Transfers... Tranzfers..

[hedwards]

Someone earlier in the thread stated that they can't do that because OpenPandora ltd falls under EU regulations and under EU regulations you need to be a financial institution to be able to retain credit card information. (and they added that yes, Amazon qualifies as that which is why they can do it)

And that's the point that you've been missing in all of this. For those of us that live in the US, or anywhere outside of the EU, we don't know or understand how those regulations may or may not apply to us. And for those of us in the US in particularly, we don't have much in the way of protection for non-CC purchases. If we use Checks or worse bank Transfers it's entirely possible that we could be out far more than what we authorized.

Worse still is that if we use a third party for transfers we don't necessarily have any protection if other unauthorized charges are made. This purchase, is far less than what my pay check is, and I'm willing to risk the purchase a bit, but definitely not a half of a months salary.

We don't have the right to get our original check back, amounts taken from most bank accounts are not monitored the way that CC charges are. And ultimately there's very little that can be done to make a bank fix an error it made if the amount wasn't authorized.

If it's as common to use wire transfers in the EU and elsewhere as people say, then it's entirely likely that the protections involved are much better than what we have.

If Craig, or more realistically the bank, were to screw up, we'd be largely up a creek. There's basically no way of suing in the US that would guarantee that they'd show up or make collection possible, and flying to the UK over a sum of money this small is ridiculous at best.

That being said, as frustrated as I am having read through this thread, I do trust Craig, and ultimately, I may be stuck sending a check if CCs are ultimately not available for use.

EDIT: And this thread probably ought to be locked for people to cool down.

 

[Hotcooler]

Just out of curiosity, if you don't like the content of this thread, why do you keep reading it?

Probably because of that:

 

[Eniko]

<snip>
And that's the point that you've been missing in all of this.
<snip>
Excuse me, but I'm not missing any point. The poster in question posited "why don't they just do this to solve the problem?" and I explained why; because they are not allowed to do so, and thus cannot.

This thread is a depressing trainwreck, though. Someone of authority should've said something long ago, or the entire thing should've just been nuked, and I'm gonna ignore it from now.

 

[stustaff]

<snip>
And that's the point that you've been missing in all of this.
<snip>
Excuse me, but I'm not missing any point. The poster in question posited "why don't they just do this to solve the problem?" and I explained why; because they are not allowed to do so, and thus cannot.

This thread is a depressing trainwreck, though. Someone of authority should've said something long ago, or the entire thing should've just been nuked, and I'm gonna ignore it from now.

+1

I will leave this too but add finally the reason it has this may posts is because people care! people want a pandora.

 

[hedwards]

<snip>
And that's the point that you've been missing in all of this.
<snip>
Excuse me, but I'm not missing any point. The poster in question posited "why don't they just do this to solve the problem?" and I explained why; because they are not allowed to do so, and thus cannot.

This thread is a depressing trainwreck, though. Someone of authority should've said something long ago, or the entire thing should've just been nuked, and I'm gonna ignore it from now.

Umm, no you pretty clearly missed my point. You pretty blatantly attack people in this thread for not being willing to trust wires and for reasons I outlined, people in this geographic region aren't willing to trust wires. Seems to me that at some points, you missed the point by quite a large margin.

 

[Matt2k]

yeah, they should lock this thread and then put up a few vids of many of the emus and other progs that are currently under development just to turn those frowns into smiles.

 

[Daryoon]

Just out of curiosity, if you don't like the content of this thread, why do you keep reading it?

Probably because of that:

And yet the irony of it is lost on you!

Anywho, the real issue now is that OP posted a query (odd as it was, since the suggestion re: CD was pretty bad) but has yet to reappear. And that is kind of the heart of it. Lack of communication and accountability. If Craigix would just come back and help finish the thread he started, there may be answers that can be provided that would resolve this entire thread.

The real problem is not the fanbois/apologists. It's not the people rightfully demanding accountability. It's the lack of responsiveness that is problematic.

Hopefully, a few months from now we will all have Pandoras and have happily moved on. But, until that day comes, I think people are entitled to answers (especially those that followed instructions, paid and, as of this date, are out money). Quite honestly, the people who are OUT money are the ones that should be addressed first ... not the ones that used the newly chosen method of payment.

