Refugee Situation in Europe

[levi]

There's no smoke without nasty gossips trying to force an issue.

 

[Night]

There's no smoke without nasty gossips trying to force an issue.

Oh there's definitely smoke and i have my doubts any gossips are behind the fire.

 

[fishkopf]

Disclaimer: Not everything in this post will be my opinion, i just want to answer the question as good as I can from a perspective of the people you are referring to.
Also I'm not a scientist or anything who really investigated it, these are just my experience so far with Germans.

> Right now I am in deep depression. I have to go through lots and lots of footage from syria and refugee camps, also lots of footage of refugees at the European borders, mediterranean sea and so on.
>I find it absolutely mind boggling, how anyone can ignore this situation, let alone support what is going on at the moment. I see these pictures every day, because I have to cut a lot of material and prepare it as footage for trailers and on stage video. At the same time I hear people on the internet and on the streets in Germany saying "let them drown", "we do not need more immigrants" and hateful stuff towards these people in need. Many claim that they are only coming to steal our stuff and social services, even that most of them have disguised themselves as syrians to infiltrate "us".

There you already answered your question: "I see pictures every day[...]" YOU see them everyday. So what that means is that the regular European/German does not see such things, at least not as frequently as you do.
But I think your question actually goes in a different direction.

First of all, a lot of people are afraid of the situation. And NOBODY listens to them. Yes people like you who call them "hatermongos", and thats a problem of the media the politic and the German-community.
Even President Joachim Gauck agrees: "Wenn wir[...] aufhören, die Probleme zu besprechen, die unsere Mitbürger betreffen, dann werden am rechten Rand genug Verführer und Nutznießer sein, die sich dieser Probleme bemächtigen", rough translation: "If we stop talking about the problems which our fellow citizen concern, than there will be enough people ,who will listen to them from the right wing parties". And that is what i see a lot. There are a lot who are afraid, some because of the refugees, some because they are afraid of losing there job, because there will be "cheaper" workers, some who already lost their job and think it will be even harder to find a job, and some who are afraid of other cultural influences and religions and some who are afraid of terrorists and violence.
I am not saying they are right, i am saying we as a community, the media and the politics must address these concerns, not to tell them they are right, but to get their facts right. Thats what does not happen in Germany an the moment, if i would say I don't want refugees in Germany (anymore), I do not even get ask why, i would be called a Nazi, even though I might just be afraid that the politics can not handle the situation. I hope you understand where i am getting at.
And there is the second problem: What happens at the moment, is just a mess(from the politics side not the refugee side). The politics actually admitted that they don't know how many refugees are in Germany and that they can not control the inflow anymore.
There is a border how many people a country can take in, and there is a border how many people a country can take in right away.
Have you ever been to some of the refugee camps? I have no idea how some of them should handle the winter which is coming, and every camp is overcrowded. So yeah some would argue we are at a maximum of possible refugees intake already. What if we do not have any building left, will Germany "steal" fields from farmers? Will Germany close schools like it does with gyms? Or will we leave refugees on the streets? I am not saying this is impossible, but a lot of people have these questions and NOBODY has an answer.

Again a disclaimer: These are not all my opinions, that is just my subjective experience if i talk to people especially those with a lower education level.

Hope i could enlighten you a little bit, that these are not all "hatermongos" but people who have concerns, which they can not even say out loud, and if they do, nobody listens.
If you still do not get it, just think about how you feel about all those "hatermongos" which do not listen to you, and now imagine how it would be if the politics does not listen to you, and the media as well.
Would you agree with them and say: "yeah hey the must be right because they ignore me", or would you disagree even more and search for people who listen to you?

Best
fish

 

[Not_a_Nick]

Ok let me me throw a devil's advocate type of comment here, because it's also a real problem, do all these politicians all across europe already thought what is going to happen after the conflict in syria has been controlled to acceptable levels? Because follow me here: first, these are refugees, not emigrants, they don't have any kind of visa and so on, it's a special type of admittance that doesn't recognize any rights, second, they'll have to be expatriated under those conditions, what do you think it will happen? I think it's quite predictable don't you? They're being treated like cattle for the purpose of political agendas already, their future is as dark as the place they had to run off.

 

[___]

Firstly, I wasn't branding any population as guilty or anything, all i did was just re-tell a story i heard from actual Germans (IRL) not too long ago and just wanted to see if there was any information, about similar situations in the EU, that anyone around here might be willing to share. Now as for your "proof" that stories like these don't matter.. well they might not, but don't you think that if they held some kind of truth behind them and that there was a sugnificat amount of those stories floating around it might be an indication for the situation at hand? I mean afterall, if there's smoke there's probably a fire somewhere.


