I think the OP shouldn't flame the Chinese like that in a improper way. They either have bad connections, no middleman in China or lack of negotiation skills considering the timespan to get things done.
Why is 99% of the casingproducts made in China? Negotiation is something that differs per country and take account with.
But also volume play a roll.
Well concidering the writingstyle in the official post... I hope no other future companies collaborating in this project is reading it.
If you're lucky... the Chinese casefactory is reading this (it's open to the public),they feel humiliated and delay it for a long period... omg
Personally, if the American PCB compamy that made the samples also had the production run made for you, the PCBs resulting should have matched the samples. They really should have. No question, no WiFi resistor "fix". IMHO.
Not true. Unless a pcb is specified with a controlled impedance layer, it's just a hope that each run of boards is the same. I've had RF prototype boards from the same manufacturer come back with different layer materials (and wildly different behaviour of my circuit.)
Personally, if someonme makes a sample of a thing for me then I expect the production run to match the sample. I'm not talking about circuit boards here, but everything - because that is the point of samples. I can conceed your point that OpenPandora didn't specify the resistance of "that track" and that manufacturers can have tolerances within which they work that can affect the output, but as a personal point of view if someone makes me a sample of something then I expectt he manufactuers results to match those samples to within MY qulaity limits.
That you have experience of manufacturers changing materials kinda backs my point to a degree - I would find that an intolerable change as it wouldn't match the sample that I had accepted.
Zotty said:
Granted it's all based on hearsay, but imho it's pretty fair to ask; wtf is wrong with these companies? I mean if you need the weight for shipping, then weigh it. It's so simple. And it's not like we are their first customers needing something shipped.
My god, how do these retards even stay in business?
We've had a number of rather excellent videos linked to on the subject, but to oversimpl;ify only slightly it goes something like this.
WESTERNER: Aha! I can get stuff made in the Far East at a knock-down price and sell it for a high price in the West! Even if I don't have any significant skills in the area! I might even be able to get the design work done for cheap in the East! Those stupid Far East workers and factories will charge me a pittance for doing all the work and I will reap all the profits of selling to my Western customers!
EASTERN FACTORY: Dumb Westerner, he thinks he will work us like slaves and take all the money himself? He can go on bottom of prioriry pile. He pays cash up front, we have no need to do better work or faster work, he can get the rubbish we give him when we feel like giving it to him. Come on lads, it's tea-break!
Of course, there are wrinkles and complexities beyond that - but I love the video where some idiot Englishman thinks the Eastern factory will design and make his scooters for him to flog for huge profit in the West, only to discover that they have been sending him design photos from a neighboring factory while they do no work at all for the money he sends them. The factory chief is well pleased with himself - they have made lots of money for no work, that is GOOD business. The fact that many Westerners are Rubes is not THEIR fault! As far as many of these cheap-as-chips Eastern companies are concerned, they do the minimum work for as much money as they can get. Sadly, that's the way Western businesses work as well - but Westerners are a lot closer and cannot blame language difficulties so easily.
Another way of looking at it is a very wise saying in the field of commerce - "you get what you pay for". The Chinese Factory that OpenPandora chose to use, and that (a?) team member/s have (reputedly?) used before, are the cheapest. OpenPandora went to them because they were cheap. They have received cheap service.
I've chased and chased those cases but the courier said the factory were unable to give weights or number of boxes last week.
Chasing that up with the factory just resulted in the usual apologies and more promises to sort it out.
Anyway, eventually Fatih spoke to someone higher up and they promised to get them all packaged and weighed correctly so the courier can collect them.
This just seems to be the 'way' with these Chinese companies, I've never had a good experience with one, it seems you have to go through this baptism of fire with them all. I just wish we could have found a company in the UK which we could afford to use. But alas it had to be China with our budget.
You have to understand they just lie and lie and lie to us. It may well be that the person telling the lies really believes them to be true because it is what he is told. Who knows. It's all smoke and mirrors constantly. This is just how they seem to do business.
Anyway the good news is that all the final case samples have been absolutely superb.
