The Argument Shed

[Klown]

I smell a massive anti-muslim attitude being lead by the press shortly. *sigh*

​

We have to remain vigilant of our muslim friends though dont we? If a middle eastern looking fellow gets on my train/bus (whatever), I'm going to be watching him.

It's nothing to "*sigh*" about.

​

[/quote]
I can't tell if you are joking because of your sig. I'll assume you are not and i'll just stare blankly at you.

 

[Kop_007]

Obviously I dont condone discrimination against muslims in the form of attacking shops, mosques etc, I'm just saying that we need to be more aware of those muslims around us.

After all, these 4 London Bombers were born and raised in Leeds. Supposedly upstanding citizens...if they can turn to Isamlic extremism..what's to say that others cant as well.

We need to be aware of this.

 

[Klown]

I think you are discriminating by actively being more suspicous of those in the muslim faith. That attitude only breeds racism and will lead to a rather nasty social gulf between the muslim community and the general public. Guess what that breeds? Racism and extremism from both sides!

 

[Kop_007]

Yeah, I see your point. But, in times of terrorism we do need to be more vigilant...and at the moment, the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremists...so by paying closer attention to them, I'm not being racist, I'm just being smart.

 

[LHC]

Yeah, I see your point. But, in times of terrorism we do need to be more vigilant...and at the moment, the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremists...so by paying closer attention to them, I'm not being racist, I'm just being smart.

​

It's fairly understandable, but it's still racism.

You can't see who is an extremist and who is a good guy just by looking at their face, and as such it's pretty unfair to look at a random guy suspiciously. They haven't done anything wrong and shouldn't be punished for it.

 

[Klown]

Yeah, I see your point. But, in times of terrorism we do need to be more vigilant...and at the moment, the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremists...so by paying closer attention to them, I'm not being racist, I'm just being smart.

​

It isn't smart though. If you isolate the muslim community it will only cause unrest and a rise in potential extremism. It's a tough situation and a vicious cycle.

 

[Kop_007]

Yeah, I see your point. But, in times of terrorism we do need to be more vigilant...and at the moment, the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremists...so by paying closer attention to them, I'm not being racist, I'm just being smart.

​

It's fairly understandable, but it's still racism.

You can't see who is an extremist and who is a good guy just by looking at their face, and as such it's pretty unfair to look at a random guy suspiciously. They haven't done anything wrong and shouldn't be punished for it.

​

...and I'll just look at them out of the corner of my eye then...they wont know..no harm done. No-one punished.

I still think we shoud wrap muslim terrorists in bacon though to deter future attacks.

 

[Klown]

...and I'll just look at them out of the corner of my eye then...they wont know..no harm done. No-one punished.

​

And if everybody holds this attitude and does this, It will be totally below the radar of those foolish muslims? This kind of attitude will be detected and will be ebbed on and amplified by the media.

I still think we shoud wrap muslim terrorists in bacon though to deter future attacks.

​

Oh no and that won't totally belittle and offend a major religion as well as cause even more hatred amoungst fundamentallists.

 

[Kop_007]

Yeah, I see your point. But, in times of terrorism we do need to be more vigilant...and at the moment, the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremists...so by paying closer attention to them, I'm not being racist, I'm just being smart.

​

It isn't smart though. If you isolate the muslim community it will only cause unrest and a rise in potential extremism. It's a tough situation and a vicious cycle.

​

Supposed Mulims are the ones commiting these acts of terrorism though...so they are the one we need to focus on.

So, you would you not send police to an area of high crime because it will get on the nerves of the criminals there? Because that's what you're saying. Dont produce the race card again. I dont care if it's Muslims, whites or even midgets commiting crimes, it just doesn't matter. Whoever it is...the same rules apply.

Dont you see, you're getting wrapped up in political correctness when all we need to do is look at the truths...

 

[Klown]

Yeah, I see your point. But, in times of terrorism we do need to be more vigilant...and at the moment, the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremists...so by paying closer attention to them, I'm not being racist, I'm just being smart.

​

It isn't smart though. If you isolate the muslim community it will only cause unrest and a rise in potential extremism. It's a tough situation and a vicious cycle.

​

Supposed Mulims are the ones commiting these acts of terrorism though...so they are the one we need to focus on.

So, you would you not send police to an area of high crime because it will get on the nerves of the criminals there? Because that's what you're saying. Dont produce the race card again. I dont care if it's Muslims, whites or even midgets commiting crimes, it just doesn't matter. Whoever it is...the same rules apply.

