This Looks Interesting

[DaveC]

even if the main XGP model does use 16:9, it would not be the end of the world. The internal hardware is also dramatically different from the PSP.

Well in that case you will either get a tiny image or horrible stretching. That sucks.

 

[Epicenter]

We've heard. :rolleyes: If the XGP does use 16:9, the people who DEMAND 4:3 might be happier with the Mini. I'd get a full XGP since I can't stand screens that small, and I don't mind some stretching THAT much. Emulation is always inaccurate, especially on lower-end portable devices. Hell, I'm not fully satisfied with emulation on high-end PCs. I'm hoping they opt for 4:3 across the board, though same as you.

 

[MWeston]

Since this topic has pretty much run it's course:

Hey Epicenter, did you notice that the S3C2460 only supports DDR RAM at 16 bits! That's a real kick in the teeth.

 

[DaveC]

I don't mind some stretching THAT much. Emulation is always inaccurate, especially on lower-end portable devices. Hell, I'm not fully satisfied with emulation on high-end PCs. I'm hoping they opt for 4:3 across the board, though same as you.

Yeah that makes sense. Since emulation is not that accurate it is not that bad to make it look like shit on top of it by stretching and filtering the crap out of it No thanks.

 

[iignotus]

Dave, I get a strange feeling that you don't like it if the image output is stretched in an emulator. Why haven't you ever spoken up about it in the past?

 

[Epicenter]

Since this topic has pretty much run it's course:

Hey Epicenter, did you notice that the S3C2460 only supports DDR RAM at 16 bits! That's a real kick in the teeth.

I wouldn't be too surprised if it were the same with the VRender-3D and MMSP2 then, since Samsung's SoCs follow ARM's platform reference design to the letter in most places, from what I have seen. At any rate, I doubt it has that big an impact since the CPU and RAM can't communicate on every cycle anyway-- there's always some delay involved-- that's why we have timing settings even on modern systems.

There's also, of course, the inherent benefit that DDR operates on the rise AND fall of each clock tick, hence its name. It's also apparently lower power than SDRAM.

 

[Epicenter]

I don't mind some stretching THAT much. Emulation is always inaccurate, especially on lower-end portable devices. Hell, I'm not fully satisfied with emulation on high-end PCs. I'm hoping they opt for 4:3 across the board, though same as you.

Yeah that makes sense. Since emulation is not that accurate it is not that bad to make it look like shit on top of it by stretching and filtering the crap out of it No thanks.

It doesn't have to look that bad, either. For example, you can scale the image out to fill nearly the entire display on most games that are ~320x240, like MegaDrive/Genesis, NeoGeo, most arcade games, etc. and most other resolutions work well via the same method, the aspect ratio maintained, and the result image will still be about the same size, maybe slightly larger, than the one the GP2X displays. Filtering doesn't need to make up for a destroyed image, and you can barely tell there is any resampling done at all on an analog LCD of that size.

Example: A MegaDrive/Genesis 320x224, 4:3 frame scaled to fit most of the proposed 480x272 16:9 display. Note all there is, is some non-major horizontal letterboxing.

More examples: http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=32307

 

[DaveC]

Filtering doesn't need to make up for a destroyed image, and you can barely tell there is any resampling done at all on an analog LCD of that size.

I can tell, it looks fuzzy. Filtering IS making up for the destroyed image, that is the point of doing it Since you don't get any real size advantage over the GP2X then what is the point?

I have a choice of stretched and fuzzy, or 1:1 and sharp and get the same image size. I will take the 1:1 and sharp. You can have the fuzzy XGP blurr box, knock your self out.

 

[OMars]

Filtering doesn't need to make up for a destroyed image, and you can barely tell there is any resampling done at all on an analog LCD of that size.

I can tell, it looks fuzzy. Filtering IS making up for the destroyed image, that is the point of doing it Since you don't get any real size advantage over the GP2X then what is the point?

