gruso
thunderbox
Ok, I laughed.Pleng said:
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Put Us Out Of Our Misery!
- Thread starter gibberish
- Start date
mali
-
Oh shit, didn't get the connection 
Whatever, back to work..
Whatever, back to work..
renegadechic
Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2008
- Messages
- 787
not sure, i am just hoping that people with a whole lot to offer the community like torpor dont get trolled out of the project by asshats. i am problem more excited about his possible future input than pretty much any other developer on here. i am far more inclined to listen to someone with someone planning to give value back to the community than people who wont give back anything other than bitching about what they're owedmali said:
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craigix
Mega GP Mania
Because you have a sense of humour.Gruso said:
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torpor
hack hack hack, the little machines fight back
I'm not going anywhere .. I can't wait to get my Pandora and get some serious music-making software working on it. It sure has been enlightening watching the masses react to the open nature of the project, though .. imagine if we didn't even know who Craig was: that would be "normal" for a project like this. The fact that every single bit of stinky laundry is instantly available for us to comment on has been tremendously enlightening, imho ..
Anyway, enough from me. Those who are rational and know whats at stake in this project are going to get along just fine.. those who aren't, and who are going to make lots of noise over even the slightest indiscretion .. well, lets just say they deserve the problems they get. I'm not unhappy about my deposit on the Pandoras I'll receive; I know they're coming and they're going to be awesome.
Anyway, enough from me. Those who are rational and know whats at stake in this project are going to get along just fine.. those who aren't, and who are going to make lots of noise over even the slightest indiscretion .. well, lets just say they deserve the problems they get. I'm not unhappy about my deposit on the Pandoras I'll receive; I know they're coming and they're going to be awesome.
peca
Active Member
For us foreigners it's more about understanding English. I really don't get this joke. It is some idiom or so?craigix said:
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mali
-
It's funny because the discussion also mentioned Craig calling someone else gay
I agree, if you aren't a native English speaker you have to look twice sometimes.
I agree, if you aren't a native English speaker you have to look twice sometimes.
Poem58
Active Member
If we didn't know who Craig was and get the updates from the team, and just had silence, the project would have collapsed by now. Sony couldn't sell you a PSP and tell you it ould ship aon XXXX date then not ship, say nothing, and expect people to wait. I see both sides of this argument. I have taken issue with the way Craig has handled a few things, and like mentioned above, sometimes the humor is hard to translate in forum posts. It's a learning process for us all. I wouldn't want to back out of the project, but I doubt I will ever do this kind of thing again.
The pay and wait thing that is, but truth be told, once I have my Pandora, years down the line if Pandora 2 is announced under pay and wait, I will hesitate, but I just may do it anyway. After all, if I paid for the Pandora and despite delays receive it, then Craig and Co. have lived up to their obligation and I cannot fault them. I think the only fault can be in the maner in which this was handled. Having had no experience with Craig or any other team member having NOT been a gp2x or gp32 owner, I have had to learn about them as this has gone along. I now know the general mentality of the posting members, and I have come to terms with them and accept what I have gotten myself in to. Others do have a right to decide to leave and express why, and I have no right to tell them they are wrong any more than they are right to say I'm wrong for staying.
I give Kyosys credit in that. he explained his reasoning when asked to and was prepared to move on. I think this thread was interesting but now might be going round in circles. I still just hope the case manufacturing and assembly/shipping go smoothly so we can just put this al behind us and get to the fun. I really do believe it will make all of this go away and very quickly. We all have faults, it's hard to deal with them at times, true. However, I wouldn't hold anyone accountable for too many faults unless repeated. That is when someone really can be said to be wrong. When they fail to learn from mistakes and keep on doing them.
I'm sure the whole team will make sure things go very different from now on. Having learned from all of this. We need to find the humor again before the stress breaks us all. This project has been a learning lesson for me as well. I never know all the things it takes to do this until now and I for one am glad I am not running the project. I have a feeling by now I'd be hated by some people too. Which is probably why I have never taken the initiative to do this. I had the idea years ago, but never pursued it. Which is why I have to give some slack to those who were willing to take the risk. So I guess what I'm saying is for the team or for us, damned if you do, damned if you don't. But Pandora's in hands will heal all wounds.
The pay and wait thing that is, but truth be told, once I have my Pandora, years down the line if Pandora 2 is announced under pay and wait, I will hesitate, but I just may do it anyway. After all, if I paid for the Pandora and despite delays receive it, then Craig and Co. have lived up to their obligation and I cannot fault them. I think the only fault can be in the maner in which this was handled. Having had no experience with Craig or any other team member having NOT been a gp2x or gp32 owner, I have had to learn about them as this has gone along. I now know the general mentality of the posting members, and I have come to terms with them and accept what I have gotten myself in to. Others do have a right to decide to leave and express why, and I have no right to tell them they are wrong any more than they are right to say I'm wrong for staying.
I give Kyosys credit in that. he explained his reasoning when asked to and was prepared to move on. I think this thread was interesting but now might be going round in circles. I still just hope the case manufacturing and assembly/shipping go smoothly so we can just put this al behind us and get to the fun. I really do believe it will make all of this go away and very quickly. We all have faults, it's hard to deal with them at times, true. However, I wouldn't hold anyone accountable for too many faults unless repeated. That is when someone really can be said to be wrong. When they fail to learn from mistakes and keep on doing them.
I'm sure the whole team will make sure things go very different from now on. Having learned from all of this. We need to find the humor again before the stress breaks us all. This project has been a learning lesson for me as well. I never know all the things it takes to do this until now and I for one am glad I am not running the project. I have a feeling by now I'd be hated by some people too. Which is probably why I have never taken the initiative to do this. I had the idea years ago, but never pursued it. Which is why I have to give some slack to those who were willing to take the risk. So I guess what I'm saying is for the team or for us, damned if you do, damned if you don't. But Pandora's in hands will heal all wounds.
