Wally
I am a banana!
I don't feel that WiiMotes should get their own section as they're a bluetooth peripheral and I've never seen anyone on the boards attempt to use one. WiiMote should be devoted to Bluetooth.
We have a new wiki main page :)
- Thread starter comradekingu
- Start date
The old mainpage had a clever way of getting around all the problems with the new main page(s): it was just a welcome-page with a nice welcome-message, links to some usefull pages for beginners, links to the community, and links to other languages. Most of this is entirely missing now, making the page rather uninviting in my opinion.
Why not having just a touch of friendliness on the mainpage, instead of squeezing every bit of information there is in the Wiki into one page? Things like this are pretty daunting for any newbie. Like so many Wikis this gives the impression of "INFORMATION HERE. Try Google if you don't understand the expert-stuff we have here." That's not what the Pandora community (or the Wiki) is like though, everyone is welcome and can ask questions, and in most cases there will be lots of usefull answers and not the generic "try searchng, n00b".
An unexperienced user looking at the main page, probably wouldn't expect to find any low level information he/she is looking for in the Wiki (although it's there).
Imagine you heard of a nice handheld, and you think "cool, maybe I can play games with it, do some surfing, maybe even write documents ... there's a Wiki, let's check it out!" and what you get is:
"Handheld game console miniature computer. Open, use it however you like.
No restrictions but freedom. Write, port, and release software, free of charge."
("We are Robots. This is Device. You can do things")
You probably miss the small links to the introductory stuff, so the next thing you read is:
HARDWARE DOCUMENTATION
with highly specialised information about Hardware Hacking and pin assignment ... next is
SOFTWARE PROJECTS
with highly specialized information about how to install an OS, build a kernel or ... ...
I'd come to the conclusion that this is not for me, because I want a handheld gaming-device, that maybe can do a bit more, with a nice community behind it ... not some obscure piece of hardware aimed at hardware hackers and professional Linux-experts ...
:unsure:
Yes, this is all stuff you can do, this is all important information that needs to be in the Wiki, but what is wrong with having just a simple welcome-page (as in "Hello, you are welcome here"), focusing on introductory information and then (as in "below that") have links to overview pages to the advance topics?
By the way: is the Wiki itself already in a good enough shape to waste so much energy on main-page? For example Screenshot is nice to know, but if you just want to make a screenshot it is probably more usefull to know that there are .PNDs for that?
Why not having just a touch of friendliness on the mainpage, instead of squeezing every bit of information there is in the Wiki into one page? Things like this are pretty daunting for any newbie. Like so many Wikis this gives the impression of "INFORMATION HERE. Try Google if you don't understand the expert-stuff we have here." That's not what the Pandora community (or the Wiki) is like though, everyone is welcome and can ask questions, and in most cases there will be lots of usefull answers and not the generic "try searchng, n00b".
An unexperienced user looking at the main page, probably wouldn't expect to find any low level information he/she is looking for in the Wiki (although it's there).
Imagine you heard of a nice handheld, and you think "cool, maybe I can play games with it, do some surfing, maybe even write documents ... there's a Wiki, let's check it out!" and what you get is:
"Handheld game console miniature computer. Open, use it however you like.
No restrictions but freedom. Write, port, and release software, free of charge."
("We are Robots. This is Device. You can do things")
You probably miss the small links to the introductory stuff, so the next thing you read is:
HARDWARE DOCUMENTATION
with highly specialised information about Hardware Hacking and pin assignment ... next is
SOFTWARE PROJECTS
with highly specialized information about how to install an OS, build a kernel or ... ...
I'd come to the conclusion that this is not for me, because I want a handheld gaming-device, that maybe can do a bit more, with a nice community behind it ... not some obscure piece of hardware aimed at hardware hackers and professional Linux-experts ...
:unsure:
Yes, this is all stuff you can do, this is all important information that needs to be in the Wiki, but what is wrong with having just a simple welcome-page (as in "Hello, you are welcome here"), focusing on introductory information and then (as in "below that") have links to overview pages to the advance topics?
