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Robert Taylor

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Earlier you claimed the opposite. Plus you originally gave the condition, that the universe of your question was not deterministic. You don't get to refute my answer with an argument like, when we can do math better, undeterministic becomes deterministic.
Say what? I am fairly certain I only claimed that computability means determinism and that I cannot see any non-deterministic aspect to the universe.

I am going to have to re-read what I wrote.

EDIT: Yeah, I think you are misreading something somewhere. I want to believe in free will but I have no conceptual way to define it. Even the quantum foam video above is totally unsatisfactory because the universe still seems computable despite particles popping in and out of existence for no particular reason at all.

For example, what is this quantum field, whose energy fluctuation generates particles into and out of existence, made of? Is there a pattern to this quantum foam fluctuation? Are the patterns anything like giant cosmic bugs running around on a sea of this quantum foam generating perturbances which result in these particles and us as a result? If the answer is yes, we should be able to computer how many legs these bugs have and the shape of the perturbances.

I beleive in free will, i just don't see it. I don't think anything I wrote suggests otherwise.
 
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Djoga'Ro

moonstruck
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What could it possibly mean for a universe to exist THAT DOES NOT HAVE DETERMINISM as part of the design, which is required for calculation?
That you couldn't predict the outcome.
Not being able to compute the outcome doesn't mean the universe is unpredictable.
What seems random today may seem deterministic tomorrow if your ability to do math at a greater resolution improves.
However, if you can compute it you can predict the outcome.
Earlier you claimed the opposite. Plus you originally gave the condition, that the universe of your question was not deterministic. You don't get to refute my answer with an argument like, when we can do math better, undeterministic becomes deterministic.
I guess, regarding self-contradiction I misread. Maybe I was thrown off by you mixing absolute with subjective limits without being explicit about it. Plus, to my understanding predictability and computability go hand in hand. With what process do you create a prediction, when not with a computation of some input values based on some axioms?

You want free will and determinism? You can't have both. I'd say, we've got neither. And if we do have one, I'd say it's rather determinism. I'm repeating myself, but Sam Harris comprehensibly explains how there's no such thing as free will. (I should freshen up on his examples/explanation, since whenever I try to reproduce it, it's lost its convincing quality.)
 

JDTAY

Half Pepperoni, All Cheese
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I once read an NDE where a guy said he became aware that in the future, there would be synthetic humans, and that they would come to be the ruling class. He said they would be completely biological, like humans, and that the only real difference between them and us was their thought patterns. Humans tend to have random thoughts intrude upon them, but the synthetic humans would have no such problem, being 100% mindful and purpose-driven.

I tried searching for it for hours once to read it again, but apparently it got removed from the internet. Meh, maybe it was just creepypasta. I only bring this up today because "synthetic humans nde" keeps popping up in my search suggestions.

Edit: One more detail I remember: He said a barefoot guy was running from the synthetic humans, and that he wanted to help by lending his shoes, but realized he couldn't because a microchip in the shoes would trace them back to him. It was sort of a future life memory.
 
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Robert Taylor

Very Active Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2017
Messages
299
I once read an NDE where a guy said he became aware that in the future, there would be synthetic humans, and that they would come to be the ruling class. He said they would be completely biological, like humans, and that the only real difference between them and us was their thought patterns. Humans tend to have random thoughts intrude upon them, but the synthetic humans would have no such problem, being 100% mindful and purpose-driven.

I tried searching for it for hours once to read it again, but apparently it got removed from the internet. Meh, maybe it was just creepypasta. I only bring this up today because "synthetic humans nde" keeps popping up in my search suggestions.

Edit: One more detail I remember: He said a barefoot guy was running from the synthetic humans, and that he wanted to help by lending his shoes, but realized he couldn't because a microchip in the shoes would trace them back to him. It was sort of a future life memory.

Apparently James Cameron had a dream about a robot coming back from the future and killing everyone, thereby creating Terminator.

I love these kinds of stories. My fav is the John Titor story. https://www.thrillist.com/entertainment/nation/john-titor-time-traveler-predictions-story

I once had a dream that the devil and god swapped places every 1000 years or so and that at the end of each epoch one captures the other and puts them in a cage for a thousand years. All of this took place in the house from the Poltergeist movie with Pterodactyls flying in the sky in the background.
 

Djoga'Ro

moonstruck
Joined
Apr 3, 2016
Messages
1,615
Yeah, I'm going to ignore anything Sam has to say. He is the crazy cat lady of intellectuals.
Well, I don't know of anyone else making an equally good case.

Still, were does a prediction come from if not from computation?
How can you have determinism _and_ free will?
 

JDTAY

Half Pepperoni, All Cheese
Joined
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I love these kinds of stories.
I mentioned on these forums before, maybe in this very thread, that I had a dream that time in the afterlife ran in the opposite direction of our time. Not meaning that everything there happens backwards, but more like, if you're here, it looks backwards there, but if you're there watching us, we look like the ones going backwards.

It actually made me excited, because it explained how immortality could work without the need for a never-ending universe, nor a never-ending afterlife. Basically you just keep switching between here and there.
 
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