Some Clarifications On Pre-Orders

[RajTakhar]

To see progress .. look at MWestons update on having done some work on the top half of the FDM unit, he is awaiting the bottom half of the unit to complete the FDM - expect it very soon.

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...46225&st=15

Craig has already stated they have the LCD's at the start of this thread

In addition to this glance at the developers sections and you will see the drivers for the DSP and 3D have been unveiled

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=46247

If that was not enough - Googles Android OS has had a quick port to the BeagleBoard which means a couple of tweaks and it will run on the Pandora - so should be able to use the Pandora as PDA only option from a SD card .. damn the video shows it loading on BeagleBoard very quick

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry690605

That opens up the possibilities on the Pandora yet again as there are loads of apps out there for android OS

We are so close to seeing the Pandora being rolled out .. just need some patience, and general common sense that the fruits of the project will be with us shortly.

 

[calzone]

Please don’t tie me up and apply flaming torches, I’m just being honest and trying to make sense of all this.

But your thread has a slight hint of negativity to it! That's just not allowed! That means you are fair game and not a REAL 'Pandorian' or even part of the community!

The community states that you have to check this forum daily to get any news and there's only ever something about twice a month. No newsletters or emails come out as they only do that when they want your money!

Jaquelyn has been a star, she is super prompt at replying to emails, even late at night.

If only Craig and the rest of the OP team had that level of commitment in keeping the people who are throwing £800,000 at them so happy!!!!!!!

 

[MDave]

I think your misunderstanding something here.

It doesn't matter which account the credit card money goes in. It's not the matter of the account being established, it's the matter of why such huge amounts of money are coming in from purchasing an un-established product in such short time. The Pandora itself.

Craig says it didn't matter few years ago with the GPH products, because back then the banks weren't that fussy. Times and attitudes change for the banks over time. Then during the pre-order period for the Pandora, the economy climate wasn't exactly in good shape, was it? This is enough for the banks to do paranoid, especially for a new start up company.

He accepted credit card orders, and look what happened? They all got refunded from the BANK's end.

After that, craig was still trying to make credit card orders possible.

Bank's were un-cooperative, even stopping refunds for the AMEX people.

What chance is there that the same problems would happen if the money were going into a different account?

Not only is that risky, its downright stupid.

It sucks major ass though.

And another thing. People are taking it that craig is not allowing credit card purchases full stop. Not true, people will be able to in 4-6 months time when the Banks want to, not craig. It makes no difference to craig when, except there won't be as many people being able to purchase pandoras or as fast until they can.

Stop laying the blame on the wrong people.

 

[WizardStan]

It's too expensive to live in the US.

I'm sorry, but that is the funniest thing said this entire thread. If you think the US is expensive, imagine spending $8 per gallon on gas every once in a while. Housing is way down now, and when the Canadian dollar hit parity with the USD, it became economical to buy a car from the US despite the massive import tax, so low is the price of automobiles in the US.
The US is (for the time being) one of the cheapest places to live, and if you can't afford things because of debt, you have no one to blame but yourself. Stop buying things! Unfortunately this includes the Pandora.

 

[Phawx]

WizardStan is correct. Housing is probably the only thing expensive in US. Otherwise everything is very cheap here. If the only way you can afford the Pandora is through credit, you really shouldn't be buying one.

Though I hate debt with a passion. Mortgages I see differently because, generally, real estate is an investment and I normally don't have $300,000 laying around.

But anything under 10k shouldn't be sitting on CC as debt.

 

[airbeckley]

Hi All,

I have a query that I was hoping someone might be able to clarify - something that has been eating away at the back of my mind. It is slightly OT but this seems the best place for it. Also before I begin I would like to qualify that I am a rabid "fanboi" (love that term), have paid by BT and have faith in the delivery (bully for me but that is not my point in this question - please bare with me).

I am also not an accountant, just work with 'em, so I am hoping I am well off the mark - THIS IS JUST SUPPOSITION ON MY PART, BASED ON LIMITED EXPERIENCE.

