What a great start - prepare for the next level!

[Will Green]

I think we need a short 30-60 second video to grab people's attention.

Excellent idea. This would be ideal for sharing on Twitter and on IRC etc. Also useful for news organisations to embed in their stories.

 

[shaddim]

The Pyra scheme is either copyrighted by HNS or Dragonbox I guess. Different people have different priorities when it comes to open sourcing things. I'd guess myself that some sort of creative commons license might be the best fit for PCB schematics.

A Creative commons license, e.g CC-SA-BY 4.0 would be not a bad selection, while there are also hardware specific "open" licenses which might address the "exclusive right" reality of hardware schematics better. The http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cernohl/wiki CERN OHL or the TAPR open hardware license comes to mind (https://www.tapr.org/ohl.html)

(open source hardware specification currently in the creation: http://www.oshwa.org/2016/03/17/open-hardware-certification-mark-call-for-ideas/
Some blogpost with good thoughts on open hardware license selection http://www.open-electronics.org/how-to-choose-your-open-source-hardware-license/ )

 

[Will Green]

I've got some feedback based on showing people the Pyra web site: https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/

In no particular order:

• The project status wasn't obvious from the page - people didn't realise how far along the project was: this isn't some pie in the sky idea that's just been thought up - it's ready to manufacture
• Using the red Pyra is putting people off (though personally I like it) - using a more neutral (black?) Pyra on the homepage would be better
• Several people thought from the page that there were only renderings, rather than real hardware. Suggest you include a gallery of actual hardware photographs
• The "what you can do with it" and its best features should be higher up - make more of the gaming and use as a real computer (Debian), having USB ports and replaceable parts isn't worth anything if the computer itself isn't considered useful
• Include a short video on the main page to show off to Pyra and prove it's real
• It wasn't clear enough that it has optional modem/LTE functionality - suggest this is a separate box from Wi-Fi etc.
• When browsing the page Safari iOS the menu links are broken - a link to the store sort of appears on top of the technical specs link

Based on this I don't think the main web site is nearly good enough. It needs to be expanded and made more professional. People expect more when asked to pre-order a €500 computer. Those of us who've been following development for ages know how good the Pyra will be, but for new comers the web site is selling it short.

I mean this to be constructive feedback: it is not my intention to criticise the people who've been working hard to get Pyra into our hands

 

[Caine]

The project status wasn't obvious from the page - people didn't realise how far along the project was: this isn't some pie in the sky idea that's just been thought up - it's ready to manufacture

Is it? Parts haven't even been ordered yet. It is still unclear if 4 GB is even possible in the hardware, etc... There are still some steps remaining.

Using the red Pyra is putting people off (though personally I like it) - using a more neutral (black?) Pyra on the homepage would be better

I strongly agree with this one.

Several people thought from the page that there were only renderings, rather than real hardware. Suggest you include a gallery of actual hardware photographs

I suggest a better demo video which showcases some capabilities instead.

It wasn't clear enough that it has optional modem/LTE functionality - suggest this is a separate box from Wi-Fi etc.

I would say that in general there a tad too many different configurations with rather unclear differences and pricing.

 

[Razy]

I've got some feedback based on showing people the Pyra web site: https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/

In no particular order:

• The project status wasn't obvious from the page - people didn't realise how far along the project was: this isn't some pie in the sky idea that's just been thought up - it's ready to manufacture
• Using the red Pyra is putting people off (though personally I like it) - using a more neutral (black?) Pyra on the homepage would be better
• Several people thought from the page that there were only renderings, rather than real hardware. Suggest you include a gallery of actual hardware photographs
• The "what you can do with it" and its best features should be higher up - make more of the gaming and use as a real computer (Debian), having USB ports replaceable parts isn't worth anything if the computer itself isn't considered useful
• Include a short video on the main page to show off to Pyra and prove it's real
• It wasn't clear enough that it has optional modem/LTE functionality - suggest this is a separate box from Wi-Fi etc.
• When browsing the page Safari iOS the menu links are broken - a link to the store sort of appears on top of the technical specs link

Based on this I don't think the main web site is nearly good enough. It needs to be expanded and made more professional. People expect more when asked to pre-order a €500 computer. Those of us who've been following development for ages know how good the Pyra will be, but for new comers the web site is selling it short.

I mean this to be constructive feedback: it is not my intention to criticise the people who've been working hard to get Pyra into our hands

Some really good feedback there.

Above all, it should be made clear that we have successfully passed our basic goal in the pre-production phase and that we are definitely entering production within the year. This is going to happen, no matter what.

Maybe we could have watermarks on renders saying "Work in Progress" or "Subject to change", and perhaps photos of the prototype should indicate that it is exactly that, a "Prototype with clear case".

