Pyra vs GPD WIN


jonezy1984

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Hi guys,

Although there’s no comparison, i’m torn between buying one of these units. Sadly, my understanding of Linux in general is quite limited, so any input or advice is much appreciated.

In short I’m looking for a handheld device that I could use for the following:

- Text processing

- Basic communication apps (skype, line, etc.)

- Being able to use an external webcam (skype, conference call, etc.)

- Running emulators, connecting two usb controllers and using the device as home console

- Playing older style PC games: from older games like the original fallout to maybe games from less than 10 years ago, e.g. the 1st company of heroes

- Being able to join a friends LAN-party where we usually play older style games: e.g.: counter-strike (& mods) , avp(1&2), company of heroes, etc.

The reason why I’m torn between either buying a Pyra or GPD Win is:

I know too little about Linux to know if I’ll be able to play the older pc games (probably fallout is no problem with exagear) and join in on the LAN-party.

Also, would it be possible to boot a windows OS or even android OS on the Pyra?

With the GPD I’ll be able to do all of the above, but, since I already bought an XD I have serious doubts about the build quality (my XD has misaligned rubbers, bad heat dissipation, etc.)

The Pyra on the other hand , will definitely be superior build quality and might be upgradable (replacable components) in the future. And, just want to support this awesome project :)

If I could do all of the above things with the Pyra, It’s well worth it’s price.

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks guys
 

Caine

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- The Pyra will be able to do text processing through Libre Office or LaTeX (if that's your preference). Probably Word can be made to run through Wine, but the GPD will do that natively.
- Basic communication in general will be possible, but Skype in particular may be troublesome (ARM Linux, vs X86 Windows). So if Skype is important then that favours the GPD as well.
- External webcam should not be a problem on the Pyra.
- Emulators with and without external controllers, standalone or as home console will be a major selling point for the Pyra.
- Games running in Dosbox will likely work. Other PC games will have to run through Wine & Exagear on the Pyra. I expect serious problems here running closed source games like Company of Heroes.

Windows is mostly x86 focused and thus will not run on the Pyra. Android should be doable.

The Pyra on the other hand , will definitely be superior build quality and might be upgradable (replacable components) in the future. And, just want to support this awesome project :)
Not sure where that conclusion comes from, the build quality was one of the weaker parts of the Pandora. The Pyra still has to prove itself here.

Given that your usecases are very windows/x86 heavy, I expect that the GPD Win may be a better fit. I am sure others here will disagree :)
 

rygD

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Something something something comparing an oven to a microwave oven. (This is directed at someone else.)

Caine did a pretty good job of answering your questions. I think there is a spreadsheet or chart showing a comparison of devices in the wiki, and another on Google or somewhere. If they aren't already discussed, the points you brought up would be useful to look at since they are common concerns. I will get you the wiki link in a bit.
[doublepost=1472123666,1472123408][/doublepost]https://www.pyra-handheld.com/wiki/index.php?title=Comparison_Chart
 

ingoreis

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I was on the Gamescom and my Impressions of Pyra and GPD Win was very interresting.
Each Product have little Things better than the other.

After all my Tests....i stay and buy only one Pyra.
My Reasons why i do this:

-the Keyboard is realy difficult to use on the GPD Win
-the Battery is Buildin and is not Changeable
-the Temperature...wow it got realy realy warm in my Hands
-the Thickness...The GPD Win was too slim for my Hands while playing.It was not much ergonomic for me.I did not can hold it long because it was little sharp for my Hands(sorry i cannot explain that in englisch good)
-The Touchscreen:
I thought it make not a big Sense but it was very Difficult to hit the Tiny Icons in Windows with only my Fingers.I prefer realy a Pentouchscreen like the Pyra..its much more exact that Fingers.
-not Upgradeable
-not enough Connectors for me
-and its so much Slim that i do not realy Trust the stability. When accidently your Device will fall or you seat accidently on it...i trust the Pyra more because the Pyra Plastic is one of the stablest and best.

