What Desktop Environment is going to be used on this?


bzar

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But it should also mean the graphical work the cpu is not doing is done by the gpu more efficiently, so gpu can have much lower clock while only displaying 2D stuff, and the CPU can be lower frequency/cores as well. won't that save in the power?

I'm just thinking portable devices such as android phones and tablets are drawing in 3D surfaces the whole time and still get decent if not excellent battery life.
The CPU still has to create the graphical output (the contents to show), so I doubt it'll remove a lot of stress from the CPU.

AFAIK, X only updates the areas that change graphically, so the on normal usage, the CPU doesn't have much to do.
I'm not an expert, but I'd guess the amount of power needed to keep the GPU part of the SoC constantly powered up is greater than the extra amount needed to keep the CPU at a higher power level to handle rendering in software. At least in the common desktop cases where the stuff being drawn is fairly simple.
 
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EvilDragon

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I'm not an expert, but I'm not entirely convinced that Wayland will increase battery consumption, I think it'll increase battery life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtXQJ0c5q0k
Well, that video is not about X11.

It's about playing VIDEOS on X11 (and Wayland).

Yes, for stuff like that, Wayland is better suited. As mentioned: X11 updates the areas that change on the screen. A video changes 60 times per second in a large area of the desktop.

That is driving the CPU to high load.

But that's not the typical desktop usage.

When doing internet browsing, etc., there's not that much stuff going on (except if you want to play videos).

For video viewing, if you use fullscreen without X (OpenGL maybe, or the framebuffer directly), it should be similar to Wayland.

It's only an issue when watching videos in windows.
 

GizmoTheGreen

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There were some issues using wayland, framebuffer access or somesuch. It will probably be an option at some point, but we can't really jump in with both feet at this time without knowing whether it will be up to the task when we need it to be. Let's get a working system using known components first and then see if we can make all the same stuff work on Wayland.

Side note: XWayland doesn't emulate X. It creates an X server and runs the application inside it. The window contents of that X server are rendered by wayland.
Thanks for the correction!

TI is supporting Wayland with the current 3D drivers, but not X anymore, so that shouldn't be the issue.


However, wayland constantly uses the 3D driver, which means it's an additional power drain.


And yes, the current LXQT version runs very well. Haven't found anything I'm missing. But then again, I don't use Widgets, so if you use KDE because of widgets, you'll miss somdething.
But it should also mean the graphical work the cpu is not doing is done by the gpu more efficiently, so gpu can have much lower clock while only displaying 2D stuff, and the CPU can be lower frequency/cores as well. won't that save in the power?


I'm just thinking portable devices such as android phones and tablets are drawing in 3D surfaces the whole time and still get decent if not excellent battery life.
Android phones get a decent battery life?

I haven't seen one. When using the phone, it drains the battery like hell (never been able to "use" an Android phone for more than 3 - 4 hours).

Only in standby (which means no graphics are shown) the battery time is decent.

The CPU still has to create the graphical output (the contents to show), so I doubt it'll remove a lot of stress from the CPU.

AFAIK, X only updates the areas that change graphically, so the on normal usage, the CPU doesn't have much to do.
I'm just thinking portable devices such as android phones and tablets are drawing in 3D surfaces the whole time and still get decent if not excellent battery life.
Tell that to the battery pack that I have to keep permanently attached to my phone. :)
Well, I get about 4-5 hours on a 2500mah internal battery, and my "5200mah" battery pack charges it back up to full from 25% WHILE I use it, on a flight, two times.


so... how many mAh is the pandora battery/will pyra battery be again? ;)


That said, I don't think it would be too hard to choose between 2d driver and 3d driver with a script perhaps? think nvidia-optimus, but simpler. 


So when you know for sure you want a long battery time you could use the wayland CPU driver another user mentioned.


when you want snappiness and/or games, you'd switch to GPU.
 
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EvilDragon

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Well, I get about 4-5 hours on a 2500mah internal battery, and my "5200mah" battery pack charges it back up to full from 25% WHILE I use it, on a flight, two times.

so... how many mAh is the pandora battery/will pyra battery be again? ;)
And what are you doing with your phone?

I can use my Pandora for 15 - 20 hours, depending on what I do (listening to music, reading some texts, etc.)

And playing games, I often get 10 - 12 hours...

4 - 5 hours watching videos is nothing spectacular, as a lot runs via the hardware accellerator.

Can you play 4 - 5 hours games and emulators that make USE of the CPU?