I don't know if it's proper etiquette to 'quote my own posts from other threads' but I'll put this here, if it helps anyone who's trying to explain what the Pyra is about. Tweak and adapt to suit your statements:

As far as the project's current status is concerned:

"The name of our device is 'Pyra' and it is a pocketable laptop designed around modularity, flexibility, openness and fairness. Above all, it is a community-driven endeavour. I'm just a member of said community, and I am also an early adopter of this device, being one of 600+ members who have given a downpayment for its first production run. Within 3 days of open pre-orders, the community alone has managed to reach the minimum order quantity for an initial production run, without external PR and without using Kickstarter, Indiegogo etc. This means that our base goal has already been reached; all of us who have pre-ordered will be getting our reserved device."

About confusion regarding first impressions:

"Due to the uniqueness of the 'Pyra', it is very possible for wrong first impressions to be formed and for false comparisons to be drawn with other devices if some basic facts aren't conveyed correctly. The biggest misunderstanding is about the cost: many people don't realise the actual cost of a truly user-owned device that has been produced in humane conditions using conflict-free resources, and designed by an indie hardware developer. Ultimately, when examining the Pyra, most people don't know what they're staring at. Some will dismiss it in trollish fashion because e.g. 'their smartphone has a better CPU', while many others will truly appreciate the scope of this endeavour and all of the features that are on offer."

About openness, fairness and "sticking it to The Man" :

"[Our design and production is] an example that illustrates the unfair practises of corporate giants who get away with selling crippled devices riddled with spyware and subsidised by ridiculous contracts, while polluting the environment and perpetuating a demand for what amounts to slave-labour ... The Pyra is manufactured in Europe and combines features that no megacorp would ever dare share in a single device ... It will be built to last, going directly against the doctrine of planned obsolescence, while it is also unbrickable and made explicitly for hacking and modding; the moment you grab a screwdriver, a whole community will peek over your shoulder with curiosity and advice.

It would also help if we show our previous success with the Pandora:

"The proven track record of our community's energy and effectiveness can be found in a device called 'OpenPandora', the Pyra's predecessor which is still going strong after so many years (since 2008), featuring a wealth of ported games, emulators and open source applications. We think that it's time for all this combined expertise to culminate into something even more incredible, something that will crack some walled gardens and send corporate heads spinning: A device produced fairly and owned solely by its end user."

Finally, it could be mentioned that "our PR campaign is ran openly out of a forum thread, rather than being conducted secretly inside a luxurious conference room!"

I hope this helps.

 

[Will Green]

Is it? Parts haven't even been ordered yet. It is still unclear if 4 GB is even possible in the hardware, etc... There are still some steps remaining.

Fair point. I got ahead of myself there. It's not far away from being ready to manufacture.

 

[rygD]

(FSF, EFF etc ... or not FSF: if the only thing left for Pandora being the GPU driver for a RYF certificate, the FSF could be included & motivated to fix this remaining problem )

I was under the impression that they wouldn't like the official repo since it would contain non-free software. Also, they may not be happy with some aspects of Debian.

 

[Grench]

I was under the impression that they wouldn't like the official repo since it would contain non-free software. Also, they may not be happy with some aspects of Debian.

I recommend anyone concerned about the Pyra and whether or not dealing with the FSF is appropriate to please read the several other threads regarding it. At that point, if they still feel like there is anything to discuss, please start a new thread in /General I.e. let's not get into it here in the news forum. It is a VERY contentious issue.

 

[PowerGod]

Is it right to write 4GB RAM on the press-kit without specifying them are still not tested ?

 

[rygD]

Wasn't the issue that ED wasn't sure he would have the order numbers required for 4GB models? Seeing as that is no longer an issue, why wouldn't the 4GB ones get made? If, somehow, there is a problem by adding more RAM I am pretty sure that will be fixed. Not sure what sort of problems people are expecting. We also don't have information and test results of the new display cable. Or the case tweaks. Or the logo plate. Or how the color of the plastic might make someone look at you while they are crossing the street and get distracted, resulting in them walking into a pole upon reaching the other side. Does all of that need to be mentioned as well?

Maybe I just need to take a week long break from the boards.

 

[shaddim]

I was under the impression that they wouldn't like the official repo since it would contain non-free software. Also, they may not be happy with some aspects of Debian.

Yes, but this would be only "OS + app" issues. The other one, the GPU driver is a "hard" one and not directly under our control as not the Pyra's communities core business. But potentially GNU's business and of interest : if they could buy really free hardware and put their own "fully" free GNU/linux distro on it they would be very glad as their current line up of free hardware is extremly short: http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom

On "simple" solution to the first problem would be a "free edition GNU/laptop" of the Pyra: instead of the gaming centred Pyra Debian & repo, just Triskel (+ our adapted kernel) and nothing else. For the second problem, hopefully GNU could be motivated making this a priority topic (www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/), as this would result in a GNU/free subnotebook for them.

I think it could be sold to them with limited effort, as they are in deperate need in hardware.

Getting a "open source hardware" certificate should be easier.

