself insolvent, or possibly even bankrupt.
Now legally speaking we could find ourselves in a strange sittuation. As I say we could be considered investors (certainly heard that bandied about here more than once), BUT legally speaking, we would only be customers.
It might be a few years since I studied business, but one thing I remember is that in this situation, debts are paid in a certain order WITH customers coming last.

The problem with this obviously is that these things have a habit snowballing. Some people pull out, the more nervous business minded people take note of this and withdraw their money to protect their investment, more people take nottice as the threat becomes more credible, and finally, what happens, is the most loyal, vocal supporters find the company is suddenly in danger.

So, my question is, should the absolute worst thing happen, what could we as community do?
Realistically it would be accept the death of another great system, and hope we get some of our investment back (And possibly one of the finished units in auction).... but that doesn't sit well with me.
Personally I would favour something along the lines of new shares being issued, and being offered to those interested in keeping the business alive, another avenue might be donations (although honestly that is a terrible way to keep a going concern afloat)....

To sum up, Im not saying this will happen.
Let me reiterate I AM NOT SAYING THIS WILL HAPPEN.
But, should something like this happen, do we as a community have any contingencies ready? Are we as a company willing to accept this is a possibility, or is it easier to just have faith?

 

[grobi]

As a customer, I don't feel like an investor because I don't feel carrying the risk of an investor, and the possible upside also is very limited (owning a cool device doesn't count as it does not give me return on capital).

OpenPandora Ltd. is a tiny firm with much more cash at its hands than anyone could realistically hope for in this crisis.

As we all (4000 of us) prepaid the device, there seems to be only a technical financial risk left for the OpenPandora Ltd. owners because all that might happen to the funds is that the bank holding them closes overnight.

We never asked for their salaries, but as this project has been running for a long time without any (external) funding I guess (and hope) they all have still jobs that pay their bills.

So assuming they don't spend our money for speedboats or private jets, bankruptcy of OpenPandora is the last risk I would fear of all risks still looming out there, including the bankruptcy of manufactoring partners, loss of faith of the developers which might result in a takeover of OpenPandora by a bunch of scamming criminals.

grobi

 

[mali]

They would have to find an inverstor. With a mature product like this, that would be no problem. But the investor would presumably want to have influence in further decisions, so good bye openness.
Question answered.

 

[neogramps]

QUOTE
even I knew you couldn't use it for items not recieved within 30 days


Just because you know something doesn't mean it's common knowledge; they were under pressure and as far as I could see, paypal was a rushed decision in the end.

QUOTE
we are nearing a month now


15 days (11 business days) is not "near" a month.


Grobi got the rest before I could finish.

 

[MaxSteiner]

But Craig has repeateadly told us that all of the cash on this first run is paying for the start up costs and dev wages. That there is no profit in this phase.
If the Dec release was even a possibility, the parts have been paid for by now surely?
Hence, they don't actually have more money than a company of that size can dream of.
They have assets equal to the value of more money than a company of that size can dream of, but they do not have the money. (Hence they have little liquidity)

Either that, or the money is being dipped into as and when needed. (in which case we are a little further behind than I thought)

Regardless, my point remains, if all of this money is effectivly spent, then unforseen circumstances could drive the project into the red.

 

[lubidog]

You know, for a first post this is pretty rubbish! I know I am about to flaame, but after everything you said in your opening and then went on to carry outt your threats...

You No Good!

If Openpandora go under we are screwed. What else do you expect? Why waste our time writing about it? The law is clear, we are in no way investors. We are customers. The chances of us being repaid are practically nil. Anyone with half a brain would know this, so what's the point in starting stupid, scaremongering threads like this.

AND YES I DID READ YOUR OPENING! But your conjecture is so pointless as to not warrant the rubbish you followed it with!!!

We had a thread recently about how we treat noobs. I know i have just flamed this one, but really-are we going to see a torrent of such threads? That make obvious points over and over again??? We are all worried, but we can either cancel or hang on. This is like the BBC talking constantlyabout the credit crunch-you are talking up trouble!

Honestly, I give up!!!

 

[MaxSteiner]

Just because you know something doesn't mean it's common knowledge; they were under pressure and as far as I could see, paypal was a rushed decision in the end.

Just because you don't know something doesnt mean it isn't
Its in the terms and conditions for Paypal.
If you are using paypal you have agreed to the terms and conditions, which would imply they have been read.
I'm not saying its reprehensible that they missed it, but I don't see how it could be denied that it is their fault.
Mistakes happen, but from some of the posts on here you would think Paypal cancelled the orders out of the blue.

we are nearing a month now

15 days (11 business days) is not "near" a month.
[/quote]

Is the end in sight? As far as I can tell the only person who had recieved a refund has just found out that it was something else. Over 50% of the way through the month with little sign of the end coming (remember it was implied that other countries were affected too), is nearing a month.