By the way: is the Wiki itself already in a good enough shape to waste so much energy on main-page? For example Screenshot is nice to know, but if you just want to make a screenshot it is probably more usefull to know that there are .PNDs for that?
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Rockthesmurf
Advanced Member
Some random comments:
- The image of the Pandora is too small, as F_Slim said above, I feel the first page should be a friendly welcome to new users (or potential new users) page. A reasonable sized Pandora with some key information that might convince a potential user to buy, or give a new user a bunch of stuff to do/think about with their Pandora.
- The 'Production Timeline' 'Pandora history' 'Size Comparisons' text looks like a single link (next to no gap between them and no visible delimiter).
- Minor, but why does every word in 2. above have a capital first letter except history?
- As a new user/potential new user, I don't feel that the first links are that interesting, production timelines, history, size comparisons. I feel the interesting stuff is the basics the Pandora can do
- It feels weird to have so little on the main page without expanding.
- The order of the expandable lists doesn't seem right, as in hardware documentation doesn't feel like the most important things to draw people to.
- Having the expandable titles in CAPITAL LETTERS SEEMS A BIT STRANGE TO ME. Capitals are harder to read and look like someone is shouting.
- The Pandora logo (to the right of user manual etc.) seems a bit 'random'. As in the Wiki has the logo at the top left anyway, it seems odd to have the logo random placed again with no caption or reasoning.
- The opening text feels a bit (please don't take this offensively, but for lack of better word) boring. I don't know the perfect thing to replace it with (sorry) but it is like what excites people most about the Pandora? What do people spend most time doing on their Pandora? I feel like the top 'snag line' should be something that excites new users and potential customers.
- The 'TEAM' link at the bottom seems a bit weird/random. Instead of an expandable list it is a link that doesn't appear to have any alignment that fits with the page?
- Below team there are more links, I don't have a sense why these links are down here rather than at the top?
- The 'Wiki TODO' and 'Donations' again look like a single link
- I am not sure TODO should be in capitals, it looks wrong to me, plus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todo seems to agree.
- The footer (disclaimer) feels like it should be separated a bit from the body of the page (spacing, horizontal line, something?)
- Once the lists are expanded, you get the table views, I am not sure how readable these are? Having text separated into columns with big gaps inbetween, when I look carefully I can see they are sort of grouped, but to me it is quite hard to read/find information.
- Related to 15. above, I wonder if when you expand emulators if it would be easier/make more sense if it has a list of systems, or at least popular systems, with the available emulators below. To me this makes more sense, but I appreciate others may not agree.
- When clicking a link from the expanded list (which takes you to a new page) and then clicking 'back' in the browser, the list is then collapsed. It doesn't lead to a very nice browsing experience. I just checked out one of the emulators, and then went back to check out the next one to find everything was collapsed.
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fusion_power
Advanced Member
I hope it's a in progress state, usualy you first setup the structure, then polish the design itself. But even the structure is not very clear. There is alot of wasted space to the right, I would like to see more open categories, not hidden into dropdown menus. Again, the old Mainpage was fine there, why change this layout? I also don't see any sorting in the sheets, by alphabet for instance. Oh, and the green text colour does not fit in in any way to be honest.
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Wally
I am a banana!
I think we need to focus on what content we want to offer on the main page THEN work on the structure.
I also prefer the old style front page with the fancy borders and stuff myself, apparently it didn't fit on the Pandora Screen or something?
In the previous post nobody saw or cared about I stated I had started "cleaning up" the front page that Comrade had started.
You can see it here http://pandorawiki.org/Rearranged_Main
I've also made a few new sections which defines emulators by company.. So if you want Nintendo you go to http://pandorawiki.org/Emulators/Nintendo and so forth, Haven't really done much with these yet but would like to mention maybe 1 - 2 emulators of each type if possible There's plenty of room for Compatibility list links as well
I also prefer the old style front page with the fancy borders and stuff myself, apparently it didn't fit on the Pandora Screen or something?