 

[darkblu]

Quite honestly, the people who are OUT money are the ones that should be addressed first ... not the ones that used the newly chosen method of payment.

an interesting point you make there. one implying that the people who've gone for a bank transfer are _not_ out money.

FYI, many of the people who've gone with the 'newly chosen method of payment' have done so after a credit card refund, thus are 'out money' just as much as everybody else who's been refunded. they just don't happen to be bitching and moaning about being deprived of some lunatic financial security, cheated through forex, or generally mistreated. maybe because said people are actually conscious of the reality, and not behaving like a wal-mart customer throwing a tantrum at the customer care desk, like a few of the posters in this thread.

apropos, you do realize that the unlucky amex users, championed by the same glorious credit system financial security, will be eventually getting their pandoras just because the pandora team are actually decent chaps, don't you?

 

[salasq]

Amazon is also American. As has been stated before, CC's are so normal here that different rules apply.

Any foreign company - even American ones - operating in EU have to conform with EU rules. OP is an EU company and can't randomly pick to follow a different ruleset.

So with the money they have right now, they can produce 4000 pandoras? They don't NEED any more money to be able to produce them? Is this correct? Where has this been stated by the devs? If they don't NEED the money then why are they trying to sort out half arsed solutions such as a 'cd' or gift voucher! Nonsense!

The paid pre-orders they have have put them over the threshold required for starting production. Not 4000, though, but those that have been paid for. The 'half arsed solutions' are purely to appease the non-transfer crowd who fear being relegated to 2nd batch.

Not that 'batch' has much importance now, as they apparently are going with rolling, small batch production instead - a wholly sensible decision.

just tell me something, why can't they just open another bank account, in other bank?

They did.

 

[DCillusion]

Amazon is also American. As has been stated before, CC's are so normal here that different rules apply.

Any foreign company - even American ones - operating in EU have to conform with EU rules. OP is an EU company and can't randomly pick to follow a different ruleset.


Amazon doesn't operate in the EU. People who live in the EU pay a company in Oregon, USA, & they ship the product to them. True enough Open Pandora doesn't operate out of the US; so they do follow a different rules-set.

You seem to be trying to make a point, as many others, that Open Pandora is doing everything they can. For as many "whiners" there also seem to be a lot of "silencers" here. You realize that this thread was started to find a solution. Defending the problem is no better than complaining about it. If you really want to help the Dev's, start suggesting, & organizing, solutions.

 

[gaterooze]

Amazon doesn't operate in the EU. People who live in the EU pay a company in Oregon, USA, & they ship the product to them.

(off-topic-ish) I suppose you mean Amazon US. These days, there is also Amazon UK, Amazon De, Amazon Fr, etc, who all operate domestically in the EU.

 

[DCillusion]

off-topic,

I'll have to retract my first statement then. I didn't know they were using domestic offices now.

ThanX

 

[todd]

Lotta heat... not much fire.

So an idea. I heard similar things mentioned and dismissed once before. But the situation's different, now.

Problem: lots of Americans (and others without cheap & easy bank transfers) want to pay for the Pandora. Credit cards just aren't going to work right now.

I believe I recall Craig mentioning that their bank would charge them to receive (and convert) international checks.

If not, I would love to pop one in the mail. Cheap and easy. Americans without a checking account could just send a postal money order (basically the same as a check).

However, if they would charge a fee, then it would be very nice to find a US (or Canadian!) destination to which we could mail checks (or send less expensive (domestic) electronic fund transfers). What would it take for somebody on the OP team or recruited by them to open a US-based checking account and accept checks at a US address (e.g., a Personal Mail Box at a shipping store)? It would require a number of hours of administration (book-keeping, dealing with bounced checks, etc.) so they might even want to reimburse this agent a little for his/her trouble.

This US-based account could then be used to pay US-based suppliers directly or to send one massive EFT back to England.

It would be tiresome and messy, but it might save $40 * ???? in stateside transfer fees. In aggregate, that's a lotta' dough!

It sounds like the OP crew was sending out invitations to pay one-by-one anyhow. They can send them out with all the options laid out:

• Pay __ pounds by EFT to this UK bank...
• Pay $__USD by personal check or money order to this US address before this date.
• _________?