So in the organstions I have worked in, let's say we win a major consultancy project, for the sake of ease £100k covering 100 days of consultancy to be delivered over 12 months. Accounting laws state that an organisation cannot recognise that revenue up front or on their balance sheet. It has to be held in an account designated for that purpose and "called off" as the product/service is delivered (in this case it would be £1,000 per day of consultancy delivered). From what I understand, this is what got a few companies into trouble a while back - recognising future revenues to distort their balance sheet which ended up in a distorted stock market price, decieving investors and ultimately resulting in fraud and prison sentences for those involved.

Now those were PLCs and I'm not sure if the rules are the same but from what I believe this COULD imply, the Pandora pre-order money should have been held in account and called off as Pandora's were delivered or at least sent. I was thinking about the Wiz here and how that fits and I'm not sure, I think you could strongly argue the product is more finished at this stage than Pandora (unfortunately but there it is) and it is my understanding they stopped pre-orders and they have re-opened recently so maybe they are within the acceptable window?

It might explain why Amazon and Game and all those guys operate in the same way (you pre-order using your debit/credit card but they only take the cash when they send) they can probably operate with the systems to do this easily rather than take the money up front and call it off.

But it also could explain the bank problems - "Ok OpenPandora guys you have this big pile of pre-order cash but we can't let you use/recognise it until you deliver product." In this case I guess they would take the revenue per batch of 400 (assuming the reported batch size is correct) - should they actually be using this cash to buy the parts as a ltd company?

I guess my point is are the guys doing this right and I hope I am wrong, as I said I'm a rabid fanboi and only put this out of concern about how the project is being funded right now. Personally it makes no odds to me as to whether they use pre-order cash, a loan, chocolate gold coins or iou's but the last thing we want is this thing folding because of financial fraud or whatever because of an oversight.

I hope that doesn't wind anyone up - its certainly not the intent but I had to ask and like I say I'm hoping the same rules do not apply to a ltd but I honestly don't know and if someone could answer, I'd be grateful.

Thanks,

AB

 

[calzone]

Hi All,

I have a query that I was hoping someone might be able to clarify - something that has been eating away at the back of my mind. It is slightly OT but this seems the best place for it. Also before I begin I would like to qualify that I am a rabid "fanboi" (love that term), have paid by BT and have faith in the delivery (bully for me but that is not my point in this question - please bare with me).

I am also not an accountant, just work with 'em, so I am hoping I am well off the mark - THIS IS JUST SUPPOSITION ON MY PART, BASED ON LIMITED EXPERIENCE.

So in the organstions I have worked in, let's say we win a major consultancy project, for the sake of ease £100k covering 100 days of consultancy to be delivered over 12 months. Accounting laws state that an organisation cannot recognise that revenue up front or on their balance sheet. It has to be held in an account designated for that purpose and "called off" as the product/service is delivered (in this case it would be £1,000 per day of consultancy delivered). From what I understand, this is what got a few companies into trouble a while back - recognising future revenues to distort their balance sheet which ended up in a distorted stock market price, decieving investors and ultimately resulting in fraud and prison sentences for those involved.

Now those were PLCs and I'm not sure if the rules are the same but from what I believe this COULD imply, the Pandora pre-order money should have been held in account and called off as Pandora's were delivered or at least sent. I was thinking about the Wiz here and how that fits and I'm not sure, I think you could strongly argue the product is more finished at this stage than Pandora (unfortunately but there it is) and it is my understanding they stopped pre-orders and they have re-opened recently so maybe they are within the acceptable window?

It might explain why Amazon and Game and all those guys operate in the same way (you pre-order using your debit/credit card but they only take the cash when they send) they can probably operate with the systems to do this easily rather than take the money up front and call it off.

But it also could explain the bank problems - "Ok OpenPandora guys you have this big pile of pre-order cash but we can't let you use/recognise it until you deliver product." In this case I guess they would take the revenue per batch of 400 (assuming the reported batch size is correct) - should they actually be using this cash to buy the parts as a ltd company?

I guess my point is are the guys doing this right and I hope I am wrong, as I said I'm a rabid fanboi and only put this out of concern about how the project is being funded right now. Personally it makes no odds to me as to whether they use pre-order cash, a loan, chocolate gold coins or iou's but the last thing we want is this thing folding because of financial fraud or whatever because of an oversight.

I hope that doesn't wind anyone up - its certainly not the intent but I had to ask and like I say I'm hoping the same rules do not apply to a ltd but I honestly don't know and if someone could answer, I'd be grateful.