Dont you see, you're getting wrapped up in political correctness when all we need to do is look at the truths...

​

You fail to get my point. This isn't about political correctness. Yes it's true that a minority of the muslim community is commiting these acts but that is a MINORITY. If you pressure and scrutinize the entire population, the innocents will be affected badly. Now I know you are saying 'well too bad' but it has negative consequences. Eventually you will push these people to the extremes as they will become tired of being treated as second class. This can and will lead to more extremism and thus more potential for attacks.

I am pushing the race card because it is part of the vicious cycle. A muslimn community is not a 'high crime area'. The main leaders of the muslim community speak out against racism, it is extremists, the rather vocal minorty who commit the offenses. You are being racist by treating all muslims as potential terrortists.

 

[Kop_007]

I still think we shoud wrap muslim terrorists in bacon though to deter future attacks.

​

Oh no and that won't totally belittle and offend a major religion as well as cause even more hatred amoungst fundamentallists.

​

Well, that's were this plan is perfect.

Islam is a peaceful religion, right?

Islamic terrorists kill people.

Islamic leaders say these terrorists aren't of Islam because of what they do. So, how would this offend them? if they are not of Islam, how would it offend them? It wouln't...or at least it shouldn't....if they beleive what they say.

The only people it offends is the terrorists who believe they are of Islam. They believe that once they have commited an act such as a suicide bombing, they will go to heaven. If they are kept from heaven by this bacon wrapping, then it will deter them. Make them angry? Yes...but what are they going to do about? They attack us, they're not going to heaven. Problem solved.

 

[Klown]

You are making no sense. The islamic community has denounced these people but they are still considered to be islamic. Suprisingly enough people get a little angry when even the bad seeds of their religion are used as figureheads of abuse and belittlement. It's the same as nailing a so called fundamentalist christian to a cross, if he shoots up a post office. It is not acceptable.

I'm pretty sure that somebody who is willing to commit an act of murder for their religion would be perfectly happy if it ment them going to their religious hell. It will not deter terrorists, it will make them more angry and more willing.

 

[Kop_007]

Yeah, I see your point. But, in times of terrorism we do need to be more vigilant...and at the moment, the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremists...so by paying closer attention to them, I'm not being racist, I'm just being smart.

​

It isn't smart though. If you isolate the muslim community it will only cause unrest and a rise in potential extremism. It's a tough situation and a vicious cycle.

​

Supposed Mulims are the ones commiting these acts of terrorism though...so they are the one we need to focus on.

So, you would you not send police to an area of high crime because it will get on the nerves of the criminals there? Because that's what you're saying. Dont produce the race card again. I dont care if it's Muslims, whites or even midgets commiting crimes, it just doesn't matter. Whoever it is...the same rules apply.

Dont you see, you're getting wrapped up in political correctness when all we need to do is look at the truths...

​

You fail to get my point. This isn't about political correctness. Yes it's true that a minority of the muslim community is commiting these acts but that is a MINORITY. If you pressure and scrutinize the entire population, the innocents will be affected badly. Now I know you are saying 'well too bad' but it has negative consequences. Eventually you will push these people to the extremes as they will become tired of being treated as second class. This can and will lead to more extremism and thus more potential for attacks.

I am pushing the race card because it is part of the vicious cycle. A muslimn community is not a 'high crime area'. The main leaders of the muslim community speak out against racism, it is extremists, the rather vocal minorty who commit the offenses. You are being racist by treating all muslims as potential terrortists.

​

Stop putting words into my mouth. A more vigilant examination of Muslim areas will weed out this minority.

Why does this mean treating Muslims like second class citizens? It doesn't.

Why will this lead to more extremism? You're contadicting yourself by saying this and then saying you can treat muslims as potential terrorists. True muslims want an end to this terrorism as much as we do, they will co-operate and appreciate an extra police presence in their area to eradicate the extremists.

That fact is, mostly muslims commit these acts of terrorism, so we need to pay closer attention to muslim populations. FACT. How can you argue against this? That's just the way it is I'm afraid.

 

[Kop_007]

The islamic community has denounced these people but they are still considered to be islamic.

​

Thankyou.

 

[Klown]

Stop putting words into my mouth. A more vigilant examination of Muslim areas will weed out this minority.

Why does this mean treating Muslims like second class citizens? It doesn't.