In the previous post nobody saw or cared about
I stated I had started "cleaning up" the front page that Comrade had started. You can see it here http://pandorawiki.org/Rearranged_Main
I've also made a few new sections which defines emulators by company.. So if you want Nintendo you go to http://pandorawiki.org/Emulators/Nintendo and so forth, Haven't really done much with these yet but would like to mention maybe 1 - 2 emulators of each type if possible
There's plenty of room for Compatibility list links as well
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I've used one with Pandora, pretty neat as a NES/Master System controller. What i really want to see is similar use of the WiiU Pro Controller, because it has two sets of shoulder buttons i can see it having many uses. Apologies for the slight thread derailment.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
I know its possible to have a hidden table within a table. then emulators could be under software, and more fittingly, the systems could be divided by maker. Thank you for the input, i didnt get to read it all, but i will look into it. Crafts message was very good and constructive.
-Software
+Emulators
/+nintendo
+sega
+sony
+GUI
+operating systems
The flags for different languages were friendly, but they didnt do much.
I think we are at a point where a new wikimedia version is needed, because just about all formatting is either not supported or needs nonstandard ways of doing things, and it also behaves in nonstandard ways.
Edit: this needs a new mediawiki version, right now we have
mw collapsible
But we need
wikitable collapsible
Lots of cool stuff can be done, inner and outer collapsible elements, sorting, the works.
Maybe it could be done anyways, most probably i dont think so (and it wouldnt work right) and it would maybe break anyhow. So update is next on my list before anything else.
-Software
+Emulators
/+nintendo
+sega
+sony
+GUI
+operating systems
The flags for different languages were friendly, but they didnt do much.
I think we are at a point where a new wikimedia version is needed, because just about all formatting is either not supported or needs nonstandard ways of doing things, and it also behaves in nonstandard ways.
Edit: this needs a new mediawiki version, right now we have
mw collapsible
But we need
wikitable collapsible
Lots of cool stuff can be done, inner and outer collapsible elements, sorting, the works.
Maybe it could be done anyways, most probably i dont think so (and it wouldnt work right) and it would maybe break anyhow. So update is next on my list before anything else.
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I think a message along the lines of:
Welcome to the openpandora wiki. This is an unofficial source of reference material for your openpandora handheld computer. For foobar click the floggle-toggle, while wompoms can be found on the second floor. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Donec a diam lectus. Sed sit amet ipsum mauris. Maecenas congue ligula ac quam viverra nec consectetur ante hendrerit. Donec et mollis dolor. Praesent et diam eget libero egestas mattis sit amet vitae augue. Nam tincidunt congue enim, ut porta lorem lacinia consectetur.
Would be good.
Welcome to the openpandora wiki. This is an unofficial source of reference material for your openpandora handheld computer. For foobar click the floggle-toggle, while wompoms can be found on the second floor. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Donec a diam lectus. Sed sit amet ipsum mauris. Maecenas congue ligula ac quam viverra nec consectetur ante hendrerit. Donec et mollis dolor. Praesent et diam eget libero egestas mattis sit amet vitae augue. Nam tincidunt congue enim, ut porta lorem lacinia consectetur.
Would be good.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
I tried fixing some of the things, but its really down to a new mediawiki version (1.22) now to do anything, use formatting, have it work etc. Fancy things like floating images. Or even upload images, (or any files) which is also broken, cant upload the glorious FZERO images.
Things to do:
MEME4ALL still standing, and that window rename/moving from firstpost.
Also:
Find someone who has never seen a pandora and show them the wiki, take note.
If you are a new/novice user, tell us what you think of the wiki. Want to know exactly what you think as you are thinking it.
I open up the page, click what, understand what, dont understand what, what is unclear, what could be better, how, etc
This goes for advanced users too.
