Ram & eMMC costs / power drain

[ible]

If it is alright with @Grench, I may borrow a few of yer words to throw into the FAQ on the wiki. (And/or feel free to edit.)

 

[Mr_Loon]

If it is alright with @Grench, I may borrow a few of yer words to throw into the FAQ on the wiki. (And/or feel free to edit.)

Please note that there has been no official announcement regarding Ram size for Pyra, or the possibility/feasibility of having a 'premium' model with 4GB of Ram. It might be best to mention that in case people reading the FAQ mistakenly believe this has come from an official source.

 

[levi]

A dev board only tells you how much RAM you can use, not how much extra power the different module use, nor how much the RAM modules cost - those are the things Mr_Loon is asking for, if you look.

But I agree, trust ED. I personally suspect the decision has been delayed until the prototypes have got some more use. As I understand it there will be multiple revisions of the prototypes in all likelyhood, so different permutation can be tried out. But once ED has some stats from the prototypes, he probably has all the information he needs, so doesn't really need to consult the community unless he wants to.

 

[ible]

Mostly official:

Also, the Wiki has a disclaimer on the front page (Unofficial source of info, Openpandora GmbH not responsible for content.)...

But if the prayers of the fervent are heard, and it miraculously changes from 2GB to 4GB, it's very easy to fix the FAQ.

[edit] Switch it to "Why only 4GB of RAM? Why not 8GB???"

[less cheeky edit] But it is possible for future upgrades...

 

[comradekingu]

Your reasoning does not answer the base of the conundrum, why have a FAQ, and what does it answer?

 

[rygD]

Your reasoning does not answer the base of the conundrum, why have a FAQ, and what does it answer?

The reason to have a FAQ is to cut down on the number of times the same questions get asked. It answers frequently asked questions.

 

[thatgui]

Usage scenarios arent arbitrary. If you start fitting them to something arbitrary, like an artificial limit, then they no longer hold water. Im doing one, you are doing the other. Then you blame me for how you make the premise void.

Usage scenario only makes sense in context - like in the mobile area, where usage scenarios depend on "arbitrary" hardware limits like screensize and means of input (no mouse, etc.). Ehat you are doing is clearly trying to fit a desktop usage scenario into a mobile one > which the Pyra is clearly made for, otherwise it would not have rather plentiful means of input > stationary usage in desktop mode isn't the main scope.

A 2,5" is physically an impossible object to incorporate, whereas more dense ram-chips weigh exactly the same and use the same space.

Does not matter, it was just an example that your kind of argument is leading to nowhere - but anyway: its adds just about 7-8mm, and with people being interested in metal casings weight does not seem to be a problem for everyone,.

Coming up with a phone is a great idea. Mp3 players become laptops, laptops become phones. Phones have 4GB ram nowadays, yes.

Uggh, I guess I'am completely out of the loop in that regard...

If you look at the poll, you will see the demand for >2GB is anything but cloudy.

So what you are saying is, 4GB should be used as this would make the Pyra appeal to a group that is already that much involved in the Pyra, that they take the time to partake in a poll some other guy on the board made? Isn't the probability higher that they would buy the Pyra anyway?

If you are fine with openpandora performance, then buy an openpandora. There will be plenty on the market to buy. Not having a vast improvement over current products isn't a very sound business-plan.

So far you failed to bring up a valid usecase that justifies the extra amount of money and maybe runtime that has to be spent on increasing the memory size

Laptops also have at least 4GB ram, if you want to call it a laptop, it has to have that. Calling it a mini subnotebook, or netbook, doesnt have the same appeal.

Laptops also usually have a lot bigger interntal storage capacity and far more beefier CPU and GPU, why weren't/aren't rooting for more in this fields ? Maybe, because everything has to be seen in context ?

It would be a great return on a fairly minimal investment to accurately examine the battery implications IMHO.
...
There would be no investment needed for the cost aspect to be discussed.

I guessed that those memory chips would need to be bought and those one or two protoypes would have to be made (which should cost time and money). With the latest posts from ED, I got the impression he is getting rather close to its resource limits - so why, should he invest resources in something where currently there is no real reason for other then appeal and odd usage scenarios ? Especially as he has an active competitor now, the product already has a non competitive pricing and with the possibility for an upgrade in the not so far future, which would resolve that too.

 

[Faust]

Coming up with a phone is a great idea. Mp3 players become laptops, laptops become phones. Phones have 4GB ram nowadays, yes.

Galaxy S7 and S7 Edge
Galaxy Note 5 and Galaxy S6 Edge Plus
Elephone P9000 and P9000 Lite
Huawei Mate 8 4GB
OnePlus 2 4GB
Oppo R7 Plus 4GB
Letv Le 1 Pro
LG V 10
Asus ZenFone 2 4GB Model
Xiaomi Mi Note Pro
ZTE Nubia Z9 Exclusive Edition
ELEPHONE VOWNEY
Lenovo K80 4GB model

There are also +100 phones with >=3GB memory

If you look at the poll, you will see the demand for >2GB is anything but cloudy.