​

How does one find an extremist? Are we going to check all muslims personal records? Are we going to check their homes? Dig up information on them? If so that would be treating them like I said, as suspects. If not, we won't find a thing because I doubt you can tell the difference between a terrorist and a normal person at face value

Why will this lead to more extremism? You're contadicting yourself by saying this and then saying you can treat muslims as potential terrorists. True muslims want an end to this terrorism as much as we do, they will co-operate and appreciate an extra police presence in their area to eradicate the extremists.

​

That's the idealistic view. The truth is ordinary people do not like to be portrayed as terrorists and extremists in the media. They do not like their lives being probed because there is a possibility one of them may be a terrorist. People will get angry at this and will want to speak out against it. This is where the extremists can hoodwink people to their side.

I don't think you'd like me checking all of your records and personal details because one person out of the 10,000 in your town may be a terrorist. I'm not contradicting myself, i'm describing one of the many vicious cycles that exist today when it comes down to race.

That fact is, mostly muslims commit these acts of terrorism, so we need to pay closer attention to muslim populations. FACT. How can you argue against this? That's just the way it is I'm afraid.

​

This is the dillema, the thing is finding a balance you can't scrutinise an entire population because 0.1% of them may be terrorists. It is not acceptable.

FAKE EDIT: Excuse the loop in that last line. "the islamic community has denonced these people but they still consider themselves to be islamic"

 

[Kop_007]

I will go on if you want...

...but the only thing we're ever going to agree on here is that we disagree.

We could go at it in circles all day.

So, in what I hope is my closing statement, I would like to sum up what I've said for anyone who doesn't want to read all of that:

- it is mostly muslims who undertake acts of terrorism in the West, as such, we (as individuals in our every day lives) should be more vigilant towards those who we beleive to be Muslim...whilst not actively discriminating against them (being vigilant is not discriminating or being racist).

- Counter-Terrorist forces shoud concentrate their resources on Muslims as they make up the majority of terrorists in the West.

- We should wrap terrorists in bacon to deter future terrorism. If Islamic leaders are offended by this...then they are hypocrites, as they temselves denounce Islamic terrorists as not part of Islam...or even if they are part of Islam, they are not true to the faith.

I think that's it.

 

[mattmagoo]

By observing muslims, and remaining fair and just you would have to look out for rapist, murderers and IRA members

truth be told i think a fair minority of muslims fall in to these catagories

so unless you consider sitting on a bus and staring at everyone that looks "a little shifty" or is eating a potatoe then you cannot "keep an eye out" for muslims

also, if we stopped pissing off muslim contries im sure they would be less willing to kill us

 

[shinneri]

Okay, this place has cooled down a bit. Good.


As nice as what you say is, Klown, Kop is right. It would be foolish to completely disregard the muslim connection to terrorism, as it seems you hope to do. Are we more likely to see a terror attack from a Christian American or a Muslim of a Middle Eastern, terror-sponsoring country? The answer is obvious. It's unfortunate, of course, but it's rational. I would be more leary of the Muslim individual. Just to prevent me from being called intolerant/racist, are we more likely to see an attack come from an American Muslim or one from a terror-sponsoring nation of the Middle East? This is logic.

We didn't suspect Canadians when we were fighting the Nazi Germans in WWII. That would be foolish and put our lives in danger.

I'm sure Kop doesn't want to think that way; what decent person would? But it's more logical than your "blame no one" approach because the simple fact is there are guilty parties here, and far and away they are Muslim (don't try and say I think all Muslims are guilty... I don't). Does this mean look down on Muslims? Not in the slightest. Does this mean to treat them differently? No. It's just reasonable to be more cautious around a suspicious-looking (you know, angry-looking, behaving oddly, etc.) Muslim individual... which is exactly how I would approach any suspicious person.

 

[Klown]

I shall make my closing remarks also.

- Scrutinising a population based on a minority is not a clever idea. Yes this is the meaning behind the vigilance you want, to be constantly keeping an eye on muslims regardless. By the same logic we should scrutinize all white males as they are the most liklely to murder. This is not acceptable logic.

- Being Vigilant against a certain population because there is an incredibly small minority of them who commit terrorism, is infact racist.

- We shouldn't commit a racist act that will offend an entire religion based on an extremist. If they are denounced as not Islamic there is no point in doing it at all. It's just pointless and offensive.

- The issue is complex and is difficult to address. It is not a black and white issue of "monitor the baddies".

 

[jegHegy]

you will surely defend your nation against terrorism by LOOKING AT PEOPLE.