SoC: Back and forth!

[Granitehead]

As this thread is full of spam and it's not exactly easy to see what has been said about what, I made a more or less empty wiki page with a table: http://pandorawiki.org/Pyra_SoC

 

[Null]

Merry-go-round

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAcnDevkTnc

 

[Granitehead]

You know, this is exactly what I meant when I said that there is spam in this thread. Some people are just unable to discuss objectively, other people don't even try and do nothing but hinder the discussion.

This forum needs some real mods.

 

[EvilDragon]

Even though the kernel part of the graphics driver is open source, the PowerVR driver still enforced the use of soft float in the userland.

The OMAP3 SGX has both softfloat and hardfloat binaries available at the TI site.

Haven't checked for the OMAP5, but I know it has hardfloat (don't know if there's need for the softfloat anymore).

As soon as you try to use other operating systems, especially bleeding-edge ones, you can easily get into trouble with older kernels because they simply do not support certain features required by the userland/init system/whatever.

But then you need to port the kernel anyway.

The Pyra will never have a normal generic kernel, as we need LED, etc. support as well.

Using a SoC with good mainline support to begin with, could probably make the kernel development part easier.

OMAP5 support is in mainline as well.

Additionally when carefully designing the hardware, one could avoid the need to develop additional kernel drivers at least for some parts entirely, e.g. using USB HID for the input devices instead of attaching them via GPIO, SPI or I²C. If I remember correctly, especially the way the Pandora's keyboard was implemented was problematic in such a way that the hack needed to properly support it (I think it was the way the FN button functions were read) in the kernel was unacceptable for the kernel developers so there was no way of getting it mainlined (correct me if I'm wrong here).

USB HID is using more power, AFAIK, and you don't have unlimited USB ports available unless you include more hubs (needing more power as well).

We are using a normal keyboard driver now (no Fn key anymore) to fix that, but all that doesn't have anything to do with the SoC being Intel / OMAP5 / Snapdragon.

In fact, Intel supports one less SD card slot, so we'd need to find a different solution here.

It won't be of much help using an SoC that uses less power and then designing the components around them that increase the power usage again.

That's why I mentioned a long time ago we need to check all the Pros and Cons here.

Simply because it's available and has all different kinds of driver support available doesn't mean it fits our purpose better than others.

As gta04 mentioned in this thread as well:

We need a development kit of the Intel chip. A REAL development kit, not just a system using it.

We haven't found one, and no one posted a link when gta04 asked here.

If we can't get one, then Intel is out of the question right now anyways (it's available for both OMAP5 and Snapdragon).

 

[Linux-SWAT]

3.2 is not old as it is LTS.

LTS does not make it less old. It does not get any new features. Also LTS support ends eventually.

Well actually notaz backported features like huge tlb, if i'm right.

Newer kernels also have EOL...

About the marketing, just look at the raspberry pi. No need to put stupid stickers like "intel inside" to be a huge success.

All we need is some articles on Slashdot-like sites.

 

[Natsu]

Starting basicly from zero is dangerous (hello Wii U! )

:huh: Except the fact that it didn't start at zero. 

As this thread is full of spam and it's not exactly easy to see what has been said about what, I made a more or less empty wiki page with a table: http://pandorawiki.org/Pyra_SoC

I'm pretty sure the 805 is the fastest and 800 is still faster than the z3770.

 

[Askarus]

As this thread is full of spam and it's not exactly easy to see what has been said about what, I made a more or less empty wiki page with a table: http://pandorawiki.org/Pyra_SoC

I'm pretty sure the 805 is the fastest and 800 is still faster than the z3770.

Right.

On the Wiki page is wrong information.

Also the first ones who did spam here were the x86 shouters.

ARM was decided long ago and then some guys started the x86 span again (and unfortunately still do).

 

[Granitehead]

As this thread is full of spam and it's not exactly easy to see what has been said about what, I made a more or less empty wiki page with a table: http://pandorawiki.org/Pyra_SoC

I'm pretty sure the 805 is the fastest and 800 is still faster than the z3770.

 Right.

On the Wiki page is wrong information.

Also the first ones who did spam here were the x86 shouters.

ARM was decided long ago and then some guys started the x86 span again (and unfortunately still do).

No, the spammers are all the non-constructive ones. There are non-constructive ones on all sides.And I'm pretty sure the z3770 is faster than the 805. Remember clock speed doesn't matter that much. Maybe change fast to powerful on the wiki page.

That page was only meant to get other people to contribute anyway. Feel free to edit it.

 

[wej]

The OMAP3 SGX has both softfloat and hardfloat binaries available at the TI site.

Why is it that the Pandora userland is using softfloat then?

The Pyra will never have a normal generic kernel, as we need LED, etc. support as well.

That's sad to hear. It could very well have that. Usually there are device specific configurations in the kernel where this stuff (LEDs and other stuff connected to GPIOs, etc.) is configured. Actually, this part of the kernel is switching over to FDT (flattened device tree), but what it does stays basically the same: For a certain SoC you can have various device configurations for the various devices using the given SoC. All that can very well be mainlined.

