War in Ukraine

[LoopStar]

From reading that, thermobaric weapons don't seem to be ICBMs or even self guided missiles capable of crossing great oceans yet. Russia could probably poke one of those at a Poilish city if they felt like starting that particular clusterfuck, but I reckon America are safe from them as of yet.

America is safe for now, that’s right, but here in Europe I fear Russia could potentially do a lot of damage using thermobaric devices.

 

[netcat]

What's worse giving up a bit of land and declaring neutrality or this blitzkrieg?

The situation is caused by egomaniac posturing presidents who want to go down in history. Putins a complete bastard and Zelensky is letting his country get decimated in hopes of being a hero. They are both fucking Ukrainians for personal gain. Both awful awful awful.

EDIT: Biden too. Acting all tough but could potentially make things much much worse.

 

[levi]

Zelensky isn't letting his country get decimated. Ukrainians are doing that by themselves. Zelensky could have said it should only be the military fighting and they shouldn't be recruiting civilians the way they are, but if the civilians want to defend their cities, that would win him no brownie points I suppose. Biden is claimed to be acting tough, but if he were really tough the way Putin is, he'd be sending in jets to defend ukraine's sky, which he hasn't done yet.

 

[netcat]

Actually I think you're right about Biden.

 

[fusion_power]

See all the example of western propaganda here:

What nobody told you about Ukraine – mind blowing!

Shocking evidence of how the media worldwide is lying to humanity about what is really going on with Ukraine and Russia. A must see!

www.stopworldcontrol.com

Here's a view of the real Ukraine (part of it, because the other part is 8 years of bombing the others):

You quote RUSSIA TODAY? Seriosuly?

 

[levi]

Yes, I thought the same. Doesn't matter if russia is even supplying tins to red salmon to some residents of Melitopol which was Ukranian but since the invasion is under control of the Russians.

But at the same time I thought is to ridiculous to quote that as source of worth in this forum to be so much a joke or otherwise beyond the pail that I failed to respond.

 

[TeDaDeS]

Japan reported Russia is sending boats with vehicles for reinforcements, probably arriving via Black sea. Sounds like they are either stepping up their efforts or they aren't progressing as they suppose to.

 

[pyrat]

From reading that, thermobaric weapons don't seem to be ICBMs or even self guided missiles capable of crossing great oceans yet. Russia could probably poke one of those at a Poilish city if they felt like starting that particular clusterfuck, but I reckon America are safe from them as of yet.

OK, I have no clue on weapons, but can't Russia bomb USA with anything at all from submarines or those high-speed cruise missiles or something ? I they can then it doesn't matter that ICBMs can't and if they can't I'm curious why. Is it because it is materially difficult to achieve, or because they consider that they already have nukes for further targets, and they don't care about the rainfall from nukes if they explode far enough ? I really don't know squat about these things.
Also USA is far from Russia in the maps I'm used to see (eurocentric), but It's not that far in the Bering strait (was that the name, between Alaska and Kamchatka?)

but if he were really tough the way Putin is, he'd be sending in jets

Also, don't know. But I thought Ukranian pilots can't pilot any plane USA has ? Biden would need help from some former Warsaw Pact country who has Migs or so. They tried with Poland but Borrell (EU foreign affairs comminar) blew it up by speaking we he shouldn't ?
The point being that Biden alone can't send any planes that the Ukranians can use. Unless he sends American pilots along, and then it's WW3. At least I thought I understood it so...

Japan reported Russia is sending boats with vehicles for reinforcements, probably arriving via Black sea. Sounds like they are either stepping up their efforts or they aren't progressing as they suppose to.

I read somewhere they were seeing columns of nonarmoured vehicles (normal cars and trucks) from inside Russia being sent to the border with Ukraine (or to Belarus?). I couldn't tell whether it was because they didn't have enough armoured vehicles to send (or they needed elsewhere, Russia has long borders) or because they weight less and may be more useful with so much mud, since Ukrainan javelins will break tanks anyway.

I read somewhere that both Russians and Ukrainians have each wasted 90% of their war hardware so far (of the part of the hardware in Ukraine, Russia has more stuff in Russia). So Russia is bringing more hardware from Russia and Ukraine keeps bringing in more hardware from allies. I always thought engineers working to build destructive devices are dumb or forget their second law of thermodynamics. Why so much trouble building stuff to destroy ? Everything destroys itself alone, rusts and rots. Bah...I guess both sides silly military are happy that they get to break their old toys and get new toys. Sigh.

