What do people think of the 1ghz Pandas?
- Thread starter ExquisiteCorpse
- Start date
craigix
Mega GP Mania
Cheaper than an iPhone/iPad and offers much more functionality?
Even Apple/Samsung can't get their prices very low and they make millions of units.
Even Apple/Samsung can't get their prices very low and they make millions of units.
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Null
Snug
I think that Apple will be the winners of this particular battle, among the members of the general public anyway. I would still like to buy a Pandora 2 but justifying spending that amount of cash will be difficult.
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Just keep telling yourself that. You really think iPads without the huge NAND addons and 3G cost anywhere close to $700? Especially the previous generation ones, you can get an iPad 2 for $400 now.. Of course other manufacturers are offering various tablets for much less..
If the next Pandora really needs to cost $700 then so be it, I'm not going to bother with that argument here, but you're insulting the intelligence of your market by telling them that this is a normal industry price for products with similar components. You love to bring up phones but almost no one is buying them unsubsidized and Pandora is not a phone and eschews a lot of phone specific costs. If you want to compare with an Apple device it's fair to bring in iPod Touch which starts at only $200.
The whole defensive rationalization from OPT to convince people that it's a good price is a waste of time IMO, and kind of a petty advertising approach.. people will either think the price is acceptable or they won't.. the ones who chime in probably already made up their minds, you're just preaching to the choir.
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Foxgod
Active Member
Il write you a simple piece of code:
If Pandora+ <700$ makes no profit, Then Pandora cannot be sold.
Else, sell for int amount == 700$
Maybe that logic makes more sense to you, all the other arguments are pointless.
The discussion should not be, is the pandora+ worth 700, the discussion should be can it be sold for less then 700, the answer is NO.
Theres plenty of reasons why this is the case, counter argumenting with examples from billion dollar company's however, doesnt add up, apples and oranges.
Its like comparing hand made clothes to mass produced clothes.
For people who want a panda+ but for less then 700 bucks, i recommend to wait till the company's behind the openpandora settle down a bit, and dont have to worry so much anymore about debts.
As soon as they start to make a bit of money, and things start to look more up, lower prices can be argumented.
Also with the OMAP production being produced with smaller cirquitry, the soc's are likely to become cheaper as well in the future.
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Yes. I get it. They need to make profit. Thank you everyone for constantly repeating this. I'm not a fucking idiot.
Put aside any third party opinion on what a comparable relatively low volume could cost to manufacture and sell, with or without proper initial investment. For Pandora as it currently exists ED said it costs about $400 to make top to bottom and put together a relatively thorough proposal for investors that outlined this cost. The investors would then be idiots to give money if they were actually making a LOSS at this price. Now we're being told they need to make $600 for the same thing, then $700 for something new. So you have to accept that the new thing is going to cost a lot more to manufacture, or they're going to again to try fund development with pre-orders instead of real investment (despite talks of Kickstarter funding). Or they think the development costs will be so high compared to the volume that it'll balloon the price, even though they allegedly plan on reusing the case which was the biggest development cost. Yeah, the next one will probably have some more expensive parts. It also could have a lot of potential for cost optimization over Pandora's current design. I've listed several of these before, go dig for it yourself if you want.
I'm tired of all of this. Any argument is basically countered with "but OPT says so so they must be right." If you guys aren't actually being taken for a ride it's obvious that you're at least susceptible to it.
Put aside any third party opinion on what a comparable relatively low volume could cost to manufacture and sell, with or without proper initial investment. For Pandora as it currently exists ED said it costs about $400 to make top to bottom and put together a relatively thorough proposal for investors that outlined this cost. The investors would then be idiots to give money if they were actually making a LOSS at this price. Now we're being told they need to make $600 for the same thing, then $700 for something new. So you have to accept that the new thing is going to cost a lot more to manufacture, or they're going to again to try fund development with pre-orders instead of real investment (despite talks of Kickstarter funding). Or they think the development costs will be so high compared to the volume that it'll balloon the price, even though they allegedly plan on reusing the case which was the biggest development cost. Yeah, the next one will probably have some more expensive parts. It also could have a lot of potential for cost optimization over Pandora's current design. I've listed several of these before, go dig for it yourself if you want.
I'm tired of all of this. Any argument is basically countered with "but OPT says so so they must be right." If you guys aren't actually being taken for a ride it's obvious that you're at least susceptible to it.
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Foxgod
Active Member
Then why keep argumenting?
Its obvious that Opendpandora got debts due to recent experiences with CC, and they had to get investors to get the production going in Germany, they dont have any other option.
So argumenting the price is impossible, the only other option would be to let the company go bust, then everybody would lose.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Yeah, these experiences with CC must mean that anything they ever sell, no matter how far into the future, will have a price premium. I thought we were talking about the price of a totally different product? And are you not aware that ED's pricing was based on what it costs to assemble the PCBs in Germany?
I hope they win this lawsuit with CC, get back a bunch of money, and nothing changes.
