The Argument Shed

[Klown]

I'm going to have to repeat what i've said again.

It would be foolish to completely disregard the muslim connection to terrorism, as it seems you hope to do. Are we more likely to see a terror attack from a Christian American or a Muslim of a Middle Eastern, terror-sponsoring country?.

I'm sure Kop doesn't want to think that way; what decent person would? But it's more logical than your "blame no one" approach because the simple fact is there are guilty parties here, and far and away they are Muslim (don't try and say I think all Muslims are guilty... I don't). Does this mean look down on Muslims? Not in the slightest. Does this mean to treat them differently? No. It's just reasonable to be more cautious around a suspicious-looking (you know, angry-looking, behaving oddly, etc.) Muslim individual... which is exactly how I would approach any suspicious person.

​

Again. The attacks are carried out by a very small minority. You would not like it if there was a stigma against your town because 4 people went on a murder spree. It is completely unfair to be tarred with the brush of a minority of evil people. Most murders are commited by white males. Should all women fear and suspicous around us because of this? No. No. No because they are in a minority of the population

I'm sure Kop doesn't want to think that way; what decent person would? But it's more logical than your "blame no one" approach because the simple fact is there are guilty parties here, and far and away they are Muslim (don't try and say I think all Muslims are guilty... I don't).

​

Wait what? The guilty parties are muslim but don't make you sound like you are saying that? The guilty party are not muslims, they are an extremist offshoot of islam: They are a MINORITY.

Does this mean look down on Muslims? Not in the slightest. Does this mean to treat them differently? No. It's just reasonable to be more cautious around a suspicious-looking (you know, angry-looking, behaving oddly, etc.) Muslim individual... which is exactly how I would approach any suspicious person.

​

Well I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Don't treat muslims differently, just be catuious around any suspicious person? That is what i'm wanting, I want people to not treat muslims with more suspicion that other people.

Still nobody refutes the base logic behind all my points. I'll break it down:
- An extremist group of muslims blow up a tube station
- The press and public opinion shifts and people become catious around muslim people
- This will become obvious to that population and will annoy them because they are also against the attacks and they want to be treated normally.
- The social gulf will continue to grow and the muslim community will become more and more isolated.
- Extremists use this as a way of getting some of the muslim community to ralley behind them.
- The situation just leads to more problems.

It's the cycle of racism. It's how it works.

 

[KickinWing]

i feel that it sometimes seems these acts of terrorism that are aimed towards the US, UK, Spain, any other free nation could be out of jealousy for being free. I mean, the middle east is mainly muslim, though there are different strands of muslims, like the shiite, etc. Most of these countries are very rich with oil profits, yet the people suffer because of their leaders. But take Kuwait as an example. When was the last time Kuwait invaded someone, or was trying to make chemical weapons or something. It hasn't been because they seem to have good leaders there.

I don't really have a point, i just feel that if these nations like Iran and the like actually spread the wealth to its citizens that there would be alot less anger than there is now towards other wealthy nations.

 

[Kop_007]

I'm going to have to repeat what i've said again.

It would be foolish to completely disregard the muslim connection to terrorism, as it seems you hope to do. Are we more likely to see a terror attack from a Christian American or a Muslim of a Middle Eastern, terror-sponsoring country?.

I'm sure Kop doesn't want to think that way; what decent person would? But it's more logical than your "blame no one" approach because the simple fact is there are guilty parties here, and far and away they are Muslim (don't try and say I think all Muslims are guilty... I don't). Does this mean look down on Muslims? Not in the slightest. Does this mean to treat them differently? No. It's just reasonable to be more cautious around a suspicious-looking (you know, angry-looking, behaving oddly, etc.) Muslim individual... which is exactly how I would approach any suspicious person.

​

Again. The attacks are carried out by a very small minority. You would not like it if there was a stigma against your town because 4 people went on a murder spree. It is completely unfair to be tarred with the brush of a minority of evil people. Most murders are commited by white males. Should all women fear and suspicous around us because of this? No. No. No because they are in a minority of the population

Yeah, but white males who commit murder don't do it because they are white males.