Things to do:
MEME4ALL still standing, and that window rename/moving from firstpost.
Also:
Find someone who has never seen a pandora and show them the wiki, take note.
If you are a new/novice user, tell us what you think of the wiki. Want to know exactly what you think as you are thinking it.
I open up the page, click what, understand what, dont understand what, what is unclear, what could be better, how, etc
This goes for advanced users too.
Last edited by a moderator:
comradekingu
Glowing ember
OK, report from my mum. Most useful feedback.
She understands its a handheld computer, and thus size. That it has full keyboard.
Pandora quickstart and user manual needs to be bigger, because the collapsible elements draw attention.
Collapsible elements work, the things in them work, categories that are links, not so much.
Purple is good for drawing attention versus blue, and it makes it apparant that the expand is something else.
Logo needs to express "click for logoinfo" like it did earlier, that wasnt evident
/Pandora has lost of crazy info thats a bit too much, we need to focus on the basics where the basics are meant to go
she doesnt know what gp32 is or gp2x.
/Quickstart was superduper, codec pack, Playing music, Applications, switching gui needs to go(she figured out XFCE was something to do with graphical interface,but that needs clarification), need to make a point of when its switched on, how.
/User manual duplicated the tech spec in /pandora which is again exactly the same as http://pandorawiki.org/Hardware_documentation
What is, GUI, port? Moms dont know.
Random page option is dumb. Second box more important than first lefthand box.
Things she suggested: A page where we explain all the buttons.
Different models, prices, where to buy.
Get a better picture of pandora, (cant upload it for now though) but we could have one ready and suggest how it would be better.
A frame of reference (like a common object next to it) It also needs to show something interesting onscreen.
She understands its a handheld computer, and thus size. That it has full keyboard.
Pandora quickstart and user manual needs to be bigger, because the collapsible elements draw attention.
Collapsible elements work, the things in them work, categories that are links, not so much.
Purple is good for drawing attention versus blue, and it makes it apparant that the expand is something else.
Logo needs to express "click for logoinfo" like it did earlier, that wasnt evident
/Pandora has lost of crazy info thats a bit too much, we need to focus on the basics where the basics are meant to go
she doesnt know what gp32 is or gp2x.
/Quickstart was superduper, codec pack, Playing music, Applications, switching gui needs to go(she figured out XFCE was something to do with graphical interface,but that needs clarification), need to make a point of when its switched on, how.
/User manual duplicated the tech spec in /pandora which is again exactly the same as http://pandorawiki.org/Hardware_documentation
What is, GUI, port? Moms dont know.
Random page option is dumb. Second box more important than first lefthand box.
Things she suggested: A page where we explain all the buttons.
Different models, prices, where to buy.
Get a better picture of pandora, (cant upload it for now though) but we could have one ready and suggest how it would be better.
A frame of reference (like a common object next to it) It also needs to show something interesting onscreen.
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Well, we can expect every user who visits the Wiki that he knows what GUI and a port is, so the feedback from your Mum is not that much helpful here.
However, we WILL need some design, and of course some proper structure first.
I will update to a newer Wiki version if that helps you.
One question upfront though:
Do ALL THE OLD URLs still work fine?
Does ALL the combination of all things make sense here?
I just checked my own page:
http://pandorawiki.org/Firmware
It should simply link to the latest firmware version - instead, it first presents hundreds of Content items upfront (most of which are of no interest to the normal user) and THEN shows the info about the latest firmware.
A bit further down it says "
SuperZaxxon Final
Jun 28 2012 SuperZaxxon final released CHECK ON BOARDS FOR LATEST"
Which does not even make sense, as the LATEST version of the firmware will always be on the Wiki on that exact same page, not the boards.
Then we've got building instructions and old revisions of the firmware on the very same page...
What the heck?
Building instructions should be a topic in the development section (no normal user builds the firmware).
Then there are bugreports for Zaxxon (which should be in a completely different section, totally outdated) and in the end an introduction to the firmware itself.