For example, if there was a sugnificant amount of the likes of the story i told floating around, it just might indicate that the refugee situation in that area is mismanged and not under a sugnificant level of control. Afterall, a country that has a good plan and the right resources to take refugess in would probably be able to contain any trouble that might be around (take Jordan for example)


On the other hand though, similar stories, might be indeed right-wing bulls*it being spread around by various facist organizations, and in that case might be indicating that (ultra)nationalism or some other derivating ideology might be on the rise for one reason or another (like in Ukraine, for example)


As for what i actually think though, If there was anything yesterday's attack in Paris brought to mind was yet another raised Red Flag.


If the EU has a bad plan when it comes to properly absorbing the refugees and doesn't actually fully realise what they're dealing with, yesterday's terror attack is going to be just the beginning of something far worse.

yeah sorry for coming across harsh. I didn't mean to say that was your intention. I meant the general context these stories are often told in and I think it's a huge propaganda problem, because as I said these are anecdotes and do not change anything about the situation of emergency that these people are in, but spread bad opinionated biggotry. I wasn't trying to imply you were telling that story because of that, but the Germans that told it might have picked it up like that or whatever.


@fishkopf: Yeah you are right, I am also very emotional about this because of these pictures. Obviously I cannot claim to have an objective point of view anymore, which I actually don't regret that much as I believe this is a huge human rights issue that need emotional involvement. On the other side the same can be said for a lot of people who are afraid and thusly believe the gossip/propaganda and because of their fears every incident they can find justifies that.


I guess the only thing one can do, is try to get involved with people and offer another perspective, also trying to inform on what it is actually like as a refugee. Problem is, that a lot of people who are considering themselves politically educated and anti refugee, also do not believe the official numbers on crime statistics and the likes, that they so often quote as false. With all the media hysteria it's understandable that people start doubting things. Normally not believing everything that you read in the newspapers should be a good thing. It gets problematic when you start believing random idiots on facebook instead.


I am cutting video footage for an open discussion roundtable in Dortmund btw. We want to try to offer an alternative forum with a couple of "experts" that people can actually freely question and talk to. No stage with podiums and microphones. Invited are a couple of local politicians, press, and most importantly doctors and organizers of refugee aid programs. Also a lady who is involved with social integration of immigrants. I am pretty excited to hear people talk with each other. Hope it works. There will be two hosts to kind of keep the discussion focussed, but we want to break away the rhetorics and barriers that normally are present in all kinds of political talk shows and panels. We as theatre artists feel, that this is a communication problem and a vacuum that needs to be filled. Of course because stage idiot can't do without, we have an extensive concept ^^. The dude who came up with the plan tries to aim for an agora like environment, at least sort of modeled after that.


What happened in Paris is horrible and an unspeakable tragedy. I can't believe an attack of this magnitude happened right next door. Also I fear, that people will even more so lose their heads over this. More panic and xenophobia is the last thing we need. Well apart from assholes blowing us op for no reason, that of course really is the last thing we all need, and also the reason refugees had to flee their country in the first place.


It proves once again, why terrorism is so effective. In almost all societies their are rules of engagement and at least certain patterns. If you can act above these rules and values (as fanatics especially can) then you can truly terrorize your "enemies". A terrible thought. Of course I shit my pants as well, I was sitting together in a bar with said organizers of the planned event when it came on live tv.

 

[Klumpen]

This is bullshit and proven (!) to be fashist propaganda. It may be, that some refugee steal. But not more than other people from other groups.

Nope, not propaganda.


A Lidl in Burg Stargard and an Aldi in Neubrandenburg where I'm around sometimes were permanently closed due to the losses created by constant freeloading of exactly this kind since the moment the refugee camps in the area were opened and stuffed with people.


Many of those actually think, that the government pays everything for them here and they can actually do this. They were lured here by human traffickers under the impression, that the streets are paved with gold after all.


You don't hear about it in the media since it would be against the national propaganda machine but you get to know about this kind of stuff if you're actually there.


Some female officials were replaced by men, because refugees refused to see women having power over them. Imho they should just have said "leave your sexism at home or gtfo", but that's not how things are handled here.


The national propaganda machine is working quite well if you think, that this is propaganda.