Whereas, Muslims who commit acts of terrorism do it becaue they are Muslim.

See...?

(I'm not back, I'm leaving it at that).

 

[shinneri]

Well I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Don't treat muslims differently, just be catuious around any suspicious person? That is what i'm wanting, I want people to not treat muslims with more suspicion that other people.

​

Well, that's my point. But with terrorism in mind, we can't overlook the Muslim connection.

 

[LHC]

You know, I heard this story once where this gay guy, right, well he fucking raped a kid.

Watch out for gays.

 

[Klown]

Yeah, but white males who commit murder don't do it because they are white males.

Whereas, Muslims who commit acts of terrorism do it becaue they are Muslim.

See...?

(I'm not back, I'm leaving it at that).

​

Well, that's my point. But with terrorism in mind, we can't overlook the Muslim connection.

We can't overlook it but we can't over-blow it in the publics eye and use it to treat muslims differently based on this minority.

 

[Magus 86]

Alright, look... I understand what those of you who think we should be watching out for muslims are saying... Of course you wouldn't be suspicious of Canada during World War II, there'd be no reason for that, but being suspicious of anybody with a German or Japanese name and throwing them into camps(which we actually did, at least to the Japanese... not too sure about the Germans though) is NOT the way to keep ourselves "safe." All that does is piss people off and give them more of a reason to BECOME our enemies. It makes more enemies and does very little to actually protect us against the enemies we already had.

There's a reason we have muslim terrorists, people. Like I already said earlier in this thread, all the stuff we've been doing since about 1950 has pissed off a lot of people in the middle east. We've created our own problems... and whenever there's any kind of problem, it seems like this country goes into profiling/racism mode. Here's the thing though... You don't say "omg, there's a Muslim(suspicious or not), I'm gonna stare at him!" You watch ANY suspicious person, not just Muslims, and you watch only those who are suspicious. Just because most of the terrorists we HEAR ABOUT today are Muslim doesn't mean no others exist or that any others are any less of a threat to us.

KickinWing, that is a crock of shit. They don't hate us because we're free. They hate us because we went to the Middle East and started dictating shit like it's our freakin' land. And if they're pissed at their leaders, then why aren't they attacking them instead of us? Maybe they think they're not powerful enough to do that... or maybe they don't really care and would rather attack the people of the Country that assassinated the old leader and put the new one in power there...

 

[Kop_007]

Yeah, but white males who commit murder don't do it because they are white males.

Whereas, Muslims who commit acts of terrorism do it becaue they are Muslim.

See...?

(I'm not back, I'm leaving it at that).

​

You know I'm right so you resort to a clutching at straw picture?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Klown]

Nope. Look at what it is and look at the file name. Straw man. Now go look that up and you'll understand my comeback.

 

[Magus 86]

I'm going to have to repeat what i've said again.

It would be foolish to completely disregard the muslim connection to terrorism, as it seems you hope to do. Are we more likely to see a terror attack from a Christian American or a Muslim of a Middle Eastern, terror-sponsoring country?.

I'm sure Kop doesn't want to think that way; what decent person would? But it's more logical than your "blame no one" approach because the simple fact is there are guilty parties here, and far and away they are Muslim (don't try and say I think all Muslims are guilty... I don't). Does this mean look down on Muslims? Not in the slightest. Does this mean to treat them differently? No. It's just reasonable to be more cautious around a suspicious-looking (you know, angry-looking, behaving oddly, etc.) Muslim individual... which is exactly how I would approach any suspicious person.

​

Again. The attacks are carried out by a very small minority. You would not like it if there was a stigma against your town because 4 people went on a murder spree. It is completely unfair to be tarred with the brush of a minority of evil people. Most murders are commited by white males. Should all women fear and suspicous around us because of this? No. No. No because they are in a minority of the population

Yeah, but white males who commit murder don't do it because they are white males.

Whereas, Muslims who commit acts of terrorism do it becaue they are Muslim.

See...?

(I'm not back, I'm leaving it at that).