The simple "Get the latest Firmware"-Page has turned into a whole mess of information that does not really belong here and scares the common user away...
Is THAT what all that merging is supposed to be?
If yes, then I'm totally against it.
It's fine having information that belongs together in one huge topic, if it makes sense.
But building instructions (for developers) combined with the firmware download section (for normal users) and a huge table of contents at the beginning (why is it at the beginning and not to the right side, like with Wikipedia, for example) just makes no sense.
However, we WILL need some design, and of course some proper structure first.
I will update to a newer Wiki version if that helps you.
One question upfront though:
Do ALL THE OLD URLs still work fine?
Does ALL the combination of all things make sense here?
I just checked my own page:
http://pandorawiki.org/Firmware
It should simply link to the latest firmware version - instead, it first presents hundreds of Content items upfront (most of which are of no interest to the normal user) and THEN shows the info about the latest firmware.
A bit further down it says "
SuperZaxxon Final
Jun 28 2012 SuperZaxxon final released CHECK ON BOARDS FOR LATEST"
Which does not even make sense, as the LATEST version of the firmware will always be on the Wiki on that exact same page, not the boards.
Then we've got building instructions and old revisions of the firmware on the very same page...
What the heck?
Building instructions should be a topic in the development section (no normal user builds the firmware).
Then there are bugreports for Zaxxon (which should be in a completely different section, totally outdated) and in the end an introduction to the firmware itself.
The simple "Get the latest Firmware"-Page has turned into a whole mess of information that does not really belong here and scares the common user away...
Is THAT what all that merging is supposed to be?
If yes, then I'm totally against it.
It's fine having information that belongs together in one huge topic, if it makes sense.
But building instructions (for developers) combined with the firmware download section (for normal users) and a huge table of contents at the beginning (why is it at the beginning and not to the right side, like with Wikipedia, for example) just makes no sense.
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levi
Still fresh, damnit!
Many of the old URLs unfortunately got broken back in September. I've patched in a few redirects to appropriate information where I've been told that people were expecting to find things, but without knowing where people were linking and what they were expecting to find there it's not possible to code in a simple redirect.
Also, it may be worth noting that a IP board update broke 90% of the links to specific posts from the wiki, of which there are many. Again, I've patched a few but it's a slow process.
I'm still of the opinion that what happened in September was bad and wrong, but since then it's been acknowledged that there is a better way to do things, but unfortunately we can't undo the September changes short of blatting over all changes since with a backup. I moaned about it then, but am now definitely more in the mindset of trying to fix up the new wiki structure (which will be an improvement, I believe) and hopefully other people with more design skills than me can improve the feel of the front page.
Also, it may be worth noting that a IP board update broke 90% of the links to specific posts from the wiki, of which there are many. Again, I've patched a few but it's a slow process.
I'm still of the opinion that what happened in September was bad and wrong, but since then it's been acknowledged that there is a better way to do things, but unfortunately we can't undo the September changes short of blatting over all changes since with a backup. I moaned about it then, but am now definitely more in the mindset of trying to fix up the new wiki structure (which will be an improvement, I believe) and hopefully other people with more design skills than me can improve the feel of the front page.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Not all of the redirects were good, so it makes no sense to keep all. If some of the missing ones are needed I can always resurrect them, which is a lot less work. Many considerations have been made, instead of explaining everything in detail, the result is what it is, and that works. If you want to involve yourselves in the process while its happening, please do, we would like nothing more.
I wonder why the codec pack and the Ångström releases aren't on the repo.
Then the info about the codec pack could be there, instead of on the quickstart page and the angstrom page. (Edit: it used to be op .org /portal/downloads/CodecPack.pnd)
And then the link on the wiki to angstrom could direct to the repo, (with md5sums), so that one would not have to keep updating the link from the wiki. The repo does revision history, no need to reimplement that. (Edit: from what i remember the download link to angstrom didnt change with versions, glad that has now changed)
From what I remember we settled upon grouping, (like the hallmark debian page) and renaming. Firmware was the best page, but it didnt have the best name since its technically incorrect. Having lots of pages that largely do the same doesnt make sense either, id rather be slightly confused for the time it takes to clear that page than annoyed there are 5 pages like it, having to sort through every one and cross check.