I hope they win this lawsuit with CC, get back a bunch of money, and nothing changes.
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Foxgod
Active Member
Doubtful, cause then sales of the pandora would stagnate at some point, and they would still be forced to lower the price to continue steady sales, but only if openpandora its position would allow it, if circumstances would not allow, it would mean going bust.
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
That's how most products work, but Pandora is the opposite, where the price steadily goes up the longer it's out.
Foxgod
Active Member
Because due to inpexperience and drawbacks in its first few years, the first pricepoint turned out to be too low.
Had they not have this problems, i am sure the pandora would still be lower priced, but a company is all bussiness, it has to survive to ensure that all orders can be fulfilled.
Newer experiences, insights and unfortunate drawbacks have lead to a new price.
The Panda+ is obviously once again more expensive due to setting up a new production run, its not easy to bargain a good price for small production runs.
Big company's that place orders in the millions get a lot of discounts.
Each time you make a small production order, you have to pay the full price over and over again.
This will continue to happen until openpandora places a steady flow of orders.
Which wont happens for years from now, as openpandora is a new company with small fundings.
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Null
Snug
Call me pessimistic but I can really see this happening.
Foxgod
Active Member
Theres plenty of interest going on to keep pandora going, however, the support must remain to ensure long term survival.
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fusion_power
Advanced Member
I don't want to sound rude or insulting but if such a Handheld costs above 500$ and it still does not make profit, then something seems to go really wrong. 
Of course we all know the dramatic Pandora Story so we know why the things are like they are. But instead of milking the customers for all the fail, that have been made mainly by the Companies that made the Pandora parts (I don't speak about OP Team), I would force to let the Companies pay for all the fail. They still owe "us" alot of money due their incompetences.
And then I would think about how to make such a nice Device like The Pandora more chaper in the future and not more expencive. More going into "mass" production could be the key here and of course, choosing the right sources of the Hardware and the right Companies that build the stuff.
At least with the german Production we are in the right direction. May be more expencive now but if this way had be choosen right from the beginning, I'm sure OP-Team still would have saved alot of money.
Of course we all know the dramatic Pandora Story so we know why the things are like they are. But instead of milking the customers for all the fail, that have been made mainly by the Companies that made the Pandora parts (I don't speak about OP Team), I would force to let the Companies pay for all the fail. They still owe "us" alot of money due their incompetences.
And then I would think about how to make such a nice Device like The Pandora more chaper in the future and not more expencive. More going into "mass" production could be the key here and of course, choosing the right sources of the Hardware and the right Companies that build the stuff.
At least with the german Production we are in the right direction. May be more expencive now but if this way had be choosen right from the beginning, I'm sure OP-Team still would have saved alot of money.
Foxgod
Active Member
I don't want to sound rude or insulting but if such a Handheld costs above 500$ and it still does not make profit, then something seems to go really wrong.
Of course we all know the dramatic Pandora Story so we know why the things are like they are. But instead of milking the customers for all the fail, that have been made mainly by the Companies that made the Pandora parts (I don't speak about OP Team), I would force to let the Companies pay for all the fail. They still owe "us" alot of money due their incompetences.
And then I would think about how to make such a nice Device like The Pandora more chaper in the future and not more expencive. More going into "mass" production could be the key here and of course, choosing the right sources of the Hardware and the right Companies that build the stuff.
At least with the german Production we are in the right direction. May be more expencive now but if this way had be choosen right from the beginning, I'm sure OP-Team still would have saved alot of money.
Thats more of a "what if" explanation.
If you start a bussiness, it never goes perfect, openpandora however, experienced a drawback that would have made a lot of company's gone bust already.
In fact, if Openpandora didnt get investers for the german production run, they would have been bankrupt already.
This project truly went trough the eye of the needle, as we say in dutch, i am grateful they found a way to continue, to ensure that all orderers get their device.
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laurencevde
Member
Umm, the $500,- price IS profitable. The production-costs seem to be ±$400,-. The profits currently go to paying for the price-difference of the preorders, and will be used to pay off the debts afterwards. The $700,- is much more profitable, and OPT can ask that price because it's only a tiny production-run. They probably won't be able to sell thousands for that price...
About that debt: if I assume a $400k-debt, a steady 100 devices sold/week, and $100,- profit/device, it'll take OPT 40 weeks to pay off that debt. Up till that time, they should sell the Pandora for whatever makes them the most profit/week. Afterwards, it's up to them, but they probably want to make a buffer for some serious upgrades or a new device. Basically, just running a healty company.
About that debt: if I assume a $400k-debt, a steady 100 devices sold/week, and $100,- profit/device, it'll take OPT 40 weeks to pay off that debt. Up till that time, they should sell the Pandora for whatever makes them the most profit/week. Afterwards, it's up to them, but they probably want to make a buffer for some serious upgrades or a new device. Basically, just running a healty company.
craigix
Mega GP Mania
You might not be an idiot, but you certainly don't seem to have very much business sense.
Let's say that each unit comes in at $450.