​

What the fuck? Muslims who are terrorists are only terrorists because of their Muslim faith? Well then what's the reason for every other non-muslim terrorist? Some people would say Tim McVeigh was a terrorist... he was American... and do you know why he blew up the Murray building in Oklahoma City? If I remember correctly, it was because(bear with me here, It's been a while since I've reviewed this crap, so I might not have everything 100% right) he personally got screwed over somehow by the military/government. I don't know for sure if that's true or not, but I DO know for a fact that he was pissed off about Waco and some other incident in which the government harassed the hell out of some guy for pretty much no reason(he might have owned some guns or something I think, but he wasn't really doing anything wrong from what I remember) and then attacked his house and ended up killing his entire family, including his dog.

My point here is that people don't normally do something just because of something like being Muslim... of course the fact that they're Muslims helps, but that's because they hear about other fellow Muslims being shit on by the west. If there was some gigantic prejudice against German Americans, and they were being persecuted, I'd be pissed off. I'd be pissed off if there was a prejudice against anybody like that(as I am now already and have always been about the way white americans look down on everybody else most of the time), but because I'm of German ancestry, I'd be even more pissed if others were being persecuted and be much more likely to join a coup of other German Americans if one were created... but that doesn't mean I'm only doing what I'm doing because of what I am. It's not like Muslims woke up one morning and decided to start killing us for no reason whatsoever.

 

[Kop_007]

Ah, a straw man.

Are you sure you shouln't be using that to describe yourself.

I fear that it is this PC naivity that will get us all blown to bits my muslim extremists.

 

[shinneri]

Magus, do you think every Nazi believed in what he was doing? No, but knew if he didn't, he'd be dead. If these people speak out, their oppressive governments will deal with them. That's why they stay silent. And also, there's a growing number of Iranian youth who WANT their regime thrown out, and I believe, in time, they will succeed in doing so.

And this kind of supports Klown's last post (I agree with what you're saying, Klown, so far I think the media has been fair), but the media has great power of persuasion, and it isn't difficult to rally an entire nation against the USA. I agree with Kickin_Wing; they hate our freedom because they don't want their people to know of it, which will keep them in power. We never "started dictating shit like it's our freakin' land." I don't know where you getting an idea like that, actually..

 

[Klown]

Kop: Again. Have you even read my points and tried to retort them before sinking to childish nonsense? I'm pretty sure you haven't understood a word i've said.

 

[Kop_007]

I'm going to have to repeat what i've said again.

It would be foolish to completely disregard the muslim connection to terrorism, as it seems you hope to do. Are we more likely to see a terror attack from a Christian American or a Muslim of a Middle Eastern, terror-sponsoring country?.

I'm sure Kop doesn't want to think that way; what decent person would? But it's more logical than your "blame no one" approach because the simple fact is there are guilty parties here, and far and away they are Muslim (don't try and say I think all Muslims are guilty... I don't). Does this mean look down on Muslims? Not in the slightest. Does this mean to treat them differently? No. It's just reasonable to be more cautious around a suspicious-looking (you know, angry-looking, behaving oddly, etc.) Muslim individual... which is exactly how I would approach any suspicious person.

​

Again. The attacks are carried out by a very small minority. You would not like it if there was a stigma against your town because 4 people went on a murder spree. It is completely unfair to be tarred with the brush of a minority of evil people. Most murders are commited by white males. Should all women fear and suspicous around us because of this? No. No. No because they are in a minority of the population

Yeah, but white males who commit murder don't do it because they are white males.

Whereas, Muslims who commit acts of terrorism do it becaue they are Muslim.

See...?

(I'm not back, I'm leaving it at that).

​

What the fuck? Muslims who are terrorists are only terrorists because of their Muslim faith? Well then what's the reason for every other non-muslim terrorist? Some people would say Tim McVeigh was a terrorist... he was American... and do you know why he blew up the Murray building in Oklahoma City? If I remember correctly, it was because(bear with me here, It's been a while since I've reviewed this crap, so I might not have everything 100% right) he personally got screwed over somehow by the military/government. I don't know for sure if that's true or not, but I DO know for a fact that he was pissed off about Waco and some other incident in which the government harassed the hell out of some guy for pretty much no reason(he might have owned some guns or something I think, but he wasn't really doing anything wrong from what I remember) and then attacked his house and ended up killing his entire family, including his dog.

