Retrode

[bzar]

Aaah. Sarcasm. On the internet. I see the problem now.

Sarcasm works great through a text medium¡

 

[SOLGarion]

Wait a second.. *re-reads B-ZaR's post*

 

[WizardStan]

Legality would still be questionable in the USA though, but not in a lot of other countries. I fear the courts will look at using the device as a way to get around DRM, I.e, playing the games without the original hardware.

The definition of DRM is pretty narrow, and the use of exotic media doesn't count as it, unless some encryption or watermarking is involved. The game cartridges I'm aware of don't use DRM but have standard JEDEC-compliant memory chips inside.

The definition of DRM may be narrow, but the DMCA is pretty broad: anything that circumvents measures to control access to copyright material is illegal. The lock chips in most cartridges are a form of access control. By playing them on something other than the original system for which they are intended, you are circumventing that control.

 

[SOLGarion]

The definition of DRM may be narrow, but the DMCA is pretty broad: anything that circumvents measures to control access to copyright material is illegal. The lock chips in most cartridges are a form of access control. By playing them on something other than the original system for which they are intended, you are circumventing that control.

The point I was making in the first place. Retrode would most likely be seen as illegal in a US court as being against the DMCA. And DRM as it is thought of in the US is pretty broad. Anything you do to make it slightly harder to copy or get at your Copyrighted material is considered DRM, hardware or software. Like WS said above, carts and proprietary disc formats on non original hardware count. I would say that is pretty broad.


Edit: The problem today is with all this retro virtual console stuff on modern systems the big software companies are still making money on 10-30 year old games and might see the Retrode as cutting into profits of people who might still have carts but have lost or broken their nintendo. Don't have to buy all your games twice to play them again anymore. And as small a market or potential profit loss it may be, companies have sued for less.

 

[DavidBowman]

Edit: The problem today is with all this retro virtual console stuff on modern systems the big software companies are still making money on 10-30 year old games and might see the Retrode as cutting into profits of people who might still have carts but have lost or broken their nintendo. Don't have to buy all your games twice to play them again anymore. And as small a market or potential profit loss it may be, companies have sued for less.

This sort of grey-area law stuff infuriates me. I still own all of my Intellivision stuff, for instance. Not only do the original consoles barely work, but there is no readily-accessible way for me to obtain a fully working console again. Even eBay is hit or miss. Emulation would be my only path to playing these games that I legally own. Yet, somehow, our asshat lawyers, politicians and lobbyists have made it so that I cannot enjoy things that I own. Perfect.


On top of that, certain games, namely EarthBound, will most likely never see a re-release in the US on a virtual console of any sort because of new laws preventing bright flashes in video games (and EarthBound is full of these). This is to protect the very small subset of the population that has epilepsy. So as for the rest of us who do not, we're basically dead in the water for a legal way to play our cartridges outside of the original consoles - which are dying. ...WTF?


The bottom line is that greed completely controls the US's legal system. I do not support the DCMA, so I will do what every good patriot has done in the past when faced with unjust laws: break them and encourage others to do so as well.

 

[Blue Protoman]

I thought EarthBound's issue was possible copyright infringement with the music? (The mentioning of the Beatles by name probably doesn't help too much, either.)

 

[SOLGarion]

This sort of grey-area law stuff infuriates me. I still own all of my Intellivision stuff, for instance. Not only do the original consoles barely work, but there is no readily-accessible way for me to obtain a fully working console again. Even eBay is hit or miss. Emulation would be my only path to playing these games that I legally own. Yet, somehow, our asshat lawyers, politicians and lobbyists have made it so that I cannot enjoy things that I own. Perfect.


in the water for a legal way to play our cartridges outside of the original consoles - which are dying. ...WTF?

There is a carve out in the DMCA for circumventing DRM if the original hardware is not easily accessible on the market. It allows it for archival purposes, which was written and interpreted to mean library's and such for historical purposes. Can't say where but pretty sure they don't care about personal use of ancient, near hard to find hardware. The courts do count eBay as being part of the market so Nintendo would sill be easy to find anyway. And Sega Genesis is still being produced under license in places like Brazil. Sucks that the carve out doesn't apply to personal use, especially as time goes on, but for the systems the Retrode is compatible with, wouldn't matter at the moment any way.