 

[___]

well there is an actual account of something like this happening. That is all I was asking for. And this story actually has a point of sorts. You are now telling me, that whole supermarkets had to close because of being overrun and plundered. This I can believe and this isn't "I heard someone saw two refugees take some stuff". Yes media hysteria is a huge problem.


I don't want to say, that refugees will be easy people to live with. A lot of them are terribly traumatized, have lost hope, dignity and respect for other people through deep distrust. Sexism is a problem I can see as well with a lot of refugees. My mom is a psychiatrist and has been in the German "Flüchtlingshilfe" (refugee aid) for more than 25 years. The stuff a lot of these people have gone through doesn't justify behaving like an asshole but sure explains a lot. Same goes for the sexism. Yes, it's stupid to just replace the officials with men, because you are enforcing sexist behaviour. but sometimes you need to be diplomatic and people from war torn and "sexist" (using the term very losely here, please do not misunderstand) countries will not open up or trust easily if discomforted. Same goes for female refugees who will very often not speak to men either because they not allowed or do not trust men, or just because they are not used to it. So how can you help for example a traumatized sick women, who needs medical attention badly, but is not able for whatever reason to speak and have relations with male helpers? You have to bring in a woman. It's got to be done, the harsh "we will teach you our way, leave your sexism at home" will be necessary later, I do agree there, but that's for people who want to stay, not for people who need help. Just trying to give an example where this might be justified.

 

[Not_a_Nick]

I don't want to say, that refugees will be easy people to live with.

I've travelled all across North Africa and Middle East and been in contact with those populations, believe me when i say this, they're are not going to adapt, the same way most of westerners wouldn't be able to adapt there too for several reasons, mainly cultural. This is much more complex than black or white, olive oil and water don't mix for a reason.

 

[___]

yeah that goes a bit too far for me. I am sure it works, but it is a lot of work. I live and have lived in a lot of places with many immigrants from the middle east and it works quite well. But these are first and foremost refugees. They need help wether they will fit in or not. I think in a globalized world like we have today, we need to take global responsibility. I am sure you'd expect the same from your fellow humans if you need to flee some day for whatever reason. I do realize that is isn't easy. I wouldn't say it is going to fail just because of that.

 

[Klumpen]

The real question is:


How much altruism can we afford and what are we willing to risk just for feeling good about ourselves?

 

[_jr_]

No. The real question is still: how can we weather the current situation (since it cannot be changed, even if fearful small-minded people irrationally hope so) and be better prepared for next time. One way could be to get a small revolution going and change the constitution to one that doesn't require Germany to grant due process to everybody seeking asylum. Personally, I wouldn't want to live there.

 

[Klumpen]

No. The real question is still: how can we weather the current situation (since it cannot be changed, even if fearful small-minded people irrationally hope so) and be better prepared for next time. One way could be to get a small revolution going and change the constitution to one that doesn't require Germany to grant due process to everybody seeking asylum. Personally, I wouldn't want to live there.

The shit has hit the fan already indeed and it should and could have been avoided if people wouldn't have voted for the same idiots over and over again.


I don't know if this clusterfuck can be solved in a nice way at all - certainly not by the people that let it happen and certainly not in a nice way by the far-right which undoubtedly will have an enormous boost in the next elections in March and September in Germany.


Coming from a refugee family myself, I somehow get the feeling, that I'll have to migrate again sooner or later thanks to all of this and I honestly can't afford it atm.


One of the things that really urk me is the mass censorship and media control that is happening on a large scale now by Merkel and her accomplices which somehow have to save face while others have to pay yet again as always with this bunch.

 

[_jr_]

I agree, that the situation is crap (and I don't think that anybody is happy with it). I also agree, that it could have been prevented, but people are idiots. What irks me is that the first time during Merkel's tenure something actually is 'alternativlos', people are spending so much time on putting blame instead of working on the solution. I agree, the current cabinet is to blame, but can we please sort that out at the next election. Currently the priority should be to build up the infrastructure at home (housing capacity, police/office staff, support for receiving communities) and work internationally to patch up the world enough to be somewhat stable again (until then sending people back is not even an option). It might be a necessary to change some figurheads to reach these goals and talking about how to get the rules across is obviously a good idea (though I'm pretty sure that the largest problem currently is the long duration of the asylum procedure itself).

 

[rygD]

Some female officials were replaced by men, because refugees refused to see women having power over them. Imho they should just have said "leave your sexism at home or gtfo", but that's not how things are handled here.