USB HID is using more power, AFAIK, and you don't have unlimited USB ports available unless you include more hubs (needing more power as well). We are using a normal keyboard driver now (no Fn key anymore) to fix that, but all that doesn't have anything to do with the SoC being Intel / OMAP5 / Snapdragon.

You can implement USB HID easily on small microcontrollers drawing only a few µA of power. That Intel SoC comes with an internal hub with four ports (plus the OTG port), I would have thought that that might be enough. If you do something else that does not need extra kernel code, that's of course fine as well. It was just meant as a suggestion. Do whatever works best for you. I know it is not specific to the SoC used.

OMAP5 support is in mainline as well.

Ok, then I must have been blind or something (I have checked in 3.13 and couldn't find anything), but if you say full support is in mainline kernel, I believe you.

That's why I mentioned a long time ago we need to check all the Pros and Cons here. Simply because it's available and has all different kinds of driver support available doesn't mean it fits our purpose better than others.

I agree, you should do that. Just consider all the important things mentioned and make your decision. It is up to you, eventually.

 

[WizardStan]

Why is it that the Pandora userland is using softfloat then?

Because 5 years ago that's how it was done, it's only been recently that armhf became mainstream.

 

[Askarus]

As this thread is full of spam and it's not exactly easy to see what has been said about what, I made a more or less empty wiki page with a table: http://pandorawiki.org/Pyra_SoC

I'm pretty sure the 805 is the fastest and 800 is still faster than the z3770.

 
Right.


On the Wiki page is wrong information.


Also the first ones who did spam here were the x86 shouters.


ARM was decided long ago and then some guys started the x86 span again (and unfortunately still do).

No, the spammers are all the non-constructive ones. There are non-constructive ones on all sides.
And I'm pretty sure the z3770 is faster than the 805. Remember clock speed doesn't matter that much. Maybe change fast to powerful on the wiki page.


That page was only meant to get other people to contribute anyway. Feel free to edit it.

Well, I said lots of constructive stuff here.

Also why are you sure that z3770 is faster that Snapdragon 805?

Here is some benchmarking that show that Snapdragon 800 can compete with z3770.

As 805 is said to be more power efficient it might be even better.

 

[Granitehead]

As this thread is full of spam and it's not exactly easy to see what has been said about what, I made a more or less empty wiki page with a table: http://pandorawiki.org/Pyra_SoC

I'm pretty sure the 805 is the fastest and 800 is still faster than the z3770.

 Right.

On the Wiki page is wrong information.

Also the first ones who did spam here were the x86 shouters.

ARM was decided long ago and then some guys started the x86 span again (and unfortunately still do).

No, the spammers are all the non-constructive ones. There are non-constructive ones on all sides.And I'm pretty sure the z3770 is faster than the 805. Remember clock speed doesn't matter that much. Maybe change fast to powerful on the wiki page.

That page was only meant to get other people to contribute anyway. Feel free to edit it.

 Well, I said lots of constructive stuff here.

Also why are you sure that z3770 is faster that Snapdragon 805?

Here is some benchmarking that show that Snapdragon 800 can compete with z3770.

As 805 is said to be more power efficient it might be even better.

I didn't accuse you of being unconstructive. As far as I can tell you were never actively unconstructive although not all your posts were really constructive.
Okay, so add that benchmark as a source to the wiki and change the ranglist. *sigh*

As I said, it's a wiki so everyone can edit it.

 

[Null]

You know, this is exactly what I meant when I said that there is spam in this thread. Some people are just unable to discuss objectively, other people don't even try and do nothing but hinder the discussion.


This forum needs some real mods.

This thread is a fanboy thread.


This thread has always been filled with spam and it always will be.


This thread has made me start killing again.


This thread needs to take a long walk off a short cliff.

 

[ghostpatch]

I'm pretty sure the 805 is the fastest and 800 is still faster than the z3770.

[QUOTE='Askarus]
Right

[/QUOTE]your gut feeling? or is the marketing machinery talking? I do not claim the z3770 is faster. Compering them in terms of processing power is very difficult! One thing is sure, all three of them are very fast!

[QUOTE='Askarus]
Also the first ones who did spam here were the x86 shouters.

ARM was decided long ago and then some guys started the x86 span again (and unfortunately still do).

[/QUOTE]Now are we back at kindergarten pointing fingers at each other? I'm a little offended. I'm trying to have a serious discussion. Many others from both sides do as well. Posts like "Merry-go-round" or some "funny" pictures are not helping!!!

 

[TrashyMG]

Why is it that the Pandora userland is using softfloat then?

If I recall some hearsay on IRC only the SGX drivers available to the 1Ghz (DM3730) had a hardfloat library, this would break compatibility between 1Ghz and the CC/Rebirth units. and If they could work on all units it would break compatibility of all the older PNDs.

 

[EvilDragon]

The OMAP3 SGX has both softfloat and hardfloat binaries available at the TI site.

Why is it that the Pandora userland is using softfloat then?