But the Opposite with the Pyra:
- much much better Keyboard with Backlight
- I can Change the Battery,
- have more Sensors(for me Important)
- more Connectors
- Chance for maybe a X86 or Hexa/octacore in the Future...its Updradeable
- more stable Plastic
- much more Ergonomic because all Things are good Reachable and rounded
- The better Touchscreen
- the Sata/USB Combo Connector....yes you will have a REAL Sata Connector with a little Adapter
- Sound Output for Earphones
- 3.5 SoundIR Adapter for Infrared TV Remote Controll possible with Lirc
- more native Operating OS possible than GPD Win
- maybe up to Playstation2 Emulation thx to Purei.org
- a Wheel for making Sound fast noiser and more Silent
- because we have Notaz,Ptitseb,Exophase and other great Porters and a better Community which help more :D
- many Parts produced in Germany (shure not all Parts)
- aaand the Mobile Internet Function Buildin


@the start of the Pandora i had the Problem..i did not knowed right what Arm is :D
And i learned that Arm Computers can realy be good.
And i thought realy we have Open GL and not OpenGLES..but that is solved now with the GLSHIM Wrapper.
We have so much Software on the Repo...and that only with the Pandora.
You will miss a Pyra :D
When we got on the Pandora fresh Minecraft with up to 86 FPS running...what can we do with the Pyra?

GPD Win is for playing Windows Games not bad and i whishes Years for a Machine like this...
...but without 4g/Lte/mobile Internet?
For me useless then and i have realy Fear because the Temperature from this Machine.
Even it gets an Fan Upgrade.
 

Alperoot

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@Caine , well, I won't disagree ^^

- About text processing, LibreOffice can really be a good candidate for Microsoft Office. If you really need Office, GPD Win might be able to run the 2013 version, whereas Pyra might run older versions of Office via Wine+Exagear.

- Not sure about Line, but Skype might or might not be a problem on the Pyra. Of course, Win will run it natively but one of the things that one Exagear developer showed was running x86 Skype on ARM Ubuntu. So not really sure about that.

- Both devices will have support for external webcams, but I am sure that one guy will write a tutorial about how to hack a webcam into the Pyra so it will look more "elegant?"

- As @Caine said, emulators on Pyra is one of the biggest selling points. But that really depends. GPD Win can "run" experimental 3DS emulators, experimental Wii U emulators, Gamecube emulators and more. But that doesn't necessarly means they are playable. Pyra, however, will have much more optimized emulators. DS emulating stutters even on my decent PC, it doesn't on my Rebirth Pandora however. Connecting two controlles should not be a problem with a USB hub.

- Well, Pyra is going to have a really decent DOSBox emulators. GPD Win probably will be have to (what?) run them on a Virtual Machine.

- If we get 3D-acceleration, Counter-Strike will run just fine (with Wine+Exagear) and I think we should have no problems with LAN-partys. I never heard the other games, though.

- There is already a guy working on Android on Pyra. Windows up to ME should run, too. (Via QEMU)

About build quality, you can be sure that Pyra will be very good. Pandora had lots of problems, and ED is very good at getting lessons from past problems.

I see you have some doubts about both devices. I recommend you to wait until GPD Win releases, and then watch reviews.
 

ible

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would you be able to get skype running via Android on the pyra?

right now i just use google hangouts since it's browser based (less annoyances than trying to get skype running, though it's not so hard on x86 ubuntu now...) also not sure if we'll get that on desktop ARM, since i don't know if google chrome works there. (you'd have to go to android, as well, i think...)

there are some open source alternatives, but not sure how good they are.

[edit] but yeah, you may want to wait for reviews on both, just to see if you like what you hear about the devices.
 
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ingoreis

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rygD asked me and i answered.
Sorry for my bad english :)

Did you use either of them long enough to notice heating up more than when they were sitting there doing nothing?
What software, if any, did you use on each, and how did it perform?

On the Gamescom there where much 3D Games on the GPD Win for testing.
It played Minecraft and Mirrors Edge smoothly(not bad) :)
After playing a while Mirrors Edge the GPD Win X86 Overheating Protection
was activated,the Device slower for cooling down and the entire Device was more warm and slow a few Minutes.
On the Pyra i must say it was a naked like fresh installed Linux without working 3D Driver yet.
Tested only little Terminal Things and OpenOffice on it. OpenOffice was smoothly.
I did not tested 3D Games on the Pyra because the OS Finetuning with Drivers need still more Time yet. ;)
Pyra Button work like Pandora Button and the Menu open fine in the Xfce.

The Win is going to be a bit thicker than the one you saw. Did either of them seem to be a better size to put in your pocket than the other? I know you probably didn't actually test it, so a best guess is good enough.
Gpd Win will be little more Thick?
Sound good but i hope that the Edges will be more round...
...they where realy sharp and i cannot hold that Prototype for a longer Time.
And my Hands whered sweating with that high Temperature.