I'm also very glad these cases were the only thing done in China. The rumour that the PCBs were made in China isn't entirely true, the (American) PCB company had them made for us, and used a facility in Asia (which they may well own) for some of the work. We know no more about it than that. They were certainly populated and tested in Texas.
The decline of manufacturing in the west is all due to this smoke and mirrors Chinese crap. I bet most companies go though it, save very little money, but stick with it because they invested so much. It's one big long con by China.
If I can I'll move that case production to the west at the earliest possible opportunity because I'm not falling for it.
You are joking, right?
What the hell did they do all the Time, the Volcano errupted? SOOOOOOOOOO much time to pack everything and then instantly ship it when Sky is free.
And if you (or Fatih) have daily Contact to them, how was it possible not to "smell", that they not ready to ship? I thouhgt everyone just waits for UPS to pick up the (ready) Package.
Seriously, it seems not to be cheap to produce in China, Time is money and in the case of the Pandora, these Delays cost a fortune! Never forget: you don't make Money with the Pandora when you can't sell and especialy deliver the Units to the Customers. So I strongly recommend to kick the chinese Asses first and then move to Taiwan or some more trusty people.
It really hurts me when the announced dates are nothing but hot air and this again and again. I guess you don't have another choice, you have to go to China and talk a serious Word with these Factory guys.
Remember, we still need 9000 Cases from this Factory and when they handle things like they did in the Past (and I BET they will!!!) we never see these 9K Cases until the Year 2012.
ah, and never forget: Don't pay the ferryman
Don't even fix a price
Don't pay the ferryman
Until he gets you to the other side
Thanks for the update Craig. Very disappointing that _none_ of them have shipped -- same old case factory though. The quality is there now just when we're going to get all 4000 cases is anybody's guess.
We've had a number of rather excellent videos linked to on the subject, but to oversimpl;ify only slightly it goes something like this.
WESTERNER: Aha! I can get stuff made in the Far East at a knock-down price and sell it for a high price in the West! Even if I don't have any significant skills in the area! I might even be able to get the design work done for cheap in the East! Those stupid Far East workers and factories will charge me a pittance for doing all the work and I will reap all the profits of selling to my Western customers!
EASTERN FACTORY: Dumb Westerner, he thinks he will work us like slaves and take all the money himself? He can go on bottom of prioriry pile. He pays cash up front, we have no need to do better work or faster work, he can get the rubbish we give him when we feel like giving it to him. Come on lads, it's tea-break!
Of course, there are wrinkles and complexities beyond that - but I love the video where some idiot Englishman thinks the Eastern factory will design and make his scooters for him to flog for huge profit in the West, only to discover that they have been sending him design photos from a neighboring factory while they do no work at all for the money he sends them. The factory chief is well pleased with himself - they have made lots of money for no work, that is GOOD business. The fact that many Westerners are Rubes is not THEIR fault! As far as many of these cheap-as-chips Eastern companies are concerned, they do the minimum work for as much money as they can get. Sadly, that's the way Western businesses work as well - but Westerners are a lot closer and cannot blame language difficulties so easily.
Another way of looking at it is a very wise saying in the field of commerce - "you get what you pay for". The Chinese Factory that OpenPandora chose to use, and that (a?) team member/s have (reputedly?) used before, are the cheapest. OpenPandora went to them because they were cheap. They have received cheap service.
It saddens me, but you're probably right (although I would call it BAD business instead of good). East west, it doesn't matter. What I don't get is why. There's something called long-term customer relationship, which to me means that if you treat your customers right, they keep coming back spending money for the wonderful product and service you're selling. Being a customer myself most of the time all I can say is that it does work.
Over the years I've ignored companies that just didn't take me seriously as a customer (after falling in their el-cheapo trap first...) and went with companies that can actually deliver the goods. It goes back to the simplest of things such as stock inventory of online stores. The cheapest are usually the worst, e.g. they say it takes 3 days for a product to get in stock again, only to discover it took a month. Do the same thing at other stores where the product costs a few euros more and voila, your doorbell rings a week later. That's usually a company I'll be doing business with for years to come.
