Short But Good!

[WizardStan]

I've purchased all sorts of devices that werent FCC certified from over seas and never had any of them held up in transit. MP3players, phones, game devices even the original GP32 doesn seem to be FCC certified... or even CE certified either for that matter. So for the most part it seems that they really DONT need FCC testing unless they have sales distribution in the US.

Being right and not being caught are two totally different things.

 

[spaceballs3000]

This is interesting:

http://usaimporthelp...electronicgames

Doesn't apply to Pandora of course... unless you plugged up the power sockets. h34r:

Also found this book, some might find it interesting: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=SVoVKSXBTzwC&dq=USA+import+FCC&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Good find, if you digg deeper into the link you provided you can find the Exclusions list at http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...&view=text&node=47:1.0.1.1.3.10.225.2&idno=47

§ 2.1202 Exclusions.

The provisions of this section do not apply to the importation of:

A. Cameras, musical greeting cards, quartz watches and clocks, modules of quartz watches and clocks, hand-held calculators and electronic games, and other similar unintentional radiators which utilize low level battery power and which do not contain provisions for operation while connected to AC power lines.

B. Unintentional radiators which are exempted from technical standards and other requirements as specified in §15.103 of this chapter.

C. Radio frequency devices manufactured and assembled in the U.S.A. that meet applicable FCC technical standards and which have not been modified or received further assembly.

D. Radio frequency devices previously properly imported that have been exported for repair and re-imported for use.

E. Subassemblies, parts, or components of radio frequency devices unless they constitute an essentially completed device which requires only the addition of cabinets, knobs, speakers, or similar minor attachments before marketing or use. Form 740 information will be required to be submitted for computer circuit boards that are actually peripheral devices as defined in §15.3(r) of this chapter and all devices that, by themselves, are subject to FCC marketing rules. ...

It does list "electronic games" in section "A" in the exclusion list, so section "A" is covered.

Problem is now selection "C", regarding the WiFi part (and this area I just recently dealt with in my project.) The Wifi can come in two flavors, one way is FCC pre-certified wifi module, or have the Wifi on the main PCB board, and then FCC certified the whole unit.

Now looking at the Pandora PCB I see it's an WIFI Module WG7210. Looking at the features of the module at from the company --> http://www.smsdatasystems.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=30&lang=en it doesn't seem to list this module as a as having be FCC module certified. BTW a company will very likely list it as "FCC certified module" as a feature as it's a good selling point for the module.

So due to selection "C" issue (unless this module is a FCC certified,) the Pandora will be is subject to FCC form 740. i.e. your back to the FCC problem.

 

[fiori_musicali]

I see it's an WIFI Module WG7210. Looking at the features of the module at from the company --> http://www.smsdatasystems.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=30&lang=en it doesn't seem to list this module as a as having be FCC module certified. [...] So due to selection "C" issue (unless this module is a FCC certified,) the Pandora will be is subject to FCC form 740. i.e. your back to the FCC problem.

Do the people at the customs really care that much? I bet they have to rely on gut feeling on many occasions, unless they have unlimited resources. I'd think they have better ways to invest their time than looking up the FCC status of every specific module on a quite ordinary looking device that only exists in the quantity of 4000 units worldwide. Don't you think the more realistic scenario is "Oh, what's this... Some geek device, doesn't look dangerous. How much did you pay for it? Now pay x% VAT and import taxes, thank you."

 

[spaceballs3000]

... I bet they have to rely on gut feeling on many occasions ...

Yes your likely right, as they see the product (some fake) from Asia with fake FCC logo(s), and they assume it all good. The problem likely occurs when they dont see a FCC logo on a device, as I assume Pandora team/group will not be placing a fake FCC on the unit.

But who knows, since like someone earlier pointed out that (non Wifi/BT) handhold game units are exempt, maybe they will just think it's part of the same old batch and let it through.

 

[spaceballs3000]

Another interesting note, it's always cheaper to do both FCC, and CE testing at the same time, as many of the same tests cover both certifications (I've had multiple people at different certification companies tell me this.)

Pandora doing just CE, then later on FCC, is likely going to be more expensive in the end, are they short cash on hand?

 

[lulzfish]

I think when it said "handheld games" in Section A, it also said, "That do not operate with any connection to AC mains power." Of course, the Pandora CAN run from AC power since it has to re-charge. But I have no idea how to read that document, so I'm just pointing this out.

 

[elwing]

Another interesting note, it's always cheaper to do both FCC, and CE testing at the same time, as many of the same tests cover both certifications (I've had multiple people at different certification companies tell me this.)

Pandora doing just CE, then later on FCC, is likely going to be more expensive in the end, are they short cash on hand?

that is not the problem... the problem is that you can only make FCC test with a final release product while you can make CE with a prototype from what we have been told. waiting for a final product will cause more delay. (at least for the non US resident if that FCC really pose problem...)

 

[spaceballs3000]

...

I noticed that too, that part that says

... which do not contain provisions for operation while connected to AC power lines ...