 

[FBnil]

You quote RUSSIA TODAY? Seriously?

Something wrong with that? Or do you believe in censorship, like the Ministry of Truth in 1984?
Because if you do, then you would have no problems of a state judging a person without that person being able to defend itself. (or variations, where people don't get judged, just held prisoner, like in Guantanamo bay).
The visible part of this war, just like other wars, is just the tip of the iceberg. There's lot's going on at the invisible level to get to a war, and to sustain a war.

From that post, I hope you saw that Arabs said: Hey, that footage is from my city and not from Ukraine, with proof. (and they even don't say it's an image or footage of USA bombing the hell out of that city - bringing freedom. So why can't Russia bring freedom?).
Remove your bias by actually watching AlJazeera, CNN and RT. (in order to find the truth and find your news filter for each one of the news outlets). Don't dismiss it beforehand.

Same with people that say they are ok with freedom of speech. But then react against it when the Church of Satan wants to inform the population about itself. I want freedom of speech/expression, just as long as it's what I value?

 

[TeDaDeS]

Something wrong with that? Or do you believe in censorship, like the Ministry of Truth in 1984?
Because if you do, then you would have no problems of a state judging a person without that person being able to defend itself. (or variations, where people don't get judged, just held prisoner, like in Guantanamo bay).
The visible part of this war, just like other wars, is just the tip of the iceberg. There's lot's going on at the invisible level to get to a war, and to sustain a war.

From that post, I hope you saw that Arabs said: Hey, that footage is from my city and not from Ukraine, with proof. (and they even don't say it's an image or footage of USA bombing the hell out of that city - bringing freedom. So why can't Russia bring freedom?).
Remove your bias by actually watching AlJazeera, CNN and RT. (in order to find the truth and find your news filter for each one of the news outlets). Don't dismiss it beforehand.

Same with people that say they are ok with freedom of speech. But then react against it when the Church of Satan wants to inform the population about itself. I want freedom of speech/expression, just as long as it's what I value?

While I fully agree with not censoring I also think RT is more likely to spin this military action as a positive thing. I'm sure Russia is doing 'positive' things also, but it's mostly overshadowed by the bad.
This 'bad' part is probably exaggerated on the western news also. Truth will be somewhat more moderate, but even then I don't see the military actions as a positive thing weighing more then any helpful thing they might be doing.
If there would be any balance it could add to the news cycle it would be showing some humanity from the Russian side. But it might make it even more sad, it would display the pointless act of people killing each other.

 

[fusion_power]

Something wrong with that? Or do you believe in censorship, like the Ministry of Truth in 1984?
Because if you do, then you would have no problems of a state judging a person without that person being able to defend itself. (or variations, where people don't get judged, just held prisoner, like in Guantanamo bay).
The visible part of this war, just like other wars, is just the tip of the iceberg. There's lot's going on at the invisible level to get to a war, and to sustain a war.

From that post, I hope you saw that Arabs said: Hey, that footage is from my city and not from Ukraine, with proof. (and they even don't say it's an image or footage of USA bombing the hell out of that city - bringing freedom. So why can't Russia bring freedom?).
Remove your bias by actually watching AlJazeera, CNN and RT. (in order to find the truth and find your news filter for each one of the news outlets). Don't dismiss it beforehand.

Same with people that say they are ok with freedom of speech. But then react against it when the Church of Satan wants to inform the population about itself. I want freedom of speech/expression, just as long as it's what I value?

As always, "freedom of speech" ends where lying and insulting of others begins. Except in the USA maybe.
There is no valid argument to rely on RT, especially not in those days, sorry. You quote RT, a Russian Government Propaganda Channel in times of war, where the exact same Russian government is the aggressor. What's next, searching Iranian "Press TV" for opinions about Israel? Or FOX TV about basically anything that's not far right, racist or white?
by the way, I usually search for various news sources and more points of view, never rely on one source. but when 99% cover a story but 1% not, I tend to trust the 99%, not the 1%. The problem is, some people may not do this and maybe believe what they see on RT & Co. Mostly Putin-Fans.