However, the above assumes you have a choice. If memory serves me right, OP has little or no choice because other (Chinese?) case manufactures didn't want to do less than 100 thousand cases.
We've had a number of rather excellent videos linked to on the subject, but to oversimpl;ify only slightly it goes something like this.
WESTERNER: Aha! I can get stuff made in the Far East at a knock-down price and sell it for a high price in the West! Even if I don't have any significant skills in the area! I might even be able to get the design work done for cheap in the East! Those stupid Far East workers and factories will charge me a pittance for doing all the work and I will reap all the profits of selling to my Western customers!
EASTERN FACTORY: Dumb Westerner, he thinks he will work us like slaves and take all the money himself? He can go on bottom of prioriry pile. He pays cash up front, we have no need to do better work or faster work, he can get the rubbish we give him when we feel like giving it to him. Come on lads, it's tea-break!
Of course, there are wrinkles and complexities beyond that - but I love the video where some idiot Englishman thinks the Eastern factory will design and make his scooters for him to flog for huge profit in the West, only to discover that they have been sending him design photos from a neighboring factory while they do no work at all for the money he sends them. The factory chief is well pleased with himself - they have made lots of money for no work, that is GOOD business. The fact that many Westerners are Rubes is not THEIR fault! As far as many of these cheap-as-chips Eastern companies are concerned, they do the minimum work for as much money as they can get. Sadly, that's the way Western businesses work as well - but Westerners are a lot closer and cannot blame language difficulties so easily.
Another way of looking at it is a very wise saying in the field of commerce - "you get what you pay for". The Chinese Factory that OpenPandora chose to use, and that (a?) team member/s have (reputedly?) used before, are the cheapest. OpenPandora went to them because they were cheap. They have received cheap service.
That about sums up the shitty way they do business. Dishonest and lazy.
It is why I won't ever use a Chinese company again (that and reading up on how they treat their workers).
Laws exist in the UK to stop that sort of behavior and to protect us.
Yeah I'm sure we will get those cases, they do exist as we have seen photos of hundreds of them, however for all the hassle I would have rather paid more in the UK over a 12 month contract.
I'll be proud to put 'Not made in China' on the Pandora, and to support local business - and the price of the Pandora won't change a great deal.
I read Craig's post three times before it was acknowledged in my brain ,why did OPT pay this pathetic company upfront months ago ? if OPT have already payed for all 4000 its time to retract ,atleast pay for the first 1000 cases and be very clear with the case company you are seriously not happy and no longer wish to continue business with them ,infact state that for only a small amount more you will be doing business with a fictitious company from scotland.Claw back what you can and move on ,easier said than done i know but please feel free to go mental at them as you rightly deserve to.
I would also agree that you would think being the case company you would really want to do business in the long term with projects such as the Pandora ,if business is good for OpenPandora then it would ultimately be very good for the case company as well ,mabe the case company are just no good at timelines or mabe they feel in a way responsable and want the case to look the best it possibly can and if that means delays on their part then they are willing to let that happen for the final design.In any case however it has been too long now ,i really doubt we will ever see a Pandora it's just getting to the point of silliness and i don't want to sound like i don't trust OPT or any other involved company in the making of the Pandora,but i really do not trust OPT or anyone else for that matter ,like in life i have very little trust in anyone i have my eyes open and i chase things ,i think OPT should do the same.
When it was posted that Fatih was actually going to China, finally, to see these production run cases, I was thrilled! It's like "finally, some work will get done."
Sadly, the factory sent the samples to MWeston and he agreed they were ok, so I think the "Fatih goes to China" adventure was called off. If he had been there to yell at them (via translator) for even one week, there is no doubt in my mind the first 1000 cases would be on their way by now.
Which leads us to ask why you went with a Chinese company in the first place? Luckily Monk is much better at finding quotes than me, and I'm sure he's already busy beavering away looking for the multiple times that you said using a Chinese company was your only option, and producing elsewhere would have resulted in a much higher individual unit cost. Which makes me wonder about a later quote in the above quoted post:
I'll be proud to put 'Not made in China' on the Pandora, and to support local business - and the price of the Pandora won't change a great deal.
