This is annoying

[Annoyed person]

Could you maybe keep random people from starting a topic here? Starting a topic here causes an email to be sent to every one who subscribed to that forum (which used to only contain official news), probably that's quite a lot of people and at least it annoys the hell out of *me*. (and because I'm in a bad mood I'm sharing that feeling with every one of you, yes)
And no, deleting a thread doesn't help, it just means that everyone who got an email and clicks on the link contained within gets a kind of 404.

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, IPB has an anti-spam service which we're using.
Seems like it doesn't work as good as it did with IPB3...

And it seems the update messed up the forum permissions, no one except me should be allowed to post here.
I'll fix that, and I still plan to switch to XenForo.

 

[Jan-Nik]

and I still plan to switch to XenForo.

Sorry for offtopic: Why not something open source like phpBB?

 

[WizardStan]

Paid for support: if something is broken he can contact the authors and get it fixed fairly quickly, with an open source solution you file a bug report and eventually, maybe, sometime in the future, someone will look into it.  It could get fixed quickly, or it may linger for a few weeks, you can't really tell.  With a paid forum it at least gets triaged almost immediately.

 

[rygD]

Paid for support: if something is broken he can contact the authors and get it fixed fairly quickly, with an open source solution you file a bug report and eventually, maybe, sometime in the future, someone will look into it.  It could get fixed quickly, or it may linger for a few weeks, you can't really tell.  With a paid forum it at least gets triaged almost immediately.

Do many other software companies take this approach to bugs in their products?  It seems ED is switching because the company behind the software currently in use won't fix our problems (some of which are features).  Other big name companies seem slow to respond to some well known issues with their products.  A big part of why I like free and open source software is that issues can be fixed either by the person that finds them, the people maintaining the software, or someone who is willing to fix it for the person that found it if the finder doesn't have the skills (with or without a fee).  Sometimes "official" fixes take a while, however sometimes they seem almost immediate, however the biggest benefit seems to be who can work on it, but it really depends on what it is and what it is being used for, with forum software possibly being complex.  I understand why it is possibly a better option for ED for the software used here not to be of the libre or open source variety, however it might not be a terrible idea to consider those options if someone is willing to help him out, especially if there are problems after the switch.

 

[WizardStan]

Whenever ED has encountered a bug, they've been pretty quick to fix it.
ED is switch because "it's not a bug, it's a feature".  The things that are "broken" with IPB right now aren't actually broken: they were designed to work this way.  He was told this almost instantly.
Like I said, this is the benefit of paid software vs open source: with paid software it's reasonable to expect that someone will look at your problem fairly quickly; with open source there is no such expectation, it could happen soon and a fix right on its tail or it could be months before anyone even gets around to verifying the problem.
And don't hand me that "anyone can fix it" garbage. I don't have time to be fixing every bug I come across: that would require learning so many different code bases it's ridiculous.  There are dedicated individuals perfectly capable of fixing the problem much faster than someone outside the project can.  In the perfect world, if someone were to find a bug they would also be able to fix it (technically in the perfect world bugs wouldn't exist) but the reality is that people find bugs that don't have the time, patience, desire, or ability to fix those bugs and must rely on the developer group.  If you've ever hit a bug in Chromium or Firefox like I have you'd understand.  I've got bug reports years old that haven't even been verified yet.
In paid for software, the fix may not come any faster than the open source solution, but at least someone comes along quickly to verify the problem.

 

[rygD]

I had a long reply to this, but I don't need all that.  You can get paid support of open source and libre software (I already said that).  If sticking with proprietary forum software for the sole reason of support and support leaves a lot to be desired from these companies, it is time to try something else.  

Some people would like to see ED using forum software that fits with some of the other things the Pandora and Pyra seem to be about, so it helps to show that "open source" isn't just being used as a selling point and to cut costs of the devices.

 

[Neelix]

I had a long reply to this, but I don't need all that.  You can get paid support of open source and libre software (I already said that).  If sticking with proprietary forum software for the sole reason of support and support leaves a lot to be desired from these companies, it is time to try something else.  

Sure... if you can find someone offering paid support for a product that meets your requirements... (EDIT: and at a reasonable rate)


Also one company no longer being able to meet ones requirement is hardly a condemnation of other companies that offer similar products and services using a similar business model.  The design philosophy of one company went in an undesirable direction,  that isn't the same as a failure of proprietary software in general.  It isn't even something unique to proprietary software,  the Gnome Foundation, Mozilla and Canonical have all made design decisions which have steered me away from the later versions of their products. 