I feel this is especially true.  To put it another way, don't come to my house and tell me how things are going to be, and if you do, don't expect kindness from me.  (I will be a good host as long as you are a good guest.)  I understand there are cultural differences, so both groups need to understand that and make compromises, but if you go somewhere you can't expect everyone else to change what they do or think to appease you.


As for the overall situation, I can't really speak on it since I am not familiar enough with all the details.  I can give what I am thinking:  It might be nice to help people out in a time of crisis, however there is only so much you can do to help others before it starts severely harming you. Will there be anyone willing to help you out?  Is it really helping by giving someone a place to feel safe temporarily only to not have the ability to handle the situation that is created, such as providing them with food, warmth, and safety.  I can see crime becoming a bigger problem than what has been described in this thread.  My only recommendation will probably seem heartless to some people, but you have to take care of yourself (your citizens) before you can try to help others.  Take in what can be managed, and talk to others to try getting things in place for them to help out if they are willing.

 

[Night]

I don't know if this clusterfuck can be solved in a nice way at all - certainly not by the people that let it happen and certainly not in a nice way by the far-right which undoubtedly will have an enormous boost in the next elections in March and September in Germany.

I always liked to think that Germany was one of those nations that had things well organized to their needs and probably had some kind of plan for situations like these, I mean afterall, they're a major mechanism behind what makes the EU function at present time.


I might be just too optimistic for once, but i think there's details that are yet to be unveiled when it comes to what the EU has in plan for the crisis.

 

[thatgui]

If you're going to call something "proven bullshit" then the burden of proof is on you.


As it stands I have no reason to disbelieve the story.  I also have no reason to think that it's representative of all refugees, but that doesn't mean the story itself  is untrue.


-Neelix

So, let me get this straight:


I start circulating the story that ED is stealing lollipops from toddlers here on the boards. This story just needs to circulate long enough in order for people calling that "bullshit" have to disproof something there was no proof for it from the get go ?

I am not saying they are right, i am saying we as a community, the media and the politics must address these concerns, not to tell them they are right, but to get their facts right. Thats what does not happen in Germany an the moment, if i would say I don't want refugees in Germany (anymore), I do not even get ask why, i would be called a Nazi, even though I might just be afraid that the politics can not handle the situation. I hope you understand where i am getting at.
 

Unfortunately that something I am saying since people started to rally around Pegida and simliar minded movements - if you just tell people that they are afraid and dumb, they stop listening to you..

Nope, not propaganda.


A Lidl in Burg Stargard and an Aldi in Neubrandenburg where I'm around sometimes were permanently closed due to the losses created by constant freeloading of exactly this kind since the moment the refugee camps in the area were opened and stuffed with people.

Is there any proof that this is for real, like a police report or at least a local newspaper article ? As long as there are no actual reports, this is just a made up story for me - much like that crap that 70% of the refugees are young males, that is tossed around everywhere with no data at all to back that up.

One of the things that really urk me is the mass censorship and media control that is happening on a large scale now by Merkel and her accomplices which somehow have to save face while others have to pay yet again as always with this bunch.

What I would really love would be if people would use terms correctly. There is just no censorship or media control by the government or someone else, its just wrong, everyone in Germany can still almost say/write/publish what he wants (except hate speeches). What we have (sadly) is a really biased "consensus" on what to report or not (and the government has no semi-secret role in it), these are just social mechanisms at play.

I might be just too optimistic for once, but i think there's details that are yet to be unveiled when it comes to what the EU has in plan for the crisis.

Why on earth would you think that ?


There surely will be nothing coming from Germany, Madame chancellor was raised "konfuzius - style" by her political father > "just wait, and everything will be fine", but (as he was in his last years), she is now in a situation were she is actually forced to act, and consequences of her actions are showing up rather quickly. And the result is, that it clearly shows, that she has no plan at all, as she only can act on instinct.


On a more supranational level: Western/Nato states faired with (North)African countries for several hundreds years to their liking, killing millions either directly, or indirectly: war, proxy wars, creating borders to their liking  ,destabilizing goverments/regions , destroing local markets through subsidising non local products, or high import taxes (in western countries) for local products, hell, they even accomplished to turn something genuine "humane" like donating clothes into something that harms the "african" economy.


All this is going on for so long, and nobody ever thought that this may fire back and some point, why should that change suddenly ?

 

[pmprog]

I personally don't know what to make of it all. I'm not directly opposed to accepting refugees, but the economy isn't exactly brilliant in the UK (not sure it's much better in the rest of Europe either) with the scale of immigrants (and this may be harsh, but no, I don't think they're all refugees), I don't know what they'll do when they get here, apart from maybe completely break our failing system.