That said, I don't think it would be too hard to choose between 2d driver and 3d driver with a script perhaps? think nvidia-optimus, but simpler.
It's not a different driver, it's a different GUI. It should be possible to choose between Wayland and X11, but we have to check how well the driver works with both (so it's more work for few people).
 

GizmoTheGreen

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Well, I get about 4-5 hours on a 2500mah internal battery, and my "5200mah" battery pack charges it back up to full from 25% WHILE I use it, on a flight, two times.


so... how many mAh is the pandora battery/will pyra battery be again? ;)
And what are you doing with your phone?


I can use my Pandora for 15 - 20 hours, depending on what I do (listening to music, reading some texts, etc.)


And playing games, I often get 10 - 12 hours...


4 - 5 hours watching videos is nothing spectacular, as a lot runs via the hardware accellerator.


Can you play 4 - 5 hours games and emulators that make USE of the CPU?

That said, I don't think it would be too hard to choose between 2d driver and 3d driver with a script perhaps? think nvidia-optimus, but simpler.
It's not a different driver, it's a different GUI. It should be possible to choose between Wayland and X11, but we have to check how well the driver works with both (so it's more work for few people).
Music, netflix and chatting/social media (if theflight has wifi, which this one did), emulators, such as n64, snes, gba.


Otherwise, preloaded movies (anime, live action, 720p usually).

As I understood it wayland could actually run on a software-driver, or hardware accelerated driver, you would essentially close wayland and switch between these two?


Well either way, I assume you're leaning towards LXQT which should support wayland, would anyone else want to experiement, no matter what route you decide to take in the end :)


I'm very excited for this device! :p
 

bzar

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As I understood it wayland could actually run on a software-driver, or hardware accelerated driver, you would essentially close wayland and switch between these two?
You'd pretty much have to restart the wayland compositor for that. AFAIK it can't just get stuff applications have in the GPU's memory and convert it to bitmaps and stuff in RAM and have everything work as usual.
 

mcobit

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Can you use software rendered wayland with the 2D accelerator in the Pyra?
 

EvilDragon

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Wayland already works on the Pyra, as TI supports it with their driver, as mentioned before.

So not sure what that Raspberry Pi will help us...?
 

myNewUsername

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I think this is a misunderstanding. Weston can now use a SW renderer called pixman. unless I am missing some finer points, this means wayland is not dependent on any sort of GL.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI4MTE 

Can you use software rendered wayland with the 2D accelerator in the Pyra?
I don't think so.

Wayland is based entirely on OpenGL, AFAIR, so any software rendering would be OpenGL software rendering.
 

EvilDragon

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Well, we're using pixman as well (both on Pandora and on Pyra), so if that would work, we should be able to make use of Wayland instead of X11.
 

myNewUsername

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Is that software renderer hardware accelerated 2d?
It is my impression that pixman is pure sw, but others will know.


Looking at https://gitorious.org/weston/pwithnalls-weston/commit/efaca34bc51bdfd578e0c5a656b5a68c7b06a85b, weston uses pixman instead of gl when started with the --use-pixman parameter. So, switching between cpu/gpu rendering is done with this.


I wanted to try this on my raspberry using the weston package that comes with maynard, but it didnt work. I assume pixman support was introduced later. I will look for some other way to test this.
 

mcobit

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Well, we're using pixman as well (both on Pandora and on Pyra), so if that would work, we should be able to make use of Wayland instead of X11.
That's what tge guy said in the linked talk. Pixman can use neon acceleration and if it can use the 2D acceleratorchip of the ompa 5 there shouldn't be a reason not to use wayland/xwayland on the pyra.


There could be some tests made if the gpu drains much more power when handling desktop stuff as the pixman rendering solution.
 

kaprikawn

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...there shouldn't be a reason not to use wayland/xwayland on the pyra....
...in the future, when it's ready.  I think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves.  Wayland is barely useable / highly experimental at the minute.  You pretty much need to use a rolling release distro (arch/gentoo etc.), a RebeccaBlackOS iso or the alpha of the next version of Fedora to use it currently.

I installed Fedora 21 to try it.  Then I remembered why I hate Gnome shell, came to the realisation that it wasn't offering me anything and deleted it again.

That's why I think it's advisable to choose a DE that has a clear roadmap to Wayland.  Wayland isn't useable yet, but it probably will be within about 2 months of the Pyra being released.  I know it's Linux and we can install anything we want ourselves, but it would be nice if the majority of users could reap the benefits of Wayland when they can be realised.
 
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