Sorry Pal but with the kind of optimization we had with the Pandora and that we will have with the Pyra, you should more compare the Pyra to the IPhone, and the (last) IPhone 6 plus has 2 GB of RAM.

I'm not an IPhone user, I have a Alcatel idol 3 4.7 ( android, 1.5 GB of RAM) actually I don't like IOS but we can't deny that it's one of the most optimised mobile OS that exists.

 

[rygD]

I have no interest in being involved in the debate (however I would be interested in answers to the questions this thread is about, if ED has the time/money/interest in checking these things out, both the RAM and eMMC). Although we had a lot of optimized software for the Pandora I don't know what to expect for the Pyra outside of what is done by a handful of dedicated individuals. I would like stuff specifically for the the Pyra, but is anyone going to bother with things that are available, and somewhat usable, from the Debian repo? I should probably take a look at some point, before I get my Pyra, to see what is available compared to the x86 repo.

 

[Grench]

If it is alright with @Grench, I may borrow a few of yer words to throw into the FAQ on the wiki. (And/or feel free to edit.)

That would be missing my overall point. CAUSING and continuing a controversy over RAM sizing is damaging. There is no practical stated need for more. Publicizing it AS controversial results in making an issue out of what should be a non-issue. The dev board user results showed 2GB as being appropriate. The "MOAR!!!" crowd is basing their 'needs' on outlandish professional workstation usage cases. Posting this as an actual issue to the FAQ would only further the "MOAR!!!" crowd's objectives - and be damaging to the project. It isn't an issue or decision for you/them/us to solve or make nor to demand input on.

Please note that there has been no official announcement regarding Ram size for Pyra, or the possibility/feasibility of having a 'premium' model with 4GB of Ram. It might be best to mention that in case people reading the FAQ mistakenly believe this has come from an official source.

By adding a line like that to the FAQ you are directly implying that the RAM quantity, that we don't know yet, is somehow inferior and is a direct implication that buyers should hold off until that gets 'fixed'. It is misleading and potentially -damaging- by implication, even though the actual FACTS contradict the implied claim. Passive aggressive criticism, particularly when added to the FAQ will get included in "product reviews" by lazy press-writers who won't have held or directly seen a Pyra, let alone examined what it can do with it's RAM, and blasted out as a major fault when it isn't a fault at all.

There has been no official announcement of case color, NAND size, NAND speed, mass/weight, what telcos the wireless will work on, the exact measure of the key travel distance, the screen or digitizer manufacture's daughter's name or potential names for EvilDragon's second cousin's future child that may or may not have been conceived or born yet. Not one of those is within the communities place to challenge, change or demand knowledge of either.

It is a project that has welcomed community input over the years in formulating what will be a very cool device. The time for that input is past now, and now we all need to back off and let the project team get the Pyra produced. By continuing to argue that the RAM should be revisited, re-argued, spoken of with caveats or stars, expressed with notes of future 'premium/fixed/special' versions, stated with excuses or some other apologetic statement is a recipe for lower sales and diminished interest. Since this project did/does rely on the community's input and support, your demands for attention and re-visiting already 'done' specs hurts the project AND the community.

There isn't a 'RAM Issue'. There are a few people who refuse to accept that they won't need a metric shit ton of RAM to do what the Pyra is designed to do. They claim absurd desktop workstation usage cases as proof of need. They refuse to take the word of people who had actual use of a dev board. This 'controversy' is contrived to feed their egos, not to benefit the community - which is being harmed, albeit indirectly, and the project itself - which is being harmed directly, by their continued irrational rantings and demands.

 

[ible]

perhaps, but i don't foresee the Pyra as being marketed to people who require the latest and greatest specs. at any rate, if we don't say anything in the FAQ, and it "only" comes with 2GB, publicity will mention it anyway, and compare it to other things on the market (smart phones, laptops, etc.). at least the FAQ we have some control over.

and plus, if there are folks who just can't live without 4+GB, then the first edition pyra is probably not for them. it wouldn't hurt to be frank up front; transparency is good, right?

 

[comradekingu]

Sorry Pal but with the kind of optimization we had with the Pandora and that we will have with the Pyra, you should more compare the Pyra to the IPhone, and the (last) IPhone 6 plus has 2 GB of RAM.

I'm not an IPhone user, I have a Alcatel idol 3 4.7 ( android, 1.5 GB of RAM) actually I don't like IOS but we can't deny that it's one of the most optimised mobile OS that exists.

The Iphone SE is the latest one, albeit also sporting 2GB ram. That apple has fallen off the flagship on ram, screens and camera doesn't mean the industry as a whole is dictated by their choices. iOS is a toy-OS that does not translate to Linux|GNU.

And I would argue that a 5" slate without any buttons is a toy device. Which is why im ok with my S3 with replicant. It doesnt do anything more advanced in a convenient enough manner to make use of more ram and speed.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Question is, is any of this normal? Has my concept of what enough RAM is (and therefore how much RAM it would be nice to have in the Pyra) been skewed heavily by this?

