Uae Portrd By Squidqe

[Squidge]

We don't have the kernel source used in the GP2X, and GPH will not release it. So the only thing we can use is a similar kernel (DJW has found a one that is very similar), and then put back in all the changes that GPH did to it, but without knowing what those changes are...

 

[Digitalrat]

Did GPH even make big changes? Reading the "leaked" documents I thought they didn't do much more than using the source from magiceye.

And doesn't the GPL force them to give you the source if you ask for it?

 

[Oscaruzzo]

And doesn't the GPL force them to give you the source if you ask for it?

​

Yes (unless all the changes are contained in a loadable module).

 

[Squidge]

The kernel on the gp2x doesn't have any modules - all the modifications are directly in the kernel.

We have asked GPH for the kernel source many times, and quoted the GPL, but they just say "We can not give you the source code to the kernel".

So, yes, they are breaking the GPL agreement - but what can we do about it? The only option left is to take them to court, and I think that's a little OTT myself.

We'll just have to make our own kernel, get it running, and then make it open. People will flash upgrade when they realise there emulators don't work on the old GPH provided kernel

(and before anyone asks, you can reflash the kernel of a gp2x with just a serial lead - no kernel needs to be present, so gp2x's killed by bad flashes should never occur)

 

[DaveC]

the problem with that would be getting the blitter or audio to synchronize with the 68K processor being emulated on the other processor. I think the closest we'll be able to get is having all the emulation done on one processor, and the actual graphics and audio output (not emulation) being done on the other. Should still save quite a bit of time.

​

So does this mean that the second core is not much use for emulation? If that is true that means the GP2X won't be all that much faster than the GP32 for emulation. In that case forget NeoGeo, or *playable* with sound Amiga then right? For these things we will still have the PSP I guess, maybe Gizmondo.

That is kind of a bummer. Well at least we get more storage and more buttons.

 

[unlucky]

This is worrying stuff i mean i would get a psp or ds but i dont want sony killing everything everytime i want to play again. And the DS now has that rogue program bricking the units (same for the psp except alot more have been killed now.)

Squidge will the gp2x be capable of doing anything snazzy with its second processor?

 

[Jarska333]

What, me worry?

I tried to find that picture by googling... First page of hits were mostly George W. Bush mock-ups.

I wonder if it means something... :unsure:

 

[Squidge]

Trust DaveC to be all negative

Of course the second processor can be used for helping out emulation - but how much it can be used will be different for each project. Also, don't forget that we are still in very early days.

 

[DaveC]

Trust DaveC to be all negative

Of course the second processor can be used for helping out emulation - but how much it can be used will be different for each project. Also, don't forget that we are still in very early days.

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I was just going by your findings in your previous posts which didn't sound too promising (lack of MMU on second core, bus contention etc). I wasn't trying to be all negative but your findings have brought us back to earth a bit. Hoping for perfect Amiga, Neo or SNES may be a bit out of reach still it looks like from what you found.

It is not ALL negative though, like I said we still get more storage, more buttons, better video for those that care about that, linux, bigger community, every unit has backlit screen, TV-out. And if the second core helps AT ALL it will still be better than a GP32 so that is not too bad. It still is an improvement.

Here is the way I think it is with the GP2X, please correct if wrong:

Emus that *can* be PERFECT, that is full speed, full sound, at FS 0, raster effects:

Colecovision
GB
GBC
Speccy
Lynx
C64
Atari 800/5200
SMS/GG
NES
PC-Engine
Amstrad
Atari ST
Atari 2600

Emus that will be NEAR perfect , that is full speed, full sound and maybe FS1 or 2:

Megadrive
Pre-1990 MAME

Emus that are playable but have features missing such as transparency and or sound, may have high frame skip:

SNES (no transparency)
Neo Geo (no sound)
Amiga (no sound, high frameskip)

Systems that will be poorly emulated, high frameskip, many missing features such as sound, very slow, poor compatibility:

PSX
GBA

Systems that are totally impossible at anything considered playable:

Saturn
32X
Sega CD
3DO
Jaguar
N64
Anything above that in date

 

[Sonic-NKT]

i think your right davec in most points, but megadrive will be more than near perfect, the gp32 at 166 is for me near perfect (just depends on the asm core)
i also think that neogeo will be better, on the dreamcast and psp its almost fullspeed with sound (neogeoCD) so we will have that too.
and dont forget, we have a really fast 68k asm core.

about the others i cant say much, dont know much about the hardware, maybe gba could be even better, but only if someone looks again at gpadvance and uses the second cpu

 

[Alpha2]

I wonder can't the two processors be made to alternate in processing? Or would that cause it to move even slower?