-Neelix

 

 

[EvilDragon]

I've been running phpBB for years on the german boards, and honestly, it's a mess.
Including extensions still is lot of hacking (instead of hooks that can simply be plugged in), Spam sometimes was horrible (it's okay right now, but the german boards are small, with a huge board like this, it would be worse).
Also, the latest upgrade doesn't even work. I tried, but it fails when trying to convert the database to UTF-8.

With both IPB4 and XenForo, I can also easily build full HTML pages and include them anywhere using blocks and the menu system, which means that I can build the full website including product specifications and even the Wiki around the boards, using the login for details from the boards.

These are all things that do not easily work with any open source solution I've seen yet.

 

[WizardStan]

You can get paid support of open source and libre software (I already said that). 

Yes you can, and that doesn't change any of what I said.  Note that I switched to calling it "paid software", not "proprietary": I did that to include open software with paid for support.  Granted I still called the other choice "open source" but that's for lack of terminology: I mean "open source software where development is done on an entirely volunteer basis".  I don't know a shortcut for that.  Perhaps "volunteer software"? Yeah, that's good.  Sorry for the confusion.
If there's good libre forum software with good paid support then suggest it.  You asked why not phpBB and I told you: support is on a volunteer basis, and I gave reasons why paid support is better.  He could hire a contractor I suppose but that's much more costly than direct paid-for support.

 If sticking with proprietary forum software for the sole reason of support and support leaves a lot to be desired from these companies, it is time to try something else. 

Support doesn't leave anything to be desired.  From what EvilDragon has said IPB's support is top notch.  The forum is operating as intended, that's the problem: he doesn't like the forum itself anymore.

And the things the he just said...

 

[b_o_b]

http://www.webkeon.com/phpbb-forum-customization.html

Maybe there is no support from phpbb.com, but you can hire companies to do some phpbb work for you. Not sure about the costs or quality of the paid support, but saying there is nothing just seems incorrect.

 

[EvilDragon]

The support for XenForo and IPB4 is free once you bought it (and XenForo costs 140 USD once and then 40 USD a year).
With hiring someone for support, you usually pay a lot more, as they are taking hourly rates.

 

[rygD]

I had a long reply to this, but I don't need all that.  You can get paid support of open source and libre software (I already said that).  If sticking with proprietary forum software for the sole reason of support and support leaves a lot to be desired from these companies, it is time to try something else.  

Sure... if you can find someone offering paid support for a product that meets your requirements... (EDIT: and at a reasonable rate)

Also one company no longer being able to meet ones requirement is hardly a condemnation of other companies that offer similar products and services using a similar business model.  The design philosophy of one company went in an undesirable direction,  that isn't the same as a failure of proprietary software in general.  It isn't even something unique to proprietary software,  the Gnome Foundation, Mozilla and Canonical have all made design decisions which have steered me away from the later versions of their products. 

-Neelix

Right, and if XenForo also doesn't work out for ED (I already see some signs of a problem just trying to get switched over, but that is not their fault) maybe he should consider all options.  That is all I am saying.  This is what I was getting at in post 5.  I totally agree with you on proprietary vs. FLOSS, and there are things I prefer proprietary stuff for, however just because something is proprietary and comes with support doesn't mean it is the best option. (On a side note, I am not at my computer right now, I messed up a quote, and now I can't get rid of italics.  Sorry about that.)

 

With both IPB4 and XenForo, I can also easily build full HTML pages and include them anywhere using blocks and the menu system, which means that I can build the full website including product specifications and even the Wiki around the boards, using the login for details from the boards.

These are all things that do not easily work with any open source solution I've seen yet.

If you are waiting to test out the new version of IPB, please don't stay with it just because of all that.  If it fixes most of our complaints keep it, but there are some things that are really bothersome.

If you really want an all in one solution, go for it.  The site and all the behind the scenes stuff is important.  So is users being able to post and work on the wiki.  Currently, as we all know, there are a lot of headaches related to being able to use the boards.  Hopefully XenForo or some currently unexplored option will work out well enough for everyone.


 

You can get paid support of open source and libre software (I already said that). 

Yes you can, and that doesn't change any of what I said.  Note that I switched to calling it "paid software", not "proprietary": I did that to include open software with paid for support.  Granted I still called the other choice "open source" but that's for lack of terminology: I mean "open source software where development is done on an entirely volunteer basis".  I don't know a shortcut for that.  Perhaps "volunteer software"? Yeah, that's good.  Sorry for the confusion.
If there's good libre forum software with good paid support then suggest it.  You asked why not phpBB and I told you: support is on a volunteer basis, and I gave reasons why paid support is better.  He could hire a contractor I suppose but that's much more costly than direct paid-for support.