A quick look at my memory usage with Chrome and this seems normal, using over 1.5GB here with 10 open tabs. No idea if this would be different under Linux.

By adding a line like that to the FAQ you are directly implying that the RAM quantity, that we don't know yet, is somehow inferior and is a direct implication that buyers should hold off until that gets 'fixed'.

What I see when I read 'premium model' is better specs in some areas but more expensive, pretty sure that is the widely accepted view. My general point was to avoid presenting unknowns as facts in the FAQ so it's a fair point to not mention a 'premium model'.

The time for that input is past now, and now we all need to back off and let the project team get the Pyra produced......

What if you thought it was possible they were missing an opportunity that could be easily rectified? If after careful consideration you saw a missed opportunity in another area that could be easily rectified would you stay silent, would that be helpful?

Here's the thing about the Ram debate, in my personal opinion you cannot make a sensible decision about 2GB vs 4GB without knowing the cost and battery implications, as well as a few other things such as if power saving can turn off unused ram, swap file performance etc. Some of these can only be tested properly using a prototype with production parts and also having a good idea of when the Ram will be bought. Any decision made before knowing these things is possibly sub optimal. I know that the price of Ram can be volatile, add in currency fluctuations and I can see it's hard to give accurate costings unless you're nearing the time when the parts will be ordered. So now is the time to make that decision based on the relevant facts. A factor in making that decision is understanding what your customers would want.

I fully appreciate that 2GB will be fine for many users here even if hypothetically 4GB was an extra €5 with no battery implications, power saving available & not great swap performance. I get that, why spend that extra €5 if you'll never use use it, that makes perfect sense to me.

However, there will be a number of potential customers, myself included, who are interested in using the Pyra as a desktop replacement (there is even talk of an official desktop dock some time in the future) and don't find the idea in any way absurd of having 10 tabs open in Chrome, an Android VM using 1GB of ram running in the background & doing a few other things as well. Or using the Pyra for other tasks that benefit from Ram, such as image editing, compiling software, music creation, some gaming? etc. Please accept that other peoples usage scenarios may vary.

You are of course welcome to your opinion on whether it's helpful to the project to have an open discussion of the facts relevant to choosing the default size for Pyra Ram or the feasibility of a 'premium model'. My opinion is that it is helpful and that now is the time to start amassing and discussing those facts so decisions can be made.

 

[WizardStan]

No idea if this would be different under Linux.

This is Linux, Arch specifically.

 

[rygD]

While I disagree with a lot of what @Grench is saying, including some of the accusations, I fully agree that the RAM thing should be pulled from the FAQ. If there is a "need" to address such things, including the lack of camera, why not have a more generic "Why doesn't it have (more) fill in the blank?" with a response that fits all of those questions. I can think of a few answers: limited funding, limited resources, potential future upgrades/versions, current expected specs are adequate for MOST of the existing community, feature creep means it will never get released, because EvilDragon made his decision to not include it. There can even be a sentence in there about being creative with what you do have to get the most out of it, with pointers at what has been done for the Pandora, how it is designed to allow people to poke around inside (edit: and is modular, with an expected release of all files, so you can roll your own with more RAM or a different SoC, etc.), and that we get all the USB ports and SD slots.

I suppose I could go edit it myself, but SO LAZY...

 

[ible]

if we're going to be over-critical what gets put into the wiki, we won't ever put anything useful in it.

that would be a shame.

i'm also fine with the more general statement of "why not X?", but I think that could be a third question in the hardware part of the FAQ.

 

[rygD]

Hmmm, so edit war?

 

[ible]

alls i'm saying is let's empower people to edit the wiki to add content. let's revise, too, but let's get people involved and feel like they can contribute. (i.e., without just erasing their content...) right now we need content, not cuts.

re: contributing to the wiki, @Binky you're awesome!

 

[levi]

Hmmm, so edit war?

Sounds like an improvement on the current at least.

 

[Grench]

My opinion is that it is helpful and that now is the time to start amassing and discussing those facts so decisions can be made.

The time for those discussions passed many months ago. Your opinion of helpfulness is incorrect as those decisions are done and closed. At this stage, your actions are harmful and potentially damaging.

The FAQ should be truthfull AND project positive/supportive.

If the Pyra has 2GB, then it has four times more than the Pandora had. Factual and positive.

If you guys keep this negative crap up and in the FAQ, then the "press" is simply going to slaughter it without giving any consideration to actual capabilities.

"Hi, we're the Pandora/Prya community. We have been discussing and working out the details and encouraging the manufacture of our dream device for over three years so that a few of us can kill it as soon as it's born because they wanted the baby to have 12 toes and it only has 10. Sure it could run, skip and jump, but they wanted the extra specs so that they can stroke their egos."

Celebrate that this device is getting made at all. If we don't support it, what then?