This is what I personally say they cost when you also take in to account faulty units, shipping back and forth of returns, doing test runs etc.
I'm willing to also include in that price the box, power supply, battery, battery box etc. the whole package.
So, that's $450 for the unit alone, a singe built Pandora console ready to go to a customer.
Now, we also have monthly costs for just running the business. Phone, email, internet, etc.
Cars to collect shipments, to take packages to the post office etc (I got on the Leaf scheme so this is a flat rate for me)
Paypal fees, credit card fees, bank fees (these can easily eat up 5-10% of the Pandora price).
Also both I and Ed have part time extra staff.
Selling the Pandora then, at a $50 profit per unit is not even covering all of the above - and I'm not even going in to the debts we have yet.
$500 is selling at either a break even, or a loss, depending on numbers sold each week.
It certainly isn't going towards growing the company, paying for P2 work or anything else - it does not even cover paying us wages.
It's insane to try to keep running with that pricing scheme.
At $599-$699 we will potentially make $150-$200 a unit, however we have debts to pay back, money to cover shipping out original, non-upgraded preorders, some money to fund future consoles and then finally a little profit for us to bank (fingers crossed).
The good news about the $699 price is that people are happy to pay it for the 1Ghz units, we're actually really thankful about the number of orders everyone is placing, it really does mean a great deal to us. For the first time in a long time I'm not lying awake at night wondering how the hell we're going to keep this going.
It's a nice feeling to think that there might well be an exciting future in this.
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Then I guess you are the ones who look like idiots, or I'm sorry, having no business sense, for not being able to figure out what you need to price it at after all these years. I hope this stands out as a lesson to everyone else never to take preorder money for a batch of thousands on a device you haven't manufactured (or even finished designing).
Pandora is stuck in a bad cycle that'll make it very hard for it to ever achieve the volume it could have. Which is why it'd be great to see something with some real investment money behind it (investment, that can realistically be made back, not a "charity.") Isn't that what Pandora 2 is supposed to be doing with Kickstarter? You said that was a "necessary" for it too didn't you, but now we're on to funding it with current Pandora sales? If you're going to still be talking about all the debts to pay and original units to send out when it comes to Pandora 2's price then please don't release it until you've cleared that.
(and I hope we're not looking at $699 for the long-term DM3730 units now..)
Pandora is stuck in a bad cycle that'll make it very hard for it to ever achieve the volume it could have. Which is why it'd be great to see something with some real investment money behind it (investment, that can realistically be made back, not a "charity.") Isn't that what Pandora 2 is supposed to be doing with Kickstarter? You said that was a "necessary" for it too didn't you, but now we're on to funding it with current Pandora sales? If you're going to still be talking about all the debts to pay and original units to send out when it comes to Pandora 2's price then please don't release it until you've cleared that.
(and I hope we're not looking at $699 for the long-term DM3730 units now..)
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Some random thoughts:
- $700 looks really expensive - yes, its justifiable, but it seems expensive next to $19 for 3 years (+$99 deposit)
- Current sales of 1GHz units might not be sustained after the limited edition run
- The next few hundred owners should get good customer service, as the Two-Month Pandorians are probably not in the mood for giving OP free advertising
- ...good software and a gentle learning curve will also help - this is largely the community devs' problem
- People pay huge amounts for Apple stuff, (partly) because it feels solid and coherent (both hardware and software)
- The P1 does not have a casual appeal (old, ugly, etc) - people will probably buy it despite the high prices
- Lost customers is probably a good trade-off for the increased financial stability ready for future devices.
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Obviously, you have not ever had to run your own business (I did for 14 years)....nor do you understand the basics of product production and what economies of scale in production are about...
FWIW, I live in Silicon Valley and know what it's like to produce products as I had many clients in the hi-tech industry as well as what I learned from my father who helped manage a large hi-tech company.
So, I think I speak from many years of experience on this topic....
From what I've read, there have been only about 3-4000 Pandoras produced, right?
Apple is selling MILLIONS of iPhones, iPads, etc every quarter!
Do you have any idea of what that volume does for reducing your cost per unit compared to selling a few THOUSAND of a product?????
Buying materials and products in large volumes at very low cost, is why companies like Home Depot, who buy products by the traincar load have put most small hardware and building supply stores out of business. Same principle applies here....there's no way that Pandora can buy or place orders for materials and productions runs that achieve the economies of scale that Apple, Samsung, or other known companies receive. They won't get the same low volume pricing either. Therefore, there is no way they can price their products the same way that large companies do.
To me, the more appropriate analogy here is more like comparing the cost of buying a men's suit off the rack versus having a custom suit made for you. You can't expect to get a custom made suit for the same price as a ready made suit, at least where I live.....I know that this isn't exactly the same situation, but it is more like it than comparing Pandora to pricing of items from larger international companies. In many ways, Pandora is like a small custom design house that makes low volume unique niche market devices.
Bottomline, unless Pandora can ramp up production to a much higher level, I don't see how their pricing per unit can come down.
Anyway, just my 2 cents....