All of a sudden you're claiming moral high ground. Poor innocent little Craig had no idea how the poor workers were being treated in Chinese factories. It came as such a shock to you when you finally did find out you were so shocked that you were left with no option but to find an alternative way of manufacturing the cases.
Oh what a great ambassador for human rights you are Craig. The world needs more people like you. Perhaps you should consider becoming the official face for Amnesty International.
Just in case you didn't get the sarcasm:
You are a hypocritical, lying schmuk who knew exactly what goes on in Chinese factories but picked one anyway purely on cost reasons. Now that you have been messed around by these people one too any times you are trying to gain brownie points with your supporters by all of a sudden claiming you can't condone the human rights infringements which may or may not be going on in the factory that you have chosen.
This might now be time to ask for a refund I feel. It was a great project in theory, but there just wasn't enough research done from the outset.
I am thinking about designing my own handheld console with better screen. It would be based on similar tech as Pandora/beagle board with aluminium used to construct a nice shiny case. A ripped out D-pad from a SNES controller or such would make the controls spot-on IMO.
I'm sorry to say it, but CRAP is CRAP no matter where or what form it takes. If I was in the teams position 2-3 years ago, I would have went with China also. The fact that this project has gone from a community dream, to almost reality says a lot.
It's easy to say now, go elsewhere, and Craig even says he will, but if the team would have had to go with a factory closer to home, this project may have never gotten off the ground. Let's keep that in mind. I don't know the details, but I have read that Fatih had relations with these guys in the past(or some team members), and it seems the quality is very nice at this point, but to say China/Chinese is the problem is just wrong!
I'm a union construction worker in Las Vegas, and although I have never worked in a factory setting, I'm here to say US production is not all peaches and cream. I wouldn't pay 99% of the people I work with to run a lemonade stand, let alone pay billions of dollars for a casino. Yet it happens all the time. Everyone has the philosophy of doing less for more, and very few take pride in what they are doing. Open Pandora could have had these cases built down the street from the board factory, and still could have had these problems.
I'm sorry they went were they did, but that was there choice based on there own intel. Craig, you shouldn't say now that the problems your havng now are China specific ones. They are worldwide problems. BAD BUSINESS IS EVERYWHERE! I sell hundreds of items a month on Ebay, and I also buy all over the world. I see good and bad business everywhere.
Hell, Open Pandora took a lot of money from a lot of customers a long time ago, and have yet to deliver a product, so really what makes them any differant than the Chinese mould factory?
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
-Pete Townshend
This 1 sentence says more than all the ranting combined!
Must not forget that the community is undertaking an adventure many of us have dreamed of for a loooooooooong time. Some factory in a country far far away can never change that
Which leads us to ask why you went with a Chinese company in the first place? Luckily Monk is much better at finding quotes than me, and I'm sure he's already busy beavering away looking for the multiple times that you said using a Chinese company was your only option, and producing elsewhere would have resulted in a much higher individual unit cost.
Not only that, but initially they said they would definitely *not* be using Chinese companies for parts of the manufacturing process, because of fear of quality, delays, and other such concerns. So clearly there was previous knowlege of potential issues. Perhaps not the scale of them, but there was reason to be wary. OPT went with China, anyway, and now they Craig says he has no idea it might have been like this?
When it was posted that Fatih was actually going to China, finally, to see these production run cases, I was thrilled! It's like "finally, some work will get done."
Sadly, the factory sent the samples to MWeston and he agreed they were ok, so I think the "Fatih goes to China" adventure was called off. If he had been there to yell at them (via translator) for even one week, there is no doubt in my mind the first 1000 cases would be on their way by now.
He needs a Visa to go there. To get a visa, he needs to give away his passport for a while so that the authorities can create the visa.
Unluckily, that means he cannot go to UK when they ship the cases before he gets there.
Idiotic, I know.
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