 

[Eolair]

How much time and effort would it take to make a Amiga emulator that takes full advantage of the dual cores? Would you even be able to use UAE or would you need to write a new emulator all the way from the ground and up? I hope not because with the complexity of the Amiga that would be a huge undertaking...

Or what about porting other Amiga emulators like Fellow? Fellow is generally quite a bit faster than UAE.

Too bad the Xfellow project for linux seems to be temporarly halted. Not sure if the source code from that would be of any use. It currently uses SDL for graphics and input, OSS for sound and GTK+ for the GUI. Last I heard they were working on moving the sound over to SDL.

http://xfellow.sourceforge.net/abt.html

 

[Oscaruzzo]

The kernel on the gp2x doesn't have any modules - all the modifications are directly in the kernel.

We have asked GPH for the kernel source many times, and quoted the GPL, but they just say "We can not give you the source code to the kernel".

This is terrible news. I never expected that from a company with slogans like "Open mind, Open source" on their site...

So, yes, they are breaking the GPL agreement - but what can we do about it? The only option left is to take them to court, and I think that's a little OTT myself.

Of course you're right, that would be totally unreasonable. But maybe if more people will ask for the source code, they will understand how important it is to have a really open platform (and after all, a device driver is the ultimate reference for a piece of hardware...)

 

[Jarska333]

Systems that are totally impossible at anything considered playable:

Saturn
32X
Sega CD
3DO
Jaguar
N64

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How about GP32?

What kind of HW does 3DO have?

 

[Jegriva]

I will never understand why the koreans have chosen two 200Mhz and not 1 400Mhz...

 

[Alpha2]

...even after is was explained half a dozen times that it was cheaper and easier for the factory the use the 200s?

 

[declaration]

DaveC- that list is so pessimistic.

Just look how good SNES is on the GP32. Its not perfect by any means, but its great considering the limitations. The GP2X hasnt even been released yet, but we have UAE running at 10fps.
What did the GP32 have at a similar period? Not much.

The GP32 already has much of what you say- ie- near perfect Genesis, very slow GBA, slowish SNES etc.

I don't want expectations to be set too high, but its like you are on a constant rollercoaster, with what you think possible changing everytime Squidge says using the second core is difficult.
It will get easier over time as devs share methods and more people work on it. It will also depend on the project and how easily adaptable the original source code is to using two cores etc.

 

[Ravnos]

The kernel on the gp2x doesn't have any modules - all the modifications are directly in the kernel.

We have asked GPH for the kernel source many times, and quoted the GPL, but they just say "We can not give you the source code to the kernel".

This is terrible news. I never expected that from a company with slogans like "Open mind, Open source" on their site...

So, yes, they are breaking the GPL agreement - but what can we do about it? The only option left is to take them to court, and I think that's a little OTT myself.

Of course you're right, that would be totally unreasonable. But maybe if more people will ask for the source code, they will understand how important it is to have a really open platform (and after all, a device driver is the ultimate reference for a piece of hardware...)

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I don't think it's unreasonable at all, but a little excessive until other options run out. They're violating the license agreement that embodies the very spirit that they're hoping to foster with the GP2X community, not to mention the legal rights of the recipients of that software. I think it would be far too expensive to actually take action, but perhaps someone could contact the Free Software Foundation. They typically use legal action as a last resort and would be far more capable of success than a bunch of guys bitching on the internet.

Then again, under the GPL none of us have any rights to the source until we actually have the software so maybe we'll see it released when the GP2X is actually in our hands. We're jumping the gun a little bit here. They're still beta testing the firmware, aren't they?

 

[Ravnos]

....

 

[Esn]

I don't know if you realize this DaveC, but your list is pretty much a dead-on listing of how well emulators work on the GP32.

...I'd imagine that the GP2X would be a bit more powerfull... :huh:

Then again, under the GPL none of us have any rights to the source until we actually have the software so maybe we'll see it released when the GP2X is actually in our hands. We're jumping the gun a little bit here. They're still beta testing the firmware, aren't they?

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Good point! Never assume that you have the upper hand until you read the fine print...