I recommend anyone concerned about the Pyra and whether or not dealing with the FSF is appropriate to please read the several other threads regarding it. At that point, if they still feel like there is anything to discuss, please start a new thread in /General I.e. let's not get into it here in the news forum. It is a VERY contentious issue.

I agree, dealing with the FSF is not easy. But on the other hand, they have a significant number of followers who might appreciate a GNU/Pyra subnotebook, very willing to accept higher prices for the freedom benefit.

 

[Grench]

I agree, dealing with the FSF is not easy.

Please drop the conversation in the news forums, read everything in the FSF conversations in /General then if you feel there is more to say, please start a thread there. The above conversation has already been hashed out and thankfully, to the best of my knowledge, the FSF will not be involved in ruining this device or community nor will the precious funds for producing the Pyra be diverted to padding the FSF's salaries through unnecessary licensing fees charged for a sticker that claims no license fees need to be paid. If you wish to debate this, let's take it back to the /General forum?

 

[shaddim]

If you wish to debate this, let's take it back to the /General forum?

OK, will stop here, sorry for de-railing . (I indeed read previous discussions, but not sure if I read everything there, as it looked to me not like a decided topic.)

 

[WizardStan]

I did'nt say anything about the license, but you're right, maybe I shouldn't leave the "GNU"-part in the quote as this might be misleading.
edit: I think it's clarified now

I know you didn't say anything about license. I meant it shouldn't be talked about AT ALL in any official manner until the license is established. As demonstrated by the next few posts (which are incredibly tame in comparison to what has been witnessed in the past) licensing debates can get hot, and if two factions get heated up about whether it should should be a GPL style, or if closed derivatives need to be permitted, or whatever, and ED eventually sides with one faction over the other, it could easily turn away dozens of potential customers.

 

[Klumpen]

I know you didn't say anything about license. I meant it shouldn't be talked about AT ALL in any official manner until the license is established. As demonstrated by the next few posts (which are incredibly tame in comparison to what has been witnessed in the past) licensing debates can get hot, and if two factions get heated up about whether it should should be a GPL style, or if closed derivatives need to be permitted, or whatever, and ED eventually sides with one faction over the other, it could easily turn away dozens of potential customers.

Make a new standard - problem solved.
How about Awesome License of Freedom in short ALF?

 

[rygD]

Make a new standard - problem solved.
How about Awesome License of Freedom in short ALF?

I don't like what your license requires. I disagree with how it restricts the rights of the original designer/user/people that want to make derivatives. I have a major problem with how it deals with the commercial side of things. I don't know why anyone would use a license like this.

 

[mecksg1]

The Verge got the news too early. Resulted in salty posts. They likely won't run another article unless they have a physical unit at hand, which is unfortunate.
I'd suggest Geek.com as they're known to cover independent devices from time to time.
And literally every news site you can post to that's tech related, is a good idea.

 

[ObiKKa]

Why are so few of the first 550 preorders currently set on the 4GB version of the Pyra variants? Isn't that a high risk as it's not yet been tested and that it could EAT so much into the Pyra's battery life (for each battery I know)? Did you know that the RAM and CPU are on the same socket so that if you need more RAM you could upgrade to a newer CPU with a bigger RAM amount in the future?

 

[WizardStan]

It can eat at most 10% of the battery, approximately 1 hour. That's a worst case scenario, assumes bad things about either the memory refresh, or that all 4GB are being fully utilized all the time. The reality is likely to be significantly lower, on the order of minutes.
Even if it were a full hour off the battery life, I'd still think that was a reasonable tradeoff.

 

[_wb_]

Why are so few of the first 550 preorders currently set on the 4GB version of the Pyra variants? Isn't that a high risk as it's not yet been tested and that it could EAT so much into the Pyra's battery life (for each battery I know)? Did you know that the RAM and CPU are on the same socket so that if you need more RAM you could upgrade to a newer CPU with a bigger RAM amount in the future?

I'm assuming that RAM refresh is only a tiny fraction of the power consumption. It should be insignificant for the usage time (i.e. when the screen is also powered, which will consumes orders of magnitude more power). It will have an influence on lid-closed standby time, but if that's too big of an issue, we can always implement suspend-to-disk to improve the standby time.

Also I'm assuming that it might be possible to disable half the RAM in software (at boot time or something) and switch it off completely, effectively turning the 4GB unit into a 2GB unit for all practical purposes.

Finally, I think that if the choice is between 2x1GB chips or 4x1GB chips, then it might be the case (but I don't know enough about this to be sure) that 4GB units will not just have more RAM, but also faster RAM since the half-filled configuration (2GB) might take less advantage of the available memory bandwidth.

So taking all these things into consideration, plus the relatively small price difference between the two options (only 5% extra), I think 4GB of RAM makes sense. While I don't think I'll really need the extra RAM, it never hurts. I think RAM is most likely to become the first performance bottleneck as the device ages, especially if we're going to use software that's intended for desktop/server hardware where RAM is usually available in generous quantities.