 

[netcat]

This is discussion is not new. Recall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

Epistemology (/ɪˌpɪstəˈmɒlədʒi/ (listen); from Ancient Greek ἐπιστήμη (epistḗmē) 'knowledge', and -logy) is the branch of philosophy concerned with knowledge. Epistemologists study the nature, origin, scope of knowledge, epistemic justification, the rationality of belief, and various related issues. Epistemology is considered a major subfield of philosophy, along with other major subfields such as ethics, logic, and metaphysics.[1]

Debates in epistemology are generally clustered around four core areas:[2][3][4]

1. The philosophical analysis of the nature of knowledge and the conditions required for a belief to constitute knowledge, such as truth and justification
2. Potential sources of knowledge and justified belief, such as perception, reason, memory, and testimony
3. The structure of a body of knowledge or justified belief, including whether all justified beliefs must be derived from justified foundational beliefs or whether justification requires only a coherent set of beliefs
4. Philosophical skepticism, which questions the possibility of knowledge, and related problems, such as whether skepticism poses a threat to our ordinary knowledge claims and whether it is possible to refute skeptical arguments

 

[FBnil]

As always, "freedom of speech" ends where lying and insulting of others begins. Except in the USA maybe.
There is no valid argument to rely on RT, especially not in those days, sorry. You quote RT, a Russian Government Propaganda Channel in times of war, where the exact same Russian government is the aggressor. What's next, searching Iranian "Press TV" for opinions about Israel? Or FOX TV about basically anything that's not far right, racist or white?
by the way, I usually search for various news sources and more points of view, never rely on one source. but when 99% cover a story but 1% not, I tend to trust the 99%, not the 1%. The problem is, some people may not do this and maybe believe what they see on RT & Co. Mostly Putin-Fans.

You sound quite irrational. Ever heard of "know thy enemy"?

You tend to trust the 99%, not the 1%. Interesting. Because you additionally discard part of the information, if it does not suit you.
You DO understand that in different parts of the world, the average trust put on different news outlets is not in the same ratio, right? So that 99% of yours is the equivalent on that Jihadist that does not watch western news because "There is no valid argument to rely on" them. And so, you and that jihadist are the same. Just for your piece of mind, you KNOWINGLY want to be brainwashed by "your" faction.

This here is not a simple black-white war. There is no black+white here. It's all shades of gray (more than 50).


Take this piece of news (in the tweet, in the reply is the English transcript of what is being said). He's not lying (if he intents to proceed with deed and not only word) and he's not insulting.

So is this newscaster justified to say this? Are, say, Iraki people justified to bomb the US back (because of the non-existing weapons of mass destruction - Europe said so too, but USA did not listen). An eye for an eye? Iraki children died too. We have footage thanks to wikileaks ("dont bring your children to a warzone" - US military).


In the following link are nice tidbits of Ukraine info. I liked the Nestle one. Where the withdrawal of all products of Nestle would produce famine (because they own everything). And the fact that people now rally against Nestle, while it always has been an evil company which people with a bit of selfrespect would avoid. Read the comments. Quite enlightening.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

>>As always, "freedom of speech" ends where lying and insulting of others begins.
I disagree.
Just plain lying? Your parents told you the truth about santa claus? (Yule has nothing to do with Christ)
And you can't state truth while being insulting? Really? I mean, sure, it degrades the message, and is less graceful, but really? No satire for you then...

>>Except in the USA maybe.
You mean those mean roasting shows?
Kidding aside, why is it an exception?

 

[FBnil]

I'm sure Russia is doing 'positive' things also, but it's mostly overshadowed by the bad.

Yes, we see the Russian mayority of the population is (not openly, because it is too dangerous) against the war. We see the Russian military being unmotivated younglings (and Ukranians very motivated). We see Russian Generals purposefully not doing their best, and getting fired.
And we see civilians being hurt. (and to be honest, I would not know who is shooting who)
We also do not see cities being nuked yet, which is good. (but this might be because it would trigger an escalation by the west).
And so, what purpose does this war serve? (or: what's taking so long to talk it out)

This is discussion is not new. Recall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

1. The philosophical analysis of the nature of knowledge and the conditions required for a belief to constitute knowledge, such as truth and justification
2. Potential sources of knowledge and justified belief, such as perception, reason, memory, and testimony
3. The structure of a body of knowledge or justified belief, including whether all justified beliefs must be derived from justified foundational beliefs or whether justification requires only a coherent set of beliefs
4. Philosophical skepticism, which questions the possibility of knowledge, and related problems, such as whether skepticism poses a threat to our ordinary knowledge claims and whether it is possible to refute skeptical arguments

hmm... yes, quite.