Because all PNDs and the full OS is softfloat...?

Want to create an OS where all the software we have doesn't work anymore...?

The Pyra will never have a normal generic kernel, as we need LED, etc. support as well.

That's sad to hear. It could very well have that. Usually there are device specific configurations in the kernel where this stuff (LEDs and other stuff connected to GPIOs, etc.) is configured. Actually, this part of the kernel is switching over to FDT (flattened device tree), but what it does stays basically the same: For a certain SoC you can have various device configurations for the various devices using the given SoC. All that can very well be mainlined.

Sure, we're trying to stay as mainline as possible, but I'm not sure it will work 100% with all components.

First thing we need to ensure is that the components all have drivers available and will use as little power and be as cost effective as possible.

If we need to start adding USB hubs to keep one component compatible with mainline, then we won't do that, as it adds power usage and costs.

I don't know much about kernel development and PCB designs, but I know gta04 knows what he's doing and what our ideas are. 

OMAP5 support is in mainline as well.

Ok, then I must have been blind or something (I have checked in 3.13 and couldn't find anything), but if you say full support is in mainline kernel, I believe you.

AFAIK (as said, I'm not too deep into kernel development), the config is omap2plus_defconfig (not OMAP5).

Here is a thread where people have been booting mainline on the OMAP5-EVM:

http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-omap/msg97922.html

Here is our development kernel git, BTW:

http://git.openpandora.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=pyra-kernel.git;a=summary 

 

[Askarus]

I'm pretty sure the 805 is the fastest and 800 is still faster than the z3770.

[QUOTE='Askarus]
Right

your gut feeling? or is the marketing machinery talking? I do not claim the z3770 is faster. Compering them in terms of processing power is very difficult! One thing is sure, all three of them are very fast!


[/QUOTE]
I had that benchmark where Snapdragon and Bay Trail were at the same level (not Bay Trail leading)

[QUOTE='Askarus]
Also the first ones who did spam here were the x86 shouters.

ARM was decided long ago and then some guys started the x86 span again (and unfortunately still do).

Now are we back at kindergarten pointing fingers at each other? I'm a little offended. I'm trying to have a serious discussion. Many others from both sides do as well. Posts like "Merry-go-round" or some "funny" pictures are not helping!!!


[/QUOTE]
I know.

Wasn't the best thing I could say (also @ t4b).

Will try to be more friendly now .

 

[EvilDragon]

I'm pretty sure the 805 is the fastest and 800 is still faster than the z3770.

[QUOTE='Askarus]Right

your gut feeling? or is the marketing machinery talking? I do not claim the z3770 is faster. Compering them in terms of processing power is very difficult! One thing is sure, all three of them are very fast!
[/QUOTE]You didn't but T4b above claimed he's sure the z3770 would be faster than the 805.

I also remember reading somewhere that the z3770 is somewhere around the 800 (as much as it can be compared), so the 805 will probably be faster (until Intel releases the next SoC and so on...)

 

[wej]

Why is it that the Pandora userland is using softfloat then?

If I recall some hearsay on IRC only the SGX drivers available to the 1Ghz (DM3730) had a hardfloat library, this would break compatibility between 1Ghz and the CC/Rebirth units. and If they could work on all units it would break compatibility of all the older PNDs.

This matches with what I have been remembering about my tries of getting the driver to work on the various userlands I have been playing with on the Pandora.

Of course I could have completely missed that there was a hardfloat driver for the old OMAP3, but that would have been a little strange.

About this spam accusation: I have always tried to be constructive here. Reading from a member of the Pyra team (Askarus), that this is considered spam, isn't very nice. I think the discussion about the various SoC (being it ARM or x86 or whatever) fits very well with the thread's topic.

Because all PNDs and the full OS is softfloat...?
Want to create an OS where all the software we have doesn't work anymore...?

Seriously? Of course the PNDs are all compiled for softfloat, BECAUSE the whole OS is compiled for softfloat. It not the other way around.

I did not suggest to switch to hardfloat NOW, but was asking why softfloat has been chosen in the first place. "Everyone did it back then"  (as WizardStan suggested) is hardly a good reason to do so, as you've been compiling the OS yourself anyways and the Pandora's CPU always had hardware floating point support. Even five years ago it was possible to compile for hardfloat.

 

[EvilDragon]

Why is it that the Pandora userland is using softfloat then?

If I recall some hearsay on IRC only the SGX drivers available to the 1Ghz (DM3730) had a hardfloat library, this would break compatibility between 1Ghz and the CC/Rebirth units. and If they could work on all units it would break compatibility of all the older PNDs.

This matches with what I have been remembering about my tries of getting the driver to work on the various userlands I have been playing with on the Pandora.Of course I could have completely missed that there was a hardfloat driver for the old OMAP3, but that would have been a little strange.

Oh, right, forgot about that as well!

The Classic Pandoras have a pre-release OMAP3 on the PCB, which is not supported by the recent drivers.

The recent ones are available for hardfloat as well... but not the old ones.

Well, we won't be using and pre-release SoC anymore, that's for sure