Rather do that just once and make sure to meanwhile edit it so that others can enjoy.
I have removed the most glaring redundancies now.
Edit: It looks ok now, there you go internet, hours of time from me, in turn meaning someone else doesnt have to spend their time in vain.
I wonder why the codec pack and the Ångström releases aren't on the repo.
Then the info about the codec pack could be there, instead of on the quickstart page and the angstrom page. (Edit: it used to be op .org /portal/downloads/CodecPack.pnd)
And then the link on the wiki to angstrom could direct to the repo, (with md5sums), so that one would not have to keep updating the link from the wiki. The repo does revision history, no need to reimplement that. (Edit: from what i remember the download link to angstrom didnt change with versions, glad that has now changed)
From what I remember we settled upon grouping, (like the hallmark debian page) and renaming. Firmware was the best page, but it didnt have the best name since its technically incorrect. Having lots of pages that largely do the same doesnt make sense either, id rather be slightly confused for the time it takes to clear that page than annoyed there are 5 pages like it, having to sort through every one and cross check.
Rather do that just once and make sure to meanwhile edit it so that others can enjoy.
I have removed the most glaring redundancies now.
Edit: It looks ok now, there you go internet, hours of time from me, in turn meaning someone else doesnt have to spend their time in vain.
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Okay, so the way to move forward from here on will be to fix all those huge messy pages now and make them more clean and userfriendly.
levi
Still fresh, damnit!
The repo only handles PNDs, so it can't take the OS releases - indeed any of the tools that use the repo would not be able to handle an OS release. The codec pack is a better candidate - I suspect the only reason it's not on the repo is that it's not been updated since the repo came into being.
ShleeDragon
Pro-Catflip
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2010
- Messages
- 1,749
You're all nuts.
Fzero
Advanced Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2010
- Messages
- 4,702
Last night I was looking at this MediaWiki thing, as never used them before [only ever viewed Wiki sites]
I think the expandable content looks nicer when not actually showing the word 'expand/collapse' next to it, perhaps if you set it to a much smaller text size, but I would do away with it altogether.
Seen you can use images as well which are then clicked on to show the expanded content which looks nice
I think the expandable content looks nicer when not actually showing the word 'expand/collapse' next to it, perhaps if you set it to a much smaller text size, but I would do away with it altogether.
Seen you can use images as well which are then clicked on to show the expanded content which looks nice
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Problem is that is an old and defunct table function that doesnt work very well. The new mediawiki version (1.22) has support for one that looks sweet. It even supports no border on the boxen.
thatgui
Advanced Member
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2009
- Messages
- 3,048
- Could the page width be made more dynamic ? I guess the current width is used to acommodate the Pandora screen, but looks awkward if the screen resolution is much higher.
- I still think there is too much information on that page. It looks more like a table of content than a launchpad into the wiki
- Is a non javascript version possible ?
Wally
I am a banana!
The page i'm testing at the moment for some reason doesn't behave on the Pandora but works fine on another platform.
Tables are supposed to be dynamic and shrink to the size of the screen but this one goes outside of the browser page.. its weird and it appears to only happen on all portable devices.. including iOS... I've since removed three columns so we have 6 workable fields on the screen but sadly my table skill sucks.
http://pandorawiki.org/Wally_Main is the page
Tables are supposed to be dynamic and shrink to the size of the screen but this one goes outside of the browser page.. its weird and it appears to only happen on all portable devices.. including iOS... I've since removed three columns so we have 6 workable fields on the screen but sadly my table skill sucks.
http://pandorawiki.org/Wally_Main is the page
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