Either way, this is definately wrong...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11902296/Second-German-woman-evicted-from-her-home-to-make-way-for-refugees.html

 

[Klumpen]

Is there any proof that this is for real, like a police report or at least a local newspaper article ? As long as there are no actual reports, this is just a made up story for me - much like that crap that 70% of the refugees are young males, that is tossed around everywhere with no data at all to back that up.


What I would really love would be if people would use terms correctly. There is just no censorship or media control by the government or someone else, its just wrong, everyone in Germany can still almost say/write/publish what he wants (except hate speeches). What we have (sadly) is a really biased "consensus" on what to report or not (and the government has no semi-secret role in it), these are just social mechanisms at play.

Are you calling me a liar?


This information comes directly from me and the people living there seeing it for themselves. My ex-gf is living there and I'm visiting her sometimes, you've gotten this information first hand. Don't expect anything about it in the media though (see below). Since the Lidl and Aldi are closed the shops in the Bethanien Center are fearing that they'll come there now but since it has security they aren't as much endangered as the singular super markets which can't do much about hordes of people grabbing what they can and leaving with bursting carts. The truth isn't always as nice as we'd want it to be, just go and see for yourself.

What I would really love would be if people would use terms correctly. There is just no censorship or media control by the government or someone else, its just wrong, everyone in Germany can still almost say/write/publish what he wants (except hate speeches). What we have (sadly) is a really biased "consensus" on what to report or not (and the government has no semi-secret role in it), these are just social mechanisms at play.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is naive. A good friend of mine is a reporter and what I've seen regarding censorship happening there for years would make your toes curl. The Kreisredaktion is passing the narrative on to the smaller papers and their Chefredakteur has to check and alter every article of the journalists accordingly. Most (if not all) papers are indirectly owned by SPD or CDU and they have very clear control about what is allowed to report and what isn't. Have you at least heard about the meeting between Angela Merkel and Mark Zuckerberg for culling opinions in the internet as well? The CDU is trying to shut down anything that is hurting their narrative atm more than ever before to save face and this is no joke or conspiracy theory but the hard truth and sadly the right wing will only become stronger because of such methods.


You've heard about the police keeping quiet about rape-epidemics and the story about the Westphalenblatt daring to write something about it, right?


I've gotten direct confirmation of this since I was sceptical too at first: http://www.infowars.com/german-police-covering-up-rapes-so-as-not-to-legitimize-critics-of-mass-migration/


If the rest of Europe doesn't help and doesn't divide the number of refugees more equally, things will get really ugly since what we see now may only be the tip of the iceberg if those people will get their whole family coming here too later which is the usual way and only natural.

 

[thatgui]

Are you calling me a liar?


This information comes directly from me and the people living there seeing it for themselves. My ex-gf is living there and I'm visiting her sometimes, you've gotten this information first hand. Don't expect anything about it in the media though (see below).

That depends, when you can point out exactly where I did call you a liar, I guess so otherwise, I fear you are already in complete "defensive mode" and there is probably nothing I can do about it. Anyways, I just used a search engine and entered the Lidl supermarket you mentioned, and it looks like its open, or at least its not mentioned, that its closed, or was closed. But I guess it does not matter because of censorship

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is naive. A good friend of mine is a reporter and what I've seen regarding censorship happening there for years would make your toes curl. Most (if not all) papers are indirectly owned by SPD or CDU and they have very clear control about what is allowed to report and what isn't. Have you at least heard about the meeting between Angela Merkel and Mark Zuckerberg? The CDU is shutting down anything that is hurting their narrative atm more than ever before and this is no joke or conspiracy theory but the hard truth and sadly the right wing will only become stronger because of such methods.

Even all those small local rags are all controlled by "the parties", and police reports are also censored, and both companies, Lidl and Aldi are also not allowed (by whom btw. also the parties ?) not give any reports about this? What about the taz ? Its the most leftist, "selfowned" newspaper thats widely available, also controlled? What about newspapers in other contries ? If they even report an eviction that was triggered by the current situation, wouldn't they be really interested if a supermarket that was looted by refugees. I guess they are all also controlled ?

 

[Klumpen]

Just go to Neustrelitz, Neubrandenburg, Burg Stargard and the surrounding area for a while, see for yourself instead of lazily relying on official reports and ask people working there, I have nothing more to say to you.