My point here is that people don't normally do something just because of something like being Muslim... of course the fact that they're Muslims helps, but that's because they hear about other fellow Muslims being shit on by the west. If there was some gigantic prejudice against German Americans, and they were being persecuted, I'd be pissed off. I'd be pissed off if there was a prejudice against anybody like that(as I am now already and have always been about the way white americans look down on everybody else most of the time), but because I'm of German ancestry, I'd be even more pissed if others were being persecuted and be much more likely to join a coup of other German Americans if one were created... but that doesn't mean I'm only doing what I'm doing because of what I am. It's not like Muslims woke up one morning and decided to start killing us for no reason whatsoever.

​

The 4 London bombers were from the UK. They did it because they were Muslim....yes, they oviously had exterior influences based on other events, but why were they targeted? Because they were Muslim. They are waging Jihad....Muslims are the ones who have brought this term to the western world...the vast majority of Muslim terrorists are fighting a jihad.

 

[Kop_007]

Kop: Again. Have you even read my points and tried to retort them before sinking to childish nonsense? I'm pretty sure you haven't understood a word i've said.

​

You have the right to believe what you want, but to me and many others, it is simply rubbish.

It's naive, overly PC and idiotic to believe that the world can be like that when musilm terrorism exists.

 

[Mark]

You know, I heard this story once where this gay guy, right, well he fucking raped a kid.

Watch out for gays.

​

I think we should wrap all dead gays in vaginas to deter other gays.

Who's with me?

 

[Magus 86]

Magus, do you think every Nazi believed in what he was doing? No, but knew if he didn't, he'd be dead. If these people speak out, their oppressive governments will deal with them. That's why they stay silent. And also, there's a growing number of Iranian youth who WANT their regime thrown out, and I believe, in time, they will succeed in doing so.

And this kind of supports Klown's last post (I agree with what you're saying, Klown, so far I think the media has been fair), but the media has great power of persuasion, and it isn't difficult to rally an entire nation against the USA. I agree with Kickin_Wing; they hate our freedom because they don't want their people to know of it, which will keep them in power. We never "started dictating shit like it's our freakin' land." I don't know where you getting an idea like that, actually..

​

The hell we didn't... We helped to put a lot of those oppressive leaders in power.

"they hate our freedom because they don't want their people to know of it..." Um... I think you mean that the other way around... they don't want their people to know about it because they hate it... because that gives THEM(the leaders) less "freedom" to do whatever they want to their people and not have consequences that come back and bite them in the ass. But those leaders aren't the ones strapping bombs to themselves and blowing americans up, are they?

Even if they don't want their people to know about our freedom, they already do know about it, and if it has anything to do with not having freedom, then they're pissed at us for helping to put their shitty oppressive leaders in power, eliminating almost any chance of ever being free for the people who are now pissed and trying to kill us.

I'm getting that "idea" from a thing called HISTORY. Go read a book about it. You might learn something(by the way, just in case this is somehow not clear enough, I'm referring to America, not England, Spain, or any other country KickinWing mentioned... but it's most likely because those other countries are America's allies that they're being attacked too).

And for the record, I'd sooner die than do something that everyone around me thinks/wants me to do, especially if they want me to fight for a cause I don't believe in. If I was in Nazi Germany, I wouldn't buy into the madness... if I ended up dead because of it, then so be it... but your analogy doesn't fit anyway because it's not like the muslim fundamentalists are in power and forcing everybody else who lives in the countries where they live to join some huge anti-american movement and killing those who don't join it.

It's not an attempt to be PC to not be a discriminating asshole to anybody of a certain culture. THAT'S WHAT WILL MAKE THE SITUATION WORSE. It has nothing to do with political correctness. I don't give a flying fuck about Political Correctness. In most cases, it's a crock of shit anyway... What makes you think that watching every muslim like a hawk will make us all safe? Would you like it if You were stared at angrily or fearfully by everybody for no reason other than the fact that you look like someone from a certain region of the globe?