I have a choice of stretched and fuzzy, or 1:1 and sharp and get the same image size. I will take the 1:1 and sharp. You can have the fuzzy XGP blurr box, knock your self out.

You should only criticize it if you plan to buy it, not if you're afraid that the gp2x will lose it's devs...besides you never know when a new devs will show up on the scene.

 

[jmetal88]

Who's making this device you keep mentioning? You said they were going to have some kind of announcement, but that must've been over 2 months ago...

Okay, okay. I've asked about it, and I've been given the go-ahead to release the website link. The site is not finished yet, but they've got some interesting stuff (including a really tiny Linux desktop machine). All devices thus far are set to launch in 2007 (and the handheld, I'm being told, is just a preliminary to a later more next-gen handheld that is still in development).

Here it is:

Celestia

 

[Epicenter]

I can tell, it looks fuzzy. Filtering IS making up for the destroyed image, that is the point of doing it Since you don't get any real size advantage over the GP2X then what is the point?

I guess a CPU that's over 33% faster stock and more overclockable, an FPU that's as powerful as the main CPU, a beefy DSP, a powerful and versatile 2D/3D GPU, hardware JPEG decoding/encoding support, Realtime clock support, MobileDDR memory, working SD-card DMA and supreme hardware documentation are worthless if your emulators are slightly fuzzy. Let's pack up and go home, no one's ever going to buy an XGP now.


...
:lol:

 

[DaveC]

I can tell, it looks fuzzy. Filtering IS making up for the destroyed image, that is the point of doing it Since you don't get any real size advantage over the GP2X then what is the point?

I guess a CPU that's over 33% faster stock and more overclockable, an FPU that's as powerful as the main CPU, a beefy DSP, a powerful and versatile 2D/3D GPU, hardware JPEG decoding/encoding support, Realtime clock support, MobileDDR memory, working SD-card DMA and supreme hardware documentation are worthless if your emulators are slightly fuzzy. Let's pack up and go home, no one's ever going to buy an XGP now.


...
:lol:

Well yeah if it looks like shit in the end who cares how powerful the CPU is.

Why do we have to buy an XGP? I know you have become obsessed with it lately for some reason.

 

[Epicenter]

I'm a developer, it's my job to be excited about hardware my software will run better on ... No one HAS to buy anything. You're confusing 'everyone' with yourself, though. Most people don't think of it as catastrophically as you do, and it's not all about emulators, either. If you gave it any sort of rational thought, or listened fully, you'd know lots of consoles like the NES and SNES and PC-Engine scale their output via analog means to meet the 4:3 aspect ratio of TVs. They are not natively 4:3 anyway. If you think anything that looks more like how the real console ran on a TV than it looks in a window in an emulator, or on a GP2X LCD screen in an emulator is the best possible scenario, I think you'd be an oppressed minority.

Okay, okay. I've asked about it, and I've been given the go-ahead to release the website link. The site is not finished yet, but they've got some interesting stuff (including a really tiny Linux desktop machine). All devices thus far are set to launch in 2007 (and the handheld, I'm being told, is just a preliminary to a later more next-gen handheld that is still in development)

Why does their handheld machine:
http://www.celestia.nl/Project_Aero.html

.. look to be exactly the same device as this generic no-name Chinese Mp4 player?
http://www.chinavasion.com/product_info.ph...xel-sdmmc-card/

Given that device's $73 price point, I have a hard time believing it had 3D acceleration capable of producing the racing-game screenshot shown on that page, either. That looks higher than the PSP's 3D capabilities, and a PSP is sold at closer to $200 and at a LOSS. No real specs at all (CPU, RAM, 2D/3D capabilities..) just some supported playback formats, basic features and capacities, this is pretty sketchy and doesn't really add up...