The chief obstacle I see is the need for a trusted party in the US. The easy answer for that is to let Craig pick somebody he knows and trusts personally to do the deed. It should require 1-2 hours/day from the agent for a few weeks, and then be done! Close the account.

It's an idea. What have I missed?

--Todd

 

[lucidchaos]

This is a public service announcement for anyone like me who has not checked the board for a day or two.

Going back and reading what you missed of this thread is a complete waste of your time.
There is a unanimous rejection of the "$330 CD + FREE PANDORA" idea. There are those bitching, those reassuring, wash rinse repeat. There is no new information and it baffles me how it grew into a 27 page monstrosity.

No discredit to those looking to solve problems and in active discussion. However, lurkers need not waste their time.

Edit: Here's a thread aimed at solving the problem

 

[White Demon]

Look on the main site's news post, and where I highlighted:

QUOTE
However, we also got some good news for you AMEX guys: We know you didn't get your money back yet (we're having another meeting with the bank in the near future), however, we assure you that EVERYBODY WHO ORDERED AND PAID will get a Pandora, even if you didn't get the chance to reorder yet!

They can't blatantly lie about that now, can they? They have the finance to produce pandora's for everyone who ordered.

Why are people still talking about this?
Because of this:

How many people need to preorder? None. We don't need money from anybody else to make Pandoras for those who have already paid. I'm trying to convince Craig to call off additional preorders entirely and just make units for the existing orders. Obviously no CC merchant system is willing to sell preorders, and anybody who is willing to pay via bank transfer has already done so. We'd like to be able to provide a reorder option for everybody who ordered originally, but obviously that just isn't possible.

Those who are not comfortable with a bank transfer are welcome to wait until we have Pandoras in stock and can accept normal CC orders.

and this:

So anybody wanting order by CC should .. wait for the 2nd batch... ?
At this point, I don't see any reasonable alternative.
Seem so sure you're gonna get your pre-ordered P you haven't been given the chance to pay again for now?

At some point they may need money in the future, but right now they don't need it, not for the first batch at least.

Well if you are so sure that they don't need the money yet, then I did post a solution back on page 22. Here it is again, quoted for your convenience:

Why not re-open CC orders after all units are made for those who previously pre-ordered but have not been able to pay, with a limit of, say 2-3 weeks to pay for it. When they pay they are sent their originally promised unit, if they don't pay in those 2-3 weeks, once that time limit is up, the remaining unclaimed P's can be regarded as 'in stock' items to be sold to whoever orders it.

 

[Daryoon]

Whitedemon, the problem seems to be that they cannot deliver units they did not receive (or had to return) preorder cash for (contrary to their prior reps).

 

[White Demon]

@Daryoon: which is what my suggestion, as I quoted above, is for.

But are you sure that's what it is? The things I quoted from Chip appear to say exactly the opposite.

 

[TaG]

Look on the main site's news post, and where I highlighted:

QUOTE
However, we also got some good news for you AMEX guys: We know you didn't get your money back yet (we're having another meeting with the bank in the near future), however, we assure you that EVERYBODY WHO ORDERED AND PAID will get a Pandora, even if you didn't get the chance to reorder yet!

They can't blatantly lie about that now, can they? They have the finance to produce pandora's for everyone who ordered.

Why are people still talking about this?
Because of this:

How many people need to preorder? None. We don't need money from anybody else to make Pandoras for those who have already paid. I'm trying to convince Craig to call off additional preorders entirely and just make units for the existing orders. Obviously no CC merchant system is willing to sell preorders, and anybody who is willing to pay via bank transfer has already done so. We'd like to be able to provide a reorder option for everybody who ordered originally, but obviously that just isn't possible.

Those who are not comfortable with a bank transfer are welcome to wait until we have Pandoras in stock and can accept normal CC orders.

and this:

So anybody wanting order by CC should .. wait for the 2nd batch... ?
At this point, I don't see any reasonable alternative.
Seem so sure you're gonna get your pre-ordered P you haven't been given the chance to pay again for now?

At some point they may need money in the future, but right now they don't need it, not for the first batch at least.

Well if you are so sure that they don't need the money yet, then I did post a solution back on page 22. Here it is again, quoted for your convenience:

Why not re-open CC orders after all units are made for those who previously pre-ordered but have not been able to pay, with a limit of, say 2-3 weeks to pay for it. When they pay they are sent their originally promised unit, if they don't pay in those 2-3 weeks, once that time limit is up, the remaining unclaimed P's can be regarded as 'in stock' items to be sold to whoever orders it.