Most likely if the attackers in London weren't Muslims, they wouldn't have done anything... but then someone else would have taken their places, and it would have happened anyway... but there's a reason Muslims are pissed and attacking people. It's not just because they're Muslim. It's part of the reason, but it's not the only reason. No matter how much you want to believe it, Muslim does not equal Terrorist, just like German does not(and did not) equal Nazi.

 

[Klown]

Kop: Again. Have you even read my points and tried to retort them before sinking to childish nonsense? I'm pretty sure you haven't understood a word i've said.

​

You have the right to believe what you want, but to me and many others, it is simply rubbish.

It's naive, overly PC and idiotic to believe that the world can be like that when musilm terrorism exists.

​

I'm sorry but I haven't said anything 'overly PC'. I'm just making some logical and simple observations. To call my views idiotic without any REAL rebuttals is quite offensive. Please, if you will, respond to every point i've made with a decent counter arguement or just stop posting.

 

[Kop_007]

I shall make my closing remarks also.- Scrutinising a population based on a minority is not a clever idea. Yes this is the meaning behind the vigilance you want, to be constantly keeping an eye on muslims regardless. By the same logic we should scrutinize all white males as they are the most liklely to murder. This is not acceptable logic.

Already stated, white males dont commit murder because they are white males. Whereas islamic terrorist commit these acts because of their religion. Totally different.

- Being Vigilant against a certain population because there is an incredibly small minority of them who commit terrorism, is infact racist.

Flawed. The majority of terrorists are Muslim. A minority of Muslims are terrorists. So what does that mean? It means that if you want to catch terrorists, you look at the Muslims.

- We shouldn't commit a racist act that will offend an entire religion based on an extremist. If they are denounced as not Islamic there is no point in doing it at all. It's just pointless and offensive.

Islamic leaders say terrorists are not part of Islam - why would it offend them? It's only offensive to the 'Islamic' (or not so) terrorist. If Islamic leaders get offended, then they are hypocrites

- The issue is complex and is difficult to address. It is not a black and white issue of "monitor the baddies".

​

Agreed. But a good place to start a terrorist investigation is a Muslim community.

You haven't said anything overly PC? You're more or less saying that Muslimism has no links to terrorism...in the hope that we dont offend Muslims who are not guilty of these crimes.

 

[shinneri]

The hell we didn't... We helped to put a lot of those oppressive leaders in power.

​

Oh yeah? Enlighten me. Only one I can think of would be in Afghanistan.. Indeed we did help fight off the Russian invasion there.. but we were helping the Afghans. Of course, that did turn out to be a mistake.

"they hate our freedom because they don't want their people to know of it..." Um... I think you mean that the other way around... they don't want their people to know about it because they hate it... because that gives THEM(the leaders) less "freedom" to do whatever they want to their people and not have consequences that come back and bite them in the ass. But those leaders aren't the ones strapping bombs to themselves and blowing americans up, are they?

​

I don't really know what you're saying... I think you're agreeing with me? However you want to put it, they don't want freedom because they want control... and they influence their people to hate us, so that they will not consider our freedom good or something they want.

Even if they don't want their people to know about our freedom, they already do know about it, and if it has anything to do with not having freedom, then they're pissed at us for helping to put their shitty oppressive leaders in power, eliminating almost any chance of ever being free for the people who are now pissed and trying to kill us.

​

And yet you're against the Iraq war, I presume, which gives the Iraqi people a good, representative government?

And for the record, I'd sooner die than do something that everyone around me thinks/wants me to do, especially if they want me to fight for a cause I don't believe in. If I was in Nazi Germany, I wouldn't buy into the madness... if I ended up dead because of it, then so be it... but your analogy doesn't fit anyway because it's not like the muslim fundamentalists are in power and forcing everybody else who lives in the countries where they live to join some huge anti-american movement and killing those who don't join it.

​

If that's true, good for you. I'd like to think I would be the same way, but you can't really know until you're put in that situation.