You said the Pyra plastic seemed better. Both are still prototypes, but did either of them feel more flimsy, like it would fall apart or might break easier? (You kinda answered this, but it wasn't entirely clear)
Pyra Plastic?
Yes it will be the hardest Plastic you can get...
..see this Video..the Pyra ist made of the SAME Plastic.
Rnember it? :)

Am I correct in my understanding that you have no interest in the Win for personal use even after testing it out?
What I mean is if someone gave you one for free would you use it much?
Phew what for a Question.... :$
..i love Handhelds..i whished a long time for a Device like the GPD Win.
Only 4 Things decided me to do buy it not:
-no Mobile Internet
-the Keyboard ist realy difficult to use for me.
For Typing Text like this is will be very Difficult.
-the not Changeable Battery
-the Fear with the completly overheating.
Heat make for a short time no Problems but the more often Heat..the more often decrase the Quality of the EnergyPipes and oder Things Insode...like People who have often a high blood Pressaure...work often good but then come anytime the Heartstop.
Second is that we can say that every Battery goes broken(deep discharge,or example decrase the Power from 6900 mah to 2000 mah in some Time)
Some Batterys Years earlier..some Years later and thats the Reason i want a Changable Battery.

For Home Using i will accept gladly a free GPD Win...who not??? :D
Maybe i will buy one in the Future..my Brother Preordered one.
All in all this is not a Bad Machine.
The Importantest thing i miss is realy Mobile Internet (3G/4G/LTE)
This GPD Win is faster than my Windows10 Laptop in the Living Room ;)

And yes i would use it much because X86 Emulation/3DWindows Games
on Arm are a possible but everytime difficult to do.

I am realy dissapointed that EvilDragon do not sell Pyras with Exagear (Arm-2-X86 Emulator with 3D Functions)
That would be a nice Pyra Feature :(
I realy Like X86 :)

How did the Pyra cases look in person, specifically the colors? If we can get red, grey, and clear I don't know which one I will ask for, and it is hard to tell what they really look like in pictures.
I was fine with this Grey but Blue is nice too.
The Transparent Display can be realy bad when you let the Pyra one time lay in the Sun.
My Brother told me that many Computerchips are not good with Sun UV Rays.
The Transparent Case maybe make the Pyra faster broken?
Feelable no bad News from the Protype Case.

How did the surface of the Pyra feel with the texture? Did it feel nicer than a painted Pandora? Was either the Pyra or Win slippery in a way that it might be easy for it to fall out of your hands?
Definly yes.
This Textured Surface feel realy nice for me.
And my Hands where not sweating with it ;)

Which do you think looked nicer in person?
Difficult to Answer..you know that i am a Pandora Lover.
The GPD Win looked bit like a PSP Successor/new JXD Device with Windows and Keyboard.
Its modern and look nice too.
For the Younger Gamers will the GPD Win be realy fine with this Design.
Maybe some GPD Win Users will 3D print a nice Game Grip for it ;)
The Pyra do not need a Gamegrip and the Design is fine for me.

Did either of them seem to grab the attention of others more? (I actually prefer something that isn't flashy, and if possible I prefer it to look like it was made to do work on/with)
Shure most People who only wanted to play grab the GPD Win first because Minecraft was running.
We had no 3D Game running on the Pyra but there where many interressted Users too. ;)

Was it easier to read small text on one or the other?
For me both difficult to read.
We had maximized the DPI on the GPD Win up to 145% of original DPI Size and then it was fine.
On the Pyra the Same.
For what a 720p Display when the Texts are so Tiny?
Its only a Configuration Thing..i mean no Problem..only Software Things.
I whish me ever the Same Text Size and Icon Size like XFCE on the Pandora. ;)

Did one seem to have more vibrant colors on the display or look more clear?
No Vibrant Colours on both vissible for me.
Pyra Prototype seem to had the newer Touchscreen.