I totally agree. Those that choose not to do a bank transfer, for whatever reason, should still be able to get in, even if at the tail end, of the pre-orders and not as part of 'batch 2'. Then by waiting for your preferred method of payment you may have to wait a little longer than those prepare to do a transfer.

 

[MaxSteiner]

So, on November 25th the following conversation takes place between some forum members and chip, about the possible reason for all these refunds:

Someone says:
I don't think its legal to take credit card orders for a product that doesn't exist yet. That may be the real problem here: someone at the bank got wind of the fact that orders were being taken for a non-existing product. Sure, *we* trust Craig&Co. to get the product out there, but banks are very, very sketchy when it comes to pre-orders and so on ..

I say:
I think there might be something to that line of thought!

Chip says:
There is exactly zero truth in these suppositions. There is no law in any country that I am aware of (Certainly not in the US or UK) preventing a company from selling a product on a pre-order basis, provided that it is clearly a pre-order transaction. I am aware of the banks actual decisions and have a pretty good idea of the reasoning behind them, and it has nothing to do with Pandoras existing or not. I am not at liberty to discuss the details, but rest assured that Openpandora did nothing wrong.


I suggest I talk to my friend who does factoring at Barcleys:
I'll ask him, and start a bankers POV thread with the inside info, just because we all want too see the Pandora succeed doesn't mean we have to take everything the devs tell us at face value...

Chip says:
If you do, it will be deleted. Craig and I will be more than happy to lay out all the gory details after this whole situation has been resolved. Until it is resolved, supposition and finger-pointing can only make things worse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

End result, we were all told we were being paranoid, that the Pandora crew had done nothing wrong etc etc.
And now, it turns out thats exactly what happened. It just wasn't illegal
If they had just accepted this at the begining, stopped painting the bank out as children eating ogres, and just accepted that you cannot recieve full payment via paypall, or a CC (or debit card) for an item which doesn't exist, and told us all this 2 months ago, then this would all be proceeding much smoother!

Craig has said several times that CC orders WILL NOT LOSE THEIR PLACE IN THE LINE, AND THAT PRODUCTION DOESN'T DEPEND ON THE PREORDER MONEY.
So why not just open CC ordering 30 days from when the product ships?
If it turns out you do neeed the money to complete production, just say!
If the company is in dire straits, just say!
I'll understandd, we all.
Its just when Im told theres no problem at all, when its increasingly obvious that there is it gets annoying.

I'm sorry if my lack of faith disturbs you, BUT I will not send a money transfer for an item I still havent seen a completed picture of, to recieve a CD to get round the fact that there is nothing to deliver!

And for all the people saying if Im not willing to blindly send my money to a company which may or may not have an item I want, go screw yourself in the ear hole.
I paid.
They refunded.
They can have my money back when they have a system for accepting CC orders as agreed at the start (i'll even pay the CC fees, although Im pretty sure thats a pretty grey action too).

I'm not angry at the Pandora crew, this is business, and its not very good business to admit to cock ups, especially when you're still working hard to meet a sliding deadline, been in that sittuation myself.
I am angry at the rabid, foaming at the mouth blind fan boys, who have been denying for the past 4 months that theres any chance that anything could ever ggo wrong, stiffling any kind of discusion on what might happen at this stage because their fragile world view cannot handle the chance that they were wrong about something!

 

[tds48]

Wow I am now 100% confused, no make that 1000%

Genuinely, there have been two many quotes and suppositions, to muddy the water completely.

I now have no idea if
1) February is still the target date
2) If i need to pay by bank order to ensure I keep my pre-order
3) Why all this commotion, given everything was paid for and on track, and there was no reliance on pre-order money.

Still know Craig is a man of his word .. just thoroughly confused by all the quotes and rumours.

After the refund I chose to wait to re-order by CC, however if this now jeopardizes my order I would rather pay by bank order now!

A nice blog update dispelling all inaccuracies and confirming truths would be welcomed!



:blink: andora1: :blink:

(And before anyone points it out - I nearly had to cancel my pre-order last year, luckily things changed!)