Edit: Interesting issue is whether they would count unlicensed hardware like the 3rd party knock offs from china that play carts but do not let you copy like the Retrode does. Especially if the knock offs are not illegal in the country they are made. Licensed 3rd party hardware of course counts and looked like we actually even have that in the US now.

 

[WizardStan]

This sort of grey-area law stuff infuriates me. I still own all of my Intellivision stuff, for instance. Not only do the original consoles barely work, but there is no readily-accessible way for me to obtain a fully working console again.

I've collected several broken Intellivisions over the years and used them to keep one in working order. Some conductive silver paint (which is not terribly expensive but isn't cheap either) keeps the controllers working.


jzIntV was the first thing I ported as soon as I got my hands on a Pandora.

 

[DavidBowman]

I thought EarthBound's issue was possible copyright infringement with the music? (The mentioning of the Beatles by name probably doesn't help too much, either.)

Yes, this too. There's no problem mentioning the Beatles (AFAIK), but the general rip-off of The Blues Brothers (unless this qualifies as a parody) and the use of the "Chuck Berry" riff for certain battle music doesn't help. Those might still be murky issues, but the flashes are a definite reason why we won't see a virtual console port of this game.

There is a carve out in the DMCA for circumventing DRM if the original hardware is not easily accessible on the market. It allows it for archival purposes, which was written and interpreted to mean library's and such for historical purposes. Can't say where but pretty sure they don't care about personal use of ancient, near hard to find hardware. The courts do count eBay as being part of the market so Nintendo would sill be easy to find anyway. And Sega Genesis is still being produced under license in places like Brazil. Sucks that the carve out doesn't apply to personal use, especially as time goes on, but for the systems the Retrode is compatible with, wouldn't matter at the moment any way.


Edit: Interesting issue is whether they would count unlicensed hardware like the 3rd party knock offs from china that play carts but do not let you copy like the Retrode does. Especially if the knock offs are not illegal in the country they are made. Licensed 3rd party hardware of course counts and looked like we actually even have that in the US now.

I would think that the NES/SNES/etc. clone consoles would be seen in the same light as the Retrode. I know that legally I purchase a license from the game companies to play the game on the cartridge that they provided for the intended game system, but... come on. The real world doesn't work that way. Intellectual Property laws are really out of date in my opinion. The fact remains: I paid for the game. I didn't just steal it, and the company didn't lose any money on me. Guh! This drives me nuts!

I've collected several broken Intellivisions over the years and used them to keep one in working order. Some conductive silver paint (which is not terribly expensive but isn't cheap either) keeps the controllers working.


jzIntV was the first thing I ported as soon as I got my hands on a Pandora.

I have three of them, actually. I haven't tried to fire any of them up in a while, but the last one was also purchased on eBay. None of them worked perfectly, if at all. I still have my IntelliVoice module too. And I remember seeing your emulator and being very excited. I also dug that thread out of the grave to say thanks, but I'll say thank you again!


The fact remains that it is still not possible to easily purchase a new console to play your games on. I don't like how emulators are legal but ROMs are still up in the air.

 

[SOLGarion]

I would think that the NES/SNES/etc. clone consoles would be seen in the same light as the Retrode. I know that legally I purchase a license from the game companies to play the game on the cartridge that they provided for the intended game system, but... come on. The real world doesn't work that way. Intellectual Property laws are really out of date in my opinion. The fact remains: I paid for the game. I didn't just steal it, and the company didn't lose any money on me. Guh! This drives me nuts!

Actually it seems you can legally make Nes clones in most markets because the patents are expired. (20 years from date of filing in the US) One would think that the Intellivision and ColecoVision would be in the same boat as far as 20+ years on the patents. Just need someone to break out the old patents and make a clone. Or do a system on a chip like most modern Nes clones. Even with a system on a chip it is nice that the patents are expired because then the clones can also legally incorporate support for the original propriety controllers. The copyrights on the games however are no where near expiring (95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is shorter, for a company owned copyright and life + 70 for a personally owned one). That is why the Nes clones that only play carts are legal but the ones with copyrighted roms pre-installed are not.