Ignoring the keyboard design and layout, did you think one of them felt nicer to push a key on? Did the Win keyboard feel like it would last four years of heavy typing?
The Keys itself on the GPD Win whered too Tiny for my.
On this Device i will type only the Importantest Things but not realy for Office :$

The Pyra Keyboard is not the Best for me because i love my Pandora Keyboard.
Shure its nice to have Backlight but its quite Differrent and Users who comes from the Pandora must first learn this newer Keyboard Layout.
After training and learning this new Keyboard Layout it should be no Problem for Heavy Terminal Typing and OpenOffice ;)
 

vcoleiro1

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Well, I'm still waiting for 3D etc to be fully working so that we can see some demanding games running on the Pyra. Only then can we see it's performance and if it also gets warm or if it thermally throttles under load.

I think that was the point of difference here, the WIN was being used to game all day, while the Pyra couldn't do that at Gamescom. Of course the WIN was going to be warm and the Pyra not. Plus it should be noted that the final production WIN is significantly different to the WIN ED had, particularly because of the improved heatsink, extra vents and fan. Not to mentioned a different SOC.

All in all, I'm going to wait until I see reviews of final units for the Pyra and WIN. Right now, judging either would be premature
 
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levi

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We have so much Software on the Repo...and that only with the Pandora.
To be fair, the vast majority of things on the repo are open source projects, and if you go to the project page, the vast vast majority of those have windows builds freely available. The only exceptions that come to mind are some commercial games (that aren't open source, but do have windows builds) and some important emulators from the likes of notaz and exophase, but most of everything else has been ported by ptitseb and a few others from open sources.

The Pandora still wins for me though because of notaz and exophase's work, and because most of the software can be downloaded simply from the repo, and mostly runs very well on my hardware.
 

EvilDragon

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I think that was the point of difference here, the WIN was being used to game all day, while the Pyra couldn't do that at Gamescom. Of course the WIN was going to be warm and the Pyra not.

No, not quite. The GPD Win gets hot after playing 3 - 4 minutes of Mirrors Edge, after 10 minutes it throttles.
That's why a fan is urgently needed.

I ran a stress test on the Pyra for 15 minutes (200% CPU, both cores clocked at 1GHz) and couldn't reach the temperature of the GPD Win.

The Pyra was at about 41°C while the GPD Win reaches 60°C after a few minutes.

Not surprising, as the CPU Power of the GPD Win is a lot higher and Intel hasn't been known to keep the CPUs cool. AFAIK, the Intel 3D GPU gets quite warm, which is the main issue.
We don't know about Pyras GPU yet, but as far as I know, PowerVRs are better optimized regarding heating.
 

FlapJack

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Good to hear. I was impressed that I could overclock my 1GHz Pandora to almost 1.3 and run all day with 1.2 as the preset clock speed. GC did a great job with my unit. I'd like to see the ability to overclock the Pyra when mine ships, so this is definitely good news to me.
 

vcoleiro1

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@ED, that all seems very surprising to me , especially after your initial post re temps of the Omap 5. I'm referring to your post 2 years back now where you mentioned the Omap 5 got sizzling hot. I know it was a while ago, but it's hard finding posts on it and things might be different now somehow
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/gamescom-shoulderbuttons-and-heating.74780/

You mentioned you thought this was a temp gauge error in the SOC so you resorted to IR SOC surface readings which are not the same thing as Grench pointed out,. Still, even with the lower IR readings, the measured load temp was 84 degrees C on the Omap 5 as you measured with the IR gun, 115C if measured from the SOC. Those temp readings from the SOC were not encouraging.

The GPD WIN now does have a better heatsink , air vents and a fan. Apparently GPD claim that under full load it doesn't exceed 79C , and the outside shell stays under 40C under full load. They are saying it can go flat out gaming without thermally throttling or getting uncomforatbly warm. We shall see though, as I said I won't believe anything until final independent reviews are done.

That all said, I'm not sure how what I initially said still doesn't hold, it sounds like from all reports that the WIN was gamed on while not much was happening on the Pyra, I still hold that of course one is going to feel warmer than the other in that specific circumstance. My point was in relation to an unfair comparison given the circumstances.

Also, 1Ghz?, I thought the max frequency for the Omap 5 is like 1.5 or 1.7 Ghz. Or is 1Ghz the max under full load.multi core ?
 
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ible

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well, if the omap reads at 41 celsius in the current Pyra, then the IR measurements would be even lower, so some of the further work must have helped? (or perhaps 41 celsius is an IR gun aimed at the outside of the Pyra case?)
 