 If sticking with proprietary forum software for the sole reason of support and support leaves a lot to be desired from these companies, it is time to try something else. 

Support doesn't leave anything to be desired.  From what EvilDragon has said IPB's support is top notch.  The forum is operating as intended, that's the problem: he doesn't like the forum itself anymore.

And the things the he just said...

On your first part, that was where most of my rejected long reply went.  Paid support is a different thing altogether than what Jan-Nik (not me, this post is the first time I think I have ever mentioned phpBB, and it was only right here) was asking about.  Your reply to "why not open source?" was support.  I guess I am not following how you can say there can't be an open source solution even if one of the solutions you suggest, but never state, is an open source one...  Also free/libre software is not the same as open source, which I probably misused a few times up there, but I don't think we need to go into that yet again.  I am sure that topic will come up again some time in the next 6 months.

For your second section, maybe we can go back to the old version.  That may be lacking some of the additional functionality, and there are probably other issues.  I may have the wrong view of this, but if the product that was paid for is no longer functioning the way it did when it was purchased, and is not meeting the needs of the customer based on how it is supposed to function, that is a problem that falls into support.  If all someone needs to do to get out of fixing an issue is to say "we changed how it works, it is supposed to be like that" then maybe I just never noticed I am a Luddite.


 

The support for XenForo and IPB4 is free once you bought it (and XenForo costs 140 USD once and then 40 USD a year).
With hiring someone for support, you usually pay a lot more, as they are taking hourly rates.

Thanks for sharing that.  When do you plan to switch over?

 

[comradekingu]

Some people would like to see ED using forum software that fits with some of the other things the Pandora and Pyra seem to be about, so it helps to show that "open source" isn't just being used as a selling point and to cut costs of the devices.

Yes, that is a point to make. Incidentally, there are free software solutions that are good. When we have proprietary solutions that are garbage, which I have been saying all along, nobody is pleased, which seems to be what everyone agrees now.

However, lets not make that same mistake again.

 

[WizardStan]

 I guess I am not following how you can say there can't be an open source solution even if one of the solutions you suggest, but never state, is an open source one...  

I didn't mean to suggest that, I was just caught up in the dichotomy of "paid" vs "free".  The whole point of my post was why paid support is desired.
 

 Also free/libre software is not the same as open source, which I probably misused a few times up there, but I don't think we need to go into that yet again.  I am sure that topic will come up again some time in the next 6 months.

All libre software is open source by necessity, you can't have freedom to change the code if you can't get the code; not all open source is libre though.  By saying "open source" I encompass everything that is "public volunteer development and support" driven regardless of the underlying principle.

Sorry about mixing up you and Jan-Nik though, I got way too invested there.

 

[Neelix]

Right, and if XenForo also doesn't work out for ED (I already see some signs of a problem just trying to get switched over, but that is not their fault) maybe he should consider all options.  That is all I am saying.  This is what I was getting at in post 5.  I totally agree with you on proprietary vs. FLOSS, and there are things I prefer proprietary stuff for, however just because something is proprietary and comes with support doesn't mean it is the best option.

I think you do ED a disservice by implying that he hasn't already given due consideration to his options.

-Neelix

 

 

[comradekingu]

Something that potentially works for all concerns Discourse is more current and new content rather than the divided and hierarchical style that doesn't fit the discussion. There is even a chat plugin, which deals with a lot of the perceived spam problem.

Design-wise is also a fresh take on the old BBS style.

https://meta.discourse.org/t/static-pages-plugin/31027 static pages
https://meta.discourse.org/t/sams-blog-plugin/12656 blog plugin for EDs posts
https://meta.discourse.org/t/more-privacy-hide-parts-of-user-profiles/33244 and if the internal search isnt broken, maybe consider not letting crawlers in
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-translator/32630 interesting concept, could make the need to have two forums go away. Or they could be hosted in different sections. Even smaller languages could have their section without having to be a whole community left to its own devices.

 

[rygD]

 I guess I am not following how you can say there can't be an open source solution even if one of the solutions you suggest, but never state, is an open source one...  

I didn't mean to suggest that, I was just caught up in the dichotomy of "paid" vs "free".  The whole point of my post was why paid support is desired.

 Also free/libre software is not the same as open source, which I probably misused a few times up there, but I don't think we need to go into that yet again.  I am sure that topic will come up again some time in the next 6 months.