Thanks,

AB

A very well put comment and one that deserves NOT to be ignored by the OpenPandora Team!

Please can we press OpenPandora on this and have some reassurances that OP are doing things 100% correctly and that NONE of the monies 'invested' by the preorder folk at risk?

I genuinely worry that the naivety shown after they tried to take in £800,000 worth of cash during the first pre-order debacle does show a rather scary lack of judgement or inexperience.

'Pandorasloveflaps' comments do worry me, and it does seem a legitimate worry that the whole project could get screwed because of complex legalities that they haven't even thought out!


Surely worthy of an OFFICIAL reassurance comment Craig?!

 

[darkblu]

But it also could explain the bank problems - "Ok OpenPandora guys you have this big pile of pre-order cash but we can't let you use/recognise it until you deliver product." In this case I guess they would take the revenue per batch of 400 (assuming the reported batch size is correct) - should they actually be using this cash to buy the parts as a ltd company?

you missed the part where the sub-batches were introduces as a result of the financing hurdles. apparently the original intent was different. and apparently, craig did not expect the preorder money to be looked upon the way it was by the bank, otherwise he'd have done differently.

i'm sure his hindsight on the subject is even better than that of most of us here on these boards.

@calzone: didn't you leave already?

 

[calzone]

@calzone: didn't you leave already?

I did, but although Craig declined to comment on most of the concerns of his customers over the past few days, he did post a teaser about something exciting to come LOL

 

[tsh]

So when does bank-transfer only ordering open for those of us who were too slow to order last year, but have a UK bank account with sufficient funds to place an order today?

 

[danjh0]

Exciting news eh?

Maybe it's a picture of one of the keyboard 'keys'?

 

[airbeckley]

But it also could explain the bank problems - "Ok OpenPandora guys you have this big pile of pre-order cash but we can't let you use/recognise it until you deliver product." In this case I guess they would take the revenue per batch of 400 (assuming the reported batch size is correct) - should they actually be using this cash to buy the parts as a ltd company?

you missed the part where the sub-batches were introduces as a result of the financing hurdles. apparently the original intent was different. and apparently, craig did not expect the preorder money to be looked upon the way it was by the bank, otherwise he'd have done differently.

i'm sure his hindsight on the subject is even better than that of most of us here on these boards.

@calzone: didn't you leave already?


That's very true...but also following this line of thinking, doing batches of 400 means (if what I say actually applies here) they would recogise that revenue quicker so let's say these rules do apply, then splitting down to the smaller batches would mean they get their hands on that revenue faster rather than producing them all and having to wait until production/delivery of the entire batch - which could take a while and could be fatal if you need money for parts.

I actually hate myself for writing this - honestly. I've stayed well away from this argument as I've decided what I will do regarding my pre-order and have done it and have nothing constructive to add as both "sides" have legitimate points- I'm actually hoping someone will weigh in and say "Bollocks you twat, you are completely off the mark and here's why!"

 

[RajTakhar]

So when does bank-transfer only ordering open for those of us who were too slow to order last year, but have a UK bank account with sufficient funds to place an order today?

either send Craig a Personal message or email the sales team - the logic being that there are still some Pandoras left (as suggested 200-300 spare pre-xmas) or that some more people have pulled out from first batch

 

[Phawx]

The way Amazon does pre-orders is they charge you when the item ships. There are two problems with this.

1.) You have to be a financial institution to *hold* CC info and wait to charge it later.

2.) OpenPandora Needed the money *before* they made the Pandora's. They were using our money to finance the cost of the 4000 units.

So that's two ways to answer why it wouldn't help at all for OP Ltd to just *hold* the CC info. 1: They can't and 2: They needed the money before shipping the product

 

[tsh]

So in the organstions I have worked in, let's say we win a major consultancy project, for the sake of ease £100k covering 100 days of consultancy to be delivered over 12 months. Accounting laws state that an organisation cannot recognise that revenue up front or on their balance sheet. It has to be held in an account designated for that purpose and "called off" as the product/service is delivered (in this case it would be £1,000 per day of consultancy delivered). From what I understand, this is what got a few companies into trouble a while back - recognising future revenues to distort their balance sheet which ended up in a distorted stock market price, decieving investors and ultimately resulting in fraud and prison sentences for those involved.