Not meaning to be confrontational in the slightest by the way, but I am suprised nones asked this before.

You know, for a first post this is pretty rubbish! I know I am about to flaame, but after everything you said in your opening and then went on to carry outt your threats...

You No Good!

If Openpandora go under we are screwed. What else do you expect? Why waste our time writing about it? The law is clear, we are in no way investors. We are customers. The chances of us being repaid are practically nil. Anyone with half a brain would know this, so what's the point in starting stupid, scaremongering threads like this.

AND YES I DID READ YOUR OPENING! But your conjecture is so pointless as to not warrant the rubbish you followed it with!!!

We had a thread recently about how we treat noobs. I know i have just flamed this one, but really-are we going to see a torrent of such threads? That make obvious points over and over again??? We are all worried, but we can either cancel or hang on. This is like the BBC talking constantlyabout the credit crunch-you are talking up trouble!

Honestly, I give up!!!

You didn't have to read it mate
If you honestly can't handle the slightest bit of dissent, then maybe you should give up?

I was asking if there were any plans in place to stave off the worst, I suggest issuing public shares, someone else has suggested outside investment (which is a great idea), you've suggested rolling over and accepting it, honestly mate, which is more useful?

 

[mali]

I think my answer perfectly describes a possible solution. So basicaly this thread is lockable(nearly flamefree)

 

[MaxSteiner]

lol well kind off

========> Just sticking this in so I don't fill the screen with messages from me.

I don't think asking a question which doesnt have a topic is flaming.
If there was a topic which has been closed and deleted covering this I apologise, but I havent seen it.
Otherwise though, what do you care?

The way some of you are going on, I've just commited a thought crime

I was just wondering whether the community had anything in place against this very real possibility.
But obviously I must be punished because my faith is weak

 

[gaterooze]

This is nonsense, and akin to shouting FIRE in a crowded room. Talk about raging speculation.

BTW: "even I knew you couldn't use it for items not recieved within 30 days."

Then you don't know much, because it's 20 days.

Seriously, the Pandora wasn't even supposed to (tentatively) ship for another couple of weeks, this chicken little routine is severely premature. Every venture ever faces unexpected delays and hiccups, from experience I'd say the Pandora team are sitting about average for the way things have gone. Not perfect (so rare), but certainly not disastrous.

 

[lubidog]

No, you don't get it. You haven't been here that long and seen the masses of useless threads about pointless conjecture. And how arrogant of you to assume that the openpandora team haven't even thought of cashflow???

Listen, what is more helpful? To start threads that will scare the hell out of many people and encourage them to cancel their orders so that the team DO have cashflow problems. Really pointless scare threads that point out the bleeding obvious. Or to trust the guys in charge, and remain positive to help encourage the noobs to sit tight so that we might ACTUALLY see this thing built?

It's a no brainer, really. But I am sure the team are grateful for your advice about business...

 

[Tobriand]

I doubt they would go bankrupt.

Several points:

1. We do not know their financial position.

Or more accurately, we do know that they don't have any loans or the like, and that everything has basically been accomplished with private funds. The only bit that likely may have been accomplished with pre-order money is actual production, and even that is tenuous - I cannot remember a post by any of the developers saying that first-run units were paid for by pre-order money. I *can* remember posts by lots of members that made assertions to that effect, and that the idea has since entered the collective consciousness, but not, I think, from the developers.

2. Even if they are reliant on pre-order capital (which may very well be the case), they could probably raise production capitol from elsewhere.

They do not have loans, currently, and they do have a business which is in its final stages of getting its product to market. The reason people would hypothetically be pulling out would be lack of confidence in the company, not lack of confidence in the device. Consequently, they have a very solid business plan which might very well allow them to take out a loan for the production costs if they had to (though I'm not certain what they'd use for security - the business itself sounds dangerous, but possible). Seeing as, once production had completed, everyone who pre-ordered and pulled out would almost certainly re-order the now completed units, such a loan could be paid off fairly quickly, and, hopefully, would have an impact aong the lines of that the first 5500 or so units were not profitable as opposed to just the very first batch.

Basically, I don't think there's anything to worry about.

Anyway, I'm killing the thread. I *think* the question has been answered, and this thread will deteriorate into flames within a few more minutes, unfortunate though it is.

 

[Chip]

1. I do know our financial position (at least I have a better idea of it than most) and there is no significant risk of Openpandora going under Never say never (especially not with the current world economic situation), but Openpandora is not in any danger. If we were operating on a huge budget made up of borrowed money, there might be reason for concern, but this is not the case.

2. Production is already accounted for. The banking hassle is nothing more than an inconvenience. As I have said in previous posts, manufacturing will commence no matter what. If you have paid for a Pandora, you will get one. Nothing (except meteors!) can stop it now.