All libre software is open source by necessity, you can't have freedom to change the code if you can't get the code; not all open source is libre though.  By saying "open source" I encompass everything that is "public volunteer development and support" driven regardless of the underlying principle.

Sorry about mixing up you and Jan-Nik though, I got way too invested there.

Stop splitting up quotes from me, it makes it hard for me to do that to your quotes.

So we are in agreement, it is best for ED to have someone else handle all the BS and just give him something that meets his needs, which probably involves paying someone.  Right?

There will be plenty of time for us to debate the differences between this terminology.  At least we both understand the basics.  My attention span prevents me from fully understanding some other things, especially stuff coming from Stallman and the FSF (although I think his heart is in the right place.  I suspect he would die if it wasn't.).


 

Right, and if XenForo also doesn't work out for ED (I already see some signs of a problem just trying to get switched over, but that is not their fault) maybe he should consider all options.  That is all I am saying.  This is what I was getting at in post 5.  I totally agree with you on proprietary vs. FLOSS, and there are things I prefer proprietary stuff for, however just because something is proprietary and comes with support doesn't mean it is the best option.

I think you do ED a disservice by implying that he hasn't already given due consideration to his options.

-Neelix

I highly doubt he knows everything there is to know about all forum software.  I wasn't saying he hasn't looked around, however if his current choice...ya know what, I am done repeating myself. 

Edit: I feel the same way you do about the forum software.  We will have something better soon.   (end of edit)

If ED felt slighted he may have addressed it himself.  You do him a disservice by not letting him speak for himself.  Just in case:

EvilDragon, if I said anything you felt was insulting or negative/harmful, that was not my intention and I am sorry.  Thank you for giving us wonderful devices and other cool stuff, and giving us places to learn about and discuss these and other things.  Thank you for all of the time, effort, money, and consideration you give all things related to these projects, and how you go far above and beyond your responsibilities to your customers and others that turn to you.
 

 

[b_o_b]

@comradekingu I might have to get used to it, but discourse just doesn't resonate with me. https://discuss.popcorntime.io/
Not sure what is my biggest problem with it, but I don't like the tags - and too much white space. 

phpbb works fine and looks great and there are a lot of sites using it. I always prefer any open solution - feels like accepting defeat to go with a proprietary solution because it is cheaper or easier. Isn't that the reason as well for not choosing Android, but Linux for Pyra and Pandora?
The lemon phpbb boards are mainly administrated by some technical mods. The administrator is rarely present as far as I can tell so it seems like tasks are delegated without any costs. Maybe ask how they do it?


 

 

[EvilDragon]

If you are waiting to test out the new version of IPB, please don't stay with it just because of all that.  If it fixes most of our complaints keep it, but there are some things that are really bothersome.

If you really want an all in one solution, go for it.  The site and all the behind the scenes stuff is important.  So is users being able to post and work on the wiki.  Currently, as we all know, there are a lot of headaches related to being able to use the boards.  Hopefully XenForo or some currently unexplored option will work out well enough for everyone.
 

IPB4.1 doesn't change much. Yes, the quoting system is fixed, but it still doesn't work on the Pandora (tons of Javascript, etc.) and doesn't offer a BBCode editor, only WYSIWYG, and they don't plan to change that.
XenForo works fine with the Pandora (I tested both).

IPB also changes the databases a lot, so if I upgrade to 4.1, I probably won't be able to convert easily to XenForo.
MyBB supports IPB4 migration, but only with an older version than I have (so 4.0.13 is not compatible anymore to 4.0.0)

For your second section, maybe we can go back to the old version.  That may be lacking some of the additional functionality, and there are probably other issues.  I may have the wrong view of this, but if the product that was paid for is no longer functioning the way it did when it was purchased, and is not meeting the needs of the customer based on how it is supposed to function, that is a problem that falls into support.  If all someone needs to do to get out of fixing an issue is to say "we changed how it works, it is supposed to be like that" then maybe I just never noticed I am a Luddite.

The support for XenForo and IPB4 is free once you bought it (and XenForo costs 140 USD once and then 40 USD a year).With hiring someone for support, you usually pay a lot more, as they are taking hourly rates.

Thanks for sharing that.  When do you plan to switch over?

Switching back to IPB3 is not possible, it's a totally different system, the database changed, etc.

XenForo didn't code an importer yet as they were lacking a database from IPB4.
They got a database from me now (with all passwords, emails, IPs, etc. anything important or private stuff removed, of course) and start coding an importer.

Other people successfully migrated IPB4 to myBB and from myBB to XenForo, but I'd like to avoid hat, if possible.