 

[netcat]

It's not about choosing your news sources but questioning everything. If you trust any news source unflinchingly you are a muppet, sorry. Any news source can mix in populist bullshit, most obviously for me the BBC. But I still value it overall. I do love the Economist magazine but appreciate full well they are over zealous about free markets. I remember 20 some years ago they were against tree huggers and instead thought that environmental issues would be solved in time by economic forces. I thought it was total horseshit.. Still I value the Economists opinion greatly, but they are fallible. Not propaganda but self indoctrinated. I recommend to anyone to use your head. Hope this helps.

 

[FBnil]

Compelling Speech

 

[FBnil]

It's not about choosing your news sources but questioning everything. If you trust any news source unflinchingly you are a muppet, sorry. Any news source can mix in populist bullshit, most obviously for me the BBC. But I still value it overall. I do love the Economist magazine but appreciate full well they are over zealous about free markets. I remember 20 some years ago they were against tree huggers and instead thought that environmental issues would be solved in time by economic forces. I thought it was total horseshit and was right. Still I value the Economists opinion greatly, but they are fallible. Not propaganda but self indoctrinated. I recommend to anyone to use your head. Hope this helps.

I think @fusion_power does have a point that at which point you stop/start trusting. If you trust nothing, then you are in the "I only know that I know nothing, and even of that I am uncertain" - Socratic camp, cautious; or "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" - The Assassin Order, not cautious at all (there's no truth, so mine's as good as the others and I make it up along the way). And at the other side of the spectrum is the gullible "everything is truth". No need to (re)think. - muppet camp.

I do like "Memory" in your quote. With that you can check for patterns in "truth", like: "If you have unguarded oil in your soil, you are more likely to get invaded". And indeed, Ukraine has lots of that (in the south).

>>Any news source can mix in populist bullshit, most obviously for me the BBC. But I still value it overall.
Ah, that means you have a heuristic filter that automatically detects truth and 'bullshit' for that outlet. Yes, then watching BBC news has worth to you.

And I thing @fusion_power does not have a filter at all for RT, so he's cautious about it (that ideas get implanted in his head because he has no such filter, for that news outlet).

references:

8 Profound Meanings to "I Know That I Know Nothing" - Hasty Reader

1. Your mind can't be trusted | 2. This world might not be the real one | 3. It's impossible to know the truth | 4. It's a paradox | 5. A sign of humility

hastyreader.com

 

[FBnil]

A bit more on (semi serious here on this):
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted" - The Assassin Order

 

[fusion_power]

This here is not a simple black-white war. There is no black+white here. It's all shades of gray (more than 50).

Usually, nothing is pure black+white in the world but in this case it's pretty clear imho. Or do you really want to defend Putin in any ways? I say Putin, not Russia, because it's basically his private war and everyone suffers from it. Basically all just because he has a problem with Democracy and don't want to have it in his neighborhood. maybe he fears it couls spread over russia sooner or later and will end his career. So, Putin may be the biggest egoist on this Planet right now.

>>Except in the USA maybe.
You mean those mean roasting shows?
Kidding aside, why is it an exception?

Watch FOX News and idiots like Tucker Carslon & Co. they can spread their bullshit unhindered, no other Opinions, no facts check, no nothing. 100% "Freedom of speech", great. I can't even imagine how such populists would stand against a real opposite opinion. I'm glad that we have mostly sane media here in Germany (except BILD maybe).

And I thing @fusion_power does not have a filter at all for RT, so he's cautious about it (that ideas get implanted in his head because he has no such filter, for that news outlet).

What "Filter"? I can watch it and I can filter every information and sort it from plausible to bullshit. This needs alot of different sources for one and the same news but this is how I consume media anyways, no worries. I don't rely on one source. I'm more worried about others without these "Filters".
But what kind of valuable Information do you think, RT can provide? Except Putin-Propaganda? We actually don't even need to discuss if RT is a pure Russian Propaganda channel, because they are. It just took to long to stop RT here in Europe.
I can stand this kind of news sources, but again: some people may not and may believe all that crap. That's the dangerous thing ere, because disinformation in times of war is a mighty tactic and the russian government are masters in this discipline.

 

[netcat]

I was going to say the news is just entertainment but now I watch news because I'm scared and am desperate for things to get better. I wish i could just switch off but I can't.