So yes in your scenario, it really would be a deal breaker, i.e. have to submit for FCC. But I assume Pandora team/group could code in the firmware to force the machine into off when re-charging, thus not violating that rule.

 

[lulzfish]

They could, but it would be a silly thing to do, to cripple the Pandora that way just to get around a short testing period.

 

[spaceballs3000]

They could, but it would be a silly thing to do, to cripple the Pandora that way just to get around a short testing period.

Agreed it would be.

In long term it would be better off just to get it completely FCC certified, or use a pre-certified module.

 

[Monk]

Humm, that's why I hate giving guesstimations

Who said October? I just said, my birthday wish is that EVERYTHING (including shipping to you) will be done then

...
So it can be anything between early September and mid October.

There's a degree of cynicism running through the community in recent months, especially with regard to date guestimates. Your guestimates are more encouraging because they come backed with supporting data - you tend to say (to paraphrase) "somewhere around this date BECAUSE of X, Y, and Z". Which IMHO is a lot better than "I'm pretty confident about this date".

Look at it this way. In October OpenPandora were saying "Novemeber, maybe December". Every single projection since then (including that guestimate) has been overly optimistic. This will tend to breed a tendency to imagine that any given estimation is, as we've been trained to expect over the last 3/4 of a year, optimistic and the project will actually take longer. The "October" estimate seems to have been made using data as provided by OpenPandora with an eye to not being excessively optimistic.

Take, for example, the fact that an August/October delivery date for a US customer relies on nothing having gone particularly wrong for OpenPandora from now on. I don't thinl we've seen a single month go by without SOMETHING going seriously wrong, have we? Or at least long enough to cause a multi-week delay. Given the experience with OP to date, it's fairly easy to predict that SOMETHING will go wrong. Even if it's not easy to predict what, exactly, will go wrong. If I had been laying bets each month since original preorder that "something will go wrong, it won't be delivered within 2 months" then I would today be sitting on a pile of cash gazing down on the rest of the community. We are creatures of habit, and it's easy to fall into habitual behaviour and keep doing the same thing because one hasn't been proven wrong yet (note - the banks did this too, although in the end they were finally proven wrong).

Specifically what could go wrong? Well there's lots of room to imagine problems with the case/mould and/or the plastics company, problems with the Pandora failing CE or FCC testing, problems with the Pandora actually leagally needing FCC testing after all, as it turns out, or problems with OpenPandora getting into trouble because they didn't FCC test the unit and the US officials take umbrage to this.

But the point isn't EXACTLY what will go wrong and cause delays, the point is that users are forecasting "unspecified issues will cause delays" because, for the last 3/4 of a year, they always have done. We've been trained by experience, like Pavlov's dogs, to extend any forecast in order to minimise dissapointment

 

[MWeston]

Hey, why should we bother with FCC or CE testing or even SD membership? GPH didn't do any of that and they are selling the Wiz just fine. /sarcasm


But seriously, any North American distributor of the Wiz, Dingoo or any other China MP4 player is currently facing the possibility of fines by selling it right now. Nobody seems to care about that but every month someone is breathing down our necks about Pandora.

We're planning on doing things the right way which means a lot more cost to us so why not let us do it in our own time and only do it once?

By the way, the Wifi/BT module does have FCC certification already. I have a giant document from FCC testing that should really help out the process. The module still needs certification within the Pandora to guarantee we are operating it within the required parameters, but it should go a long way towards making testing simple.

 

[EvilDragon]

By the way, the Wifi/BT module does have FCC certification already. I have a giant document from FCC testing that should really help out the process. The module still needs certification within the Pandora to guarantee we are operating it within the required parameters, but it should go a long way towards making testing simple.

Yep, that was really important. It definately would have been a MAJOR risk - imagine the module wouldn't have CE and FCC and it would fail...?
The whole Pandora would need a new module and a new redesign... we would've never taken that risk...

 

[fusion_power]

By the way, the Wifi/BT module does have FCC certification already. I have a giant document from FCC testing that should really help out the process. The module still needs certification within the Pandora to guarantee we are operating it within the required parameters, but it should go a long way towards making testing simple.

A short but really interesting Message. If at least the critical WIFI part already has the seals and was tested, We now can sleep at least a little bit better. As long as the Combination of the WIFI Chip and the Pandora PCB don't produce a powerful Airplane-crashing Antenna, it should be not too hard to get the Pandora through the final FCC/CE Tests. .)

 

[spaceballs3000]

... Wiz, Dingoo or any other China MP4 player is currently facing the possibility of fines ...

Do these other units contain an 802.11 radio?
Also do any of these units have a real/fake FCC/CE logo(s) on them?

... the Wifi/BT module does have FCC certification already. ...

Strange I spent months looking for the cheapest FCC certificated module in our product, and we did come across this module at one time, I think I even emailed the company asking this. If my memory serves me right I saw no indication of it being already FCC module certified from the original manufacture. Did you buy this from a re-seller? If yes what is the resellers name? as they be the one to paid for the module FCC module certified, and I be interested in using it for future projects.