Way off the mark... Balance sheet accounting of revenue is purely for the purpose of financial reporting to investors wanting to know if a company is good to invest in. It has very little to do with cashflow, where the regulators have no interest in knowing if you are able to write a contract that requires (e.g.) 100% payment up-front for a 5 year project, or an acceptance period of 6 months with final 30% only payable after acceptance.
Some businesses, like a solicitor handling house purchases, are required to operate a client account to isolate their company financial situation from that of their clients, but that's not the situation here. I believe that in OPs case, they are legaly free to spend any cash they can find as they wish - the commitment to deliver product being their only obligation.

 

[airbeckley]

So in the organstions I have worked in, let's say we win a major consultancy project, for the sake of ease £100k covering 100 days of consultancy to be delivered over 12 months. Accounting laws state that an organisation cannot recognise that revenue up front or on their balance sheet. It has to be held in an account designated for that purpose and "called off" as the product/service is delivered (in this case it would be £1,000 per day of consultancy delivered). From what I understand, this is what got a few companies into trouble a while back - recognising future revenues to distort their balance sheet which ended up in a distorted stock market price, decieving investors and ultimately resulting in fraud and prison sentences for those involved.

Way off the mark... Balance sheet accounting of revenue is purely for the purpose of financial reporting to investors wanting to know if a company is good to invest in. It has very little to do with cashflow, where the regulators have no interest in knowing if you are able to write a contract that requires (e.g.) 100% payment up-front for a 5 year project, or an acceptance period of 6 months with final 30% only payable after acceptance.
Some businesses, like a solicitor handling house purchases, are required to operate a client account to isolate their company financial situation from that of their clients, but that's not the situation here. I believe that in OPs case, they are legaly free to spend any cash they can find as they wish - the commitment to deliver product being their only obligation.



Sir thank you very much for that, that's exactly what I was hoping for!

I can crawl back into my hole now drooling and anticipating release!

Thanks again.

 

[Hazelhurst]

Ok, I have been waiting to re-order with a credit card. Since it doesn't look like this will be an option, what is the process for doing a bank transfer? Is there a thread which explains exactly how we re-order using a bank transfer?

Thanks

 

[j.pickens]

Ok, I have been waiting to re-order with a credit card. Since it doesn't look like this will be an option, what is the process for doing a bank transfer? Is there a thread which explains exactly how we re-order using a bank transfer?

Thanks

Did you get a refund email from Open Pandora Ltd. when they refunded your CC payment?
That email contained all the wire transfer info. you need.
I printed it out and went to the bank.
$30 and 5 min later, it was done.
I paid the exact amount I was refunded.
Let us know if you don't have the email, there are links to it here somewhere, but you will need your original order number for them to refer to.

 

[a.tom]

QUOTE
Once your refund is complete and back in your account you can either make an online
bank transfer to:

OpenPandora Ltd.
Sort Code: 20 23 81
Acc. No. 83525767

bic/swift is BARCGB22

IBAN IS GB33BARC20238183525767

Bank address is:
Barclays Bank
9 STATION ROAD
ASHINGTON
NORTHUMBERLAND
NE63 9XB
UK

It is also possible to transfer your order to GP2X shop in Germany if it is easier for you.
...
If you have any questions you can reply to this email or phone us on +44 191 0191 243 2253.

 

[Chip]

Guess I'm still wondering why the GBAX affiliation wasn't considered, or if it was, why it wasn't a viable option? Heck it took them (GBAX) 22 days to get my GP2X F200 to me when that was launched and they charged my credit card on the day of order !!! (ie a definite PRE-order!)

It is wrong to say the GBAX affiliation wasn't considered. The credit card payments did go to GBAX, not Open Pandora.

The situtation is clear: Craig does not want credit card payments. Claiming he can't accept them (while accepting them in his other hat) is a lie.
What a complete load of bollocks. The ordering pages were hosted on the GBAX server, but the actual processing was done by a different bank under a different account. This rather obvious option was investigated right at the beginning. When HSBC went daffy, we asked the CC merchant that handles GBAX if we could use that instead. When the situation was explained, they said no. An increase in volume of that magnitude would cause the account to be locked for investigation, and we would have had to refund the orders again.

No matter how much you want there to be some sort of absurd conspiracy, there isn't one.