Don't know what the deal is with using 3rd party, non-licensed, but legal hardware to play original, officially licensed Carts. You are using non-original hardware, but hardware that doesn't infringe the patent is still non-original hardware designed to get around the DRM that was meant to protect the GAME, not the system. SNES would still be protected although there are plenty of clones that are dual nes/snes or dual nes/sega. Master system has got to be old enough as well although Sega is actively licensing out 3rd party clones. At least they are smart enough to make money from it instead of snubbing their nose like Nintendo did, even after the patents expired. They lost, but still, they tried and that is sad.

 

[DavidBowman]

You're correct about those clone consoles. I had forgotten that the patents had expired. I actually think it's pretty cool that these sorts of clones and SOC's are available. I almost ordered a couple of them just to have them even though I had no real use for them due to emulators.


Sega is an interesting case. What really makes me sad is the decline of the arcade market, where Sega REALLY shone. Outrun remains one of my favorite arcade racers.

 

[SOLGarion]

Still haven't heard from anyone on the team about the distribution partnership idea. Maybe the speaks for itself. Until they are caught up on iCP and Pandora issues they might think about it. Our boys are busy guys!

 

[Matthias_H]

The definition of DRM may be narrow, but the DMCA is pretty broad: anything that circumvents measures to control access to copyright material is illegal. The lock chips in most cartridges are a form of access control. By playing them on something other than the original system for which they are intended, you are circumventing that control.

The point I was making in the first place. Retrode would most likely be seen as illegal in a US court as being against the DMCA. And DRM as it is thought of in the US is pretty broad. Anything you do to make it slightly harder to copy or get at your Copyrighted material is considered DRM, hardware or software. Like WS said above, carts and proprietary disc formats on non original hardware count. I would say that is pretty broad.

Okay, so let's have a look at the DMCA:

(3) As used in this subsection—
(A) to “circumvent a technological measure” means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and


( B) a technological measure “effectively controls access to a work” if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.

SNES games have a CIC chip on board, I give you that. But what is it for if it is not even electrically connected to the ROM chip?? Well, turns out that the CIC controls access to the console, not the game(*)! Apart from that, the cartridge does nothing but supply a piece of software on an industry standard storage medium, with no freakin' technological measure to its protection whatsoever.


If Nintendo wants to sue me, let them. They won't because they know they haven't got the slightest chance, not even in a legal system screwed up as badly by corporate lobbyism as the American one.


(*) Except maybe in the case of the SA-1 coprocessor that integrates CIC functionality and doesn't seem to unlock the ROM before it has talked to the console's CIC. The Retrode does not support the SA-1.

 

[SOLGarion]

(3) As used in this subsection—
(A) to “circumvent a technological measure” means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and


( B) a technological measure “effectively controls access to a work” if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.

Hey Matthias! I don't think Nintendo will sue you, just not worth it, but the bar is pretty low. Being on a cartridge with specialized hardware is enough. Using anything but original hardware is bypassing a technological measure. They don't need a lockout chip or special programing to qualify for DRM under the DMCA. USA has it's head up its ass sometimes caring more about big business instead of fair use (and first sale rights for sake of patents)of the consumers as guaranteed by the constitution.

 

[Blue Protoman]

I know a great way to not even have to think about such headaches.

 

[SOLGarion]

I know a great way to not even have to think about such headaches.

What? Ignoring the topic and responding with a vague, and the poster would argue witty, comment that raises your post count?


+1 Post for me! Am I winning yet?

 

[Blue Protoman]

OK, fine, fine, I'll say something relevant.


I do not think that this circumvents any sort of restrictions and I think that not being able to dump and use cartridges you own is bullshit. (For those to whom the situation is relevant, of course.)

 

[SOLGarion]

OK, fine, fine, I'll say something relevant.


I do not think that this circumvents any sort of restrictions and I think that not being able to dump and use cartridges you own is bullshit. (For those to whom the situation is relevant, of course.)

You are right, it is bullshit, but that is the state of the law in the US at the moment. Opinion does not change fact. They might make a carve out in a year in a half the next time they meet to decide on them like they did for jailbreaking the iPhone. Until then, it is what it is.