A very quick search of this module, suggests it's not FCC module certified from the manufacture.
http://www.jorjin.com/Product_SiPmodule_WG7210.htm
http://www.smsdatasystems.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=30&lang=en

 

[MWeston]

... Wiz, Dingoo or any other China MP4 player is currently facing the possibility of fines ...

Do these other units contain an 802.11 radio?

No, you don't need to have a radio to require testing. The simple fact that processors run at high frequencies with harmonics that extend up into the gigahertz is enough.

Also do any of these units have a real/fake FCC/CE logo(s) on them?

Yes, they always do and they are always wrong. There are qualifications for size, shape, location, information displayed and registration numbers that are always wrong or missing on these things.

... the Wifi/BT module does have FCC certification already. ...

Strange I spent months looking for the cheapest FCC certificated module in our product, and we did come across this module at one time, I think I even emailed the company asking this. If my memory serves me right I saw no indication of it being already FCC module certified from the original manufacture. Did you buy this from a re-seller? If yes what is the resellers name? as they be the one to paid for the module FCC module certified, and I be interested in using it for future projects.

A very quick search of this module, suggests it's not FCC module certified from the manufacture.
http://www.jorjin.com/Product_SiPmodule_WG7210.htm
http://www.smsdatasystems.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=30&lang=en

I have a document dated the 18th of June, 2008 with FCC and CE test chamber results done separately. Perhaps there are different qualifications for different countries (the channels are different for sure). It's a protected document so I can't share it obviously, but I don't know what else to tell you. Seems like a lot of effort to fake out results if you ask me. It's a huge document and it looks like days worth of testing that would be great to not have to do over again. Most of their documentation isn't public and you have to be a customer to get anything out of them. I was introduced to them by another company to get my foot in the door with them to begin with. Who knows what would have happened otherwise.

 

[wardred]

MWeston, Evildragon,
I like the updates you both do. Sometimes you throw out a "release" date, but you generally give more detailed and meaningful status of the to do items, and giving rough estimates for how long those to do items will take. I think where you're seeing a lot of forum frustration stems from getting a date for everything being finished - i.e. July(or end of July as most of us probably assumed,) then having it slip so quickly to September or October. Especially when there was no stated reasoning behind the date, just a quick update from Craig that that could be the date. It gets everybody excited about actually seeing their Pandora in August, then it's a huge let down when we realize it won't materialize for at least 2 months(tm). (That, and it has been nearly a year since a lot of people paid.) Some of the latest delay was the parts getting held up in customs, which held up board manufacturing, and also held up fitting the case, but those types of excitement then let down rides are tough to take over the course of a year.

The guestimate dates are a tricky thing, even for the line item updates. Parts are being shipped from all over, both the individuals in the project and the manufacturing companies have things they're doing other than just the Pandora, shipping and customs, etc. I still haven't heard that somebody's received the first 105 unit run of the mass production board - or that it's done and being shipped to whoever's going to get them before sending however many off to the mold manufacturer so they can finish fitting the case. But a slip of a week or two for a line item is better than a slip of 2 months for the whole thing a mere week from hearing that date.

It was stated it was POSSIBLE the boards would be done this week assuming my memory is correct, so we have 1/2 the week left to go, and it was just a possibility, not a hard date.

I think the other thing that's frustrating is it looks like a lot of the software projects have slowed down. Pickle seems to be done with a lot of the initial work, if not fully finished, with most of his ports. A lot of the game projects seem to have stalled. So most of what we have to wait for are dates on things that are more in the manufacturer's hands at this point then yours. I'm hoping the excitement will pick up again once people actually have a Pandora in their hands.

I'd continue doing the line item updates and refrain from a "ship date" until you're awfully close to it - like somebody actually has a batch of fully assembled Pandoras and they're in the process of testing them - or is it just the boards that get burn in testing? - boxing them, and shipping them. The line item updates are more meaningful, and it's easier for us to "guess" how far out things will be then when we have a generic "it could be done as soon as July" update. Also, if one item slips, we can make a guess to how that'll affect the whole project and there's more understanding for what happened this way.


As frustrating as all this has been watching from the sidelines, I can't imagine how messed up it must be as one of the actual devs / owners of this project. I've put my money into it, and intend to keep it there, and look forward to getting the device in my hands.

Things really do seem close...
just 2 more months - :b
Cheers!

EDIT: Line breaks for paragraphs...

 

[Aimless_E]

Errm, nope, you won't see the "We're shipping" within this week

It's still gonna take a while until the moulding finishes (remember the 45 days I posted a while ago? ), then those cases needs to be shipped to Texas to be built and then shipped back to us to finally be shipped to your place

However, the case is still being checked and everything, and so far NO problems
It's looking good, folks

Even though I already know the answer.

Is there anyway I can just get my Pandora shipped to me from Texas (I live in Texas) I know there's packaging that needs to be done, but I wouldn't mind getting a nearly empty box if it saves time.

Just asking.