FlapJack

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@vcoleiro1 - If you're referencing a post about the OMAP5 temp readings 2 YEARS AGO, then you needn't worry. It's a matter of working out the "kinks" and testing and retesting loads on the CPU and other areas of the board that they've built. If it needs additional cooling then I'd be surprised at this point. It can be passively cooled. If I can't overclock my Pyra? Then I just might drill some tiny holes and install a tiny fan myself. I really do like the modular design of this iteration. ARM cores just don't run near as hot as x86 Intel/AMD CPUs. I think we're okay here, better than most projects that promise the moon and won't deliver even a piece of green cheese.
 

tigerroast

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Also, 1Ghz?, I thought the max frequency for the Omap 5 is like 1.5 or 1.7 Ghz. Or is 1Ghz the max under full load.multi core ?

Read ED's Gamescom thread. He said that, due to a trace that shouldn't have been activated, the Pyra crashes at 1.5 GHz. Hence, the only way to run the Pyra was to underclock it. 1GHz was the chosen freq because it could demonstrate its power over the Pandora while still running all stable-like.

The problem will be fixed though.
 

vcoleiro1

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ARM SOCs can and do run hot, you only need to look at the Snapdragons (810 and 820) to see that. The latest phones with these SOCs have resorted to using heat pipes and the whole back metal case as the heatsink. They still have heat issues though.

@tigerroast, ah , thanks for that. So it wasn't a full load test, that will come later I suspect when the issue is fixed and we can get 1.5Ghz and not only 1Ghz.
 

TrashyMG

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Just with the cheap Heatsink on my OMAP5 devboard, it's not doing much at the moment... Something either happened, my replacement board runs really cool compared to my prior one, or Kernel/driver changes over the past couple years have improved things.

Code:
trashy@trashy-pyra:~/Downloads$ cat temp.sh 
#!/bin/bash

for i in /sys/class/thermal/thermal_zone*
do
    temp=$(<${i}/temp)
    t1=$((${temp}/1000))
    t2=$((${temp}/100))
    tt=$((${t2} % ${t1}))
    type=$(<${i}/type)
    echo ${type} ":" ${t1}"."${tt}"°C"
done

trashy@trashy-pyra:~/Downloads$ ./temp.sh 
cpu_thermal : 30.7°C
gpu_thermal : 33.3°C
core_thermal : 26.6°C
 

FlapJack

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Just with the cheap Heatsink on my OMAP5 devboard, it's not doing much at the moment... Something either happened, my replacement board runs really cool compared to my prior one, or Kernel/driver changes over the past couple years have improved things.

Code:
trashy@trashy-pyra:~/Downloads$ cat temp.sh
#!/bin/bash

for i in /sys/class/thermal/thermal_zone*
do
    temp=$(<${i}/temp)
    t1=$((${temp}/1000))
    t2=$((${temp}/100))
    tt=$((${t2} % ${t1}))
    type=$(<${i}/type)
    echo ${type} ":" ${t1}"."${tt}"°C"
done

trashy@trashy-pyra:~/Downloads$ ./temp.sh
cpu_thermal : 30.7°C
gpu_thermal : 33.3°C
core_thermal : 26.6°C

It's a combination of many factors. Tweaking the Kernal and drivers, figuring out ALL of M.Weston's work on the board(s) is necessary to getting the most out of this unit. Heat can be dissipated. The Pyra will be well-tested before most people see their units. It's just a dual core ARM CPU running at a nominal 1.5GHz....it's not a nuclear reactor.
 

vcoleiro1

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Just with the cheap Heatsink on my OMAP5 devboard, it's not doing much at the moment... Something either happened, my replacement board runs really cool compared to my prior one, or Kernel/driver changes over the past couple years have improved things.

Code:
trashy@trashy-pyra:~/Downloads$ cat temp.sh
#!/bin/bash

for i in /sys/class/thermal/thermal_zone*
do
    temp=$(<${i}/temp)
    t1=$((${temp}/1000))
    t2=$((${temp}/100))
    tt=$((${t2} % ${t1}))
    type=$(<${i}/type)
    echo ${type} ":" ${t1}"."${tt}"°C"
done

trashy@trashy-pyra:~/Downloads$ ./temp.sh
cpu_thermal : 30.7°C
gpu_thermal : 33.3°C
core_thermal : 26.6°C


I noticed you said it's not doing much. Can you run a full load stress test and measure temps and frequencies after 30 minutes?
Not sure if your board can be enclosed to mimic the Pyra case, if so that would be good to.

If you could , that would be awesome
 
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