 

[___]

*snip*
Given that device's $73 price point, I have a hard time believing it had 3D acceleration capable of producing the racing-game screenshot shown on that page, either. That looks higher than the PSP's 3D capabilities, and a PSP is sold at closer to $200 and at a LOSS. No real specs at all (CPU, RAM, 2D/3D capabilities..) just some supported playback formats, basic features and capacities, this is pretty sketchy and doesn't really add up...

That`s what I thought, too. Vaporware if you ask me... this whole thing seems like crap and that "screenshot" has never even been on that device. I also don`t find the page to be professionally made, it`s all rather shady.

 

[jmetal88]

*snip*
Given that device's $73 price point, I have a hard time believing it had 3D acceleration capable of producing the racing-game screenshot shown on that page, either. That looks higher than the PSP's 3D capabilities, and a PSP is sold at closer to $200 and at a LOSS. No real specs at all (CPU, RAM, 2D/3D capabilities..) just some supported playback formats, basic features and capacities, this is pretty sketchy and doesn't really add up...

That`s what I thought, too. Vaporware if you ask me... this whole thing seems like crap and that "screenshot" has never even been on that device. I also don`t find the page to be professionally made, it`s all rather shady.

I don't think that's supposed to be a screenshot from that handheld. I think it's supposed to be their other one.

EDIT: And besides, they are changing the specs before release. They're talking about adding in shoulder buttons and whatnot.

And actually, they came up with that design before the thing on Chinavasion appeared. I know, because I saw it when the first pictures were published, back in August (notice how Chinavasion identifies it as a new product, when according to Celestia it's not even supposed to be out yet).

EDIT 2: Knowing the source this information comes from, I have no reason to believe any of it is false. I guess I won't be able to convince any of you until they actually start producing stuff though, I guess.

 

[KoH]

I guess I won't be able to convince any of you until they actually start producing stuff though, I guess.

 

[DaveC]

If you gave it any sort of rational thought, or listened fully, you'd know lots of consoles like the NES and SNES and PC-Engine scale their output via analog means to meet the 4:3 aspect ratio of TVs. They are not natively 4:3 anyway.

"Scaling via analog means" Which is basically just playing with the timing is COMPLETELY different that fractional scaling on an LCD. It also looks different. When done on an old TV the pixels are still all the same size relative to each other. When you do fractional scaling on an LCD some pixels are 1:1 and some are 2:1 like every 10th line (changes depending on resolution) in both directions in most cases. When you look at that it looks horrid. So then to cover up the awful looking pixel distortion you blurr the hell out of it. I f you actually like that then you can have it.

 

[Jarska333]

It isn't about liking, it's about tolerating, considering the game to be good enough to stomach a bit blurrynes. Sure, 1:1 screen is nice, but we aren't all "goldeneyes".

 

[Epicenter]

I f you actually like that then you can have it.

This would be a 'live and let live' attitude. However, despite this opinion of yours, you feel the need to yell about it whenever the topic comes to the XGP, PSP or any potential future system similar in any way to the GP2X. If you're OK with the fact that it doesn't bother most people as much as it bothers you, then you should stop ranting about it. You just make yourself look bad.

 

[winapa]

I f you actually like that then you can have it.

This would be a 'live and let live' attitude. However, despite this opinion of yours, you feel the need to yell about it whenever the topic comes to the XGP, PSP or any potential future system similar in any way to the GP2X. If you're OK with the fact that it doesn't bother most people as much as it bothers you, then you should stop ranting about it. You just make yourself look bad.

EVERYONE MUST BE FAITHFUL TO THE GP2X....BUY BUY BUY GP2X....@twitch twitch@. If you buy something else i'll find you and then...well...@twitch twitch@.

Every time the bloody XGP gets mentioned people go insane. It doesn't even exist at the moment, and when it does....So what? Are you happy with your GP2x? Yes? Fine! No? Get something else!

Paranoia, the opium of the masses.

Epicenter....Now i've stuck up for you against the playground bullies, when are you going to let us see this damn game of yours?