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WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
- Messages
- 16,731
Can't remember how many times I've said some form of this, but "Failure to identify a problem now guarantees you will have the same problem in the future".torpor said:
It won't change a thing RIGHT NOW, but if you refuse to even discuss the issue, it'll just come up again, and again, and again. Maybe Kyosis et al have a point and instead of arguing that complaints don't help right now, think about how they can be used to improve things before the next round of preorders.
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rohezal
Advanced Member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2009
- Messages
- 1,712
You guys are a bit strange...
Don't know why, but it seems you are don't see difference between Craigx behavior and the behavior of one your friends helping you repairing your car. Or a newspaper boy who doesn't deliver your payed magazin.
Look he has started a big project. Developing a system with a complex System on Chip with a custom Linux is a big and hard project. Taking community wishes (keyboard, nubs etc.) in it makes it harder, so it needs more time to finish. Most people who working for it (Ari, pickles etc.) aren't payed. It's mostly open source and people can come and go. There are no contracts and the core team has communicate with the people and motivate them. They are living around the whole world. He has just a small core team. Alls this means the project needs more time and unforseen things (like problems) can appear. He and other have taken a big credit to do this and worked hard for this projekt. So it's understandable if the 100th kid appears who is crying, he says " stop stealing my time, just cancel and let me finish the work on the pandora, my future depends on it".
There are a lot of things he had to manage (getting the credit, find cheap and good production companies, getting the boards with the SoC, getting the numbs, quality checks, phoning with the company, getting a translator for china). There are many things which can go wrong. I don't thing he had done something big like this before. Of course problems appeared they were solved, even if some solutions took a long time.
It was great work. And for someone who did it the first time (espacilly the china part) it worked very well. There are in almost every project problems with the timeline. The last 20% of the project takes 80% of the project time, the coding books say. There are many problems appeared whoch killed the release date. And craigx was quite open about it. But he had serious work to do and didn't answer every "i want the pandora now or i'm going to cancel thread". And he can't give information until he got the information himself, like that the chinese factory did a fast prototype with recycled material. So sometimes you just need to wait.
But sometimes he was plainly wrong was his statements. Estimate the release date, hoping that the chinese factory will deliver before CNY. And so on. But its not a lie (trying to trick someone) I think. It's just not correct estimation of the needed time. You don't lie if you saying lunch is ready in 30 minutes, but after 30 minutes you noticed that it need additional 10 minutes, because the potatos need to be cooked a bit longer. It's just a mistake. And everybody making mistakes because nobody is perfect.
This happends often in production. WarCraft 3 was released long after it was planned because the changed many things (RPG to Realtime Strategy).
StarCraft 2 is still pending. Because they improve it (like the pandora cases) to become a good game. This is not a lie, this is a wrong estimation of the needed time (everybody makes mistakes) and quality assurance.
Yes you have preordered the product. This means you have spend money and get product later. But it doesn't change the fact that developing a hardware and a software takes time and mostly takes more time because something is going wrong or takes longer then estimated. This is how developing and production of new products works. If you don't take the needed time, you got a buggy product like Gothic 3.
Cragix worked for years on these project. He had taken a big credit he have to pay. I think its ok, that he get paid for his hard work and get the money for the credit back. He has to pay bills and in the time where the pandora was developed he had less time for his work to earn the money for paying the bills. So it's fair that he get's the money to pay his bill because he worked for us.
I would be happy if it was real free project without any commercial background. But the people working on it have to pay the bills. If we could change the economy from capitalism to a "let machines produce the goods (and repairs themself) and everybody gets the machine products for free" I think we can start to develop realy free pandora, science, machines and software and etc.
Don't know why, but it seems you are don't see difference between Craigx behavior and the behavior of one your friends helping you repairing your car. Or a newspaper boy who doesn't deliver your payed magazin.
Look he has started a big project. Developing a system with a complex System on Chip with a custom Linux is a big and hard project. Taking community wishes (keyboard, nubs etc.) in it makes it harder, so it needs more time to finish. Most people who working for it (Ari, pickles etc.) aren't payed. It's mostly open source and people can come and go. There are no contracts and the core team has communicate with the people and motivate them. They are living around the whole world. He has just a small core team. Alls this means the project needs more time and unforseen things (like problems) can appear. He and other have taken a big credit to do this and worked hard for this projekt. So it's understandable if the 100th kid appears who is crying, he says " stop stealing my time, just cancel and let me finish the work on the pandora, my future depends on it".
There are a lot of things he had to manage (getting the credit, find cheap and good production companies, getting the boards with the SoC, getting the numbs, quality checks, phoning with the company, getting a translator for china). There are many things which can go wrong. I don't thing he had done something big like this before. Of course problems appeared they were solved, even if some solutions took a long time.
It was great work. And for someone who did it the first time (espacilly the china part) it worked very well. There are in almost every project problems with the timeline. The last 20% of the project takes 80% of the project time, the coding books say. There are many problems appeared whoch killed the release date. And craigx was quite open about it. But he had serious work to do and didn't answer every "i want the pandora now or i'm going to cancel thread". And he can't give information until he got the information himself, like that the chinese factory did a fast prototype with recycled material. So sometimes you just need to wait.
But sometimes he was plainly wrong was his statements. Estimate the release date, hoping that the chinese factory will deliver before CNY. And so on. But its not a lie (trying to trick someone) I think. It's just not correct estimation of the needed time. You don't lie if you saying lunch is ready in 30 minutes, but after 30 minutes you noticed that it need additional 10 minutes, because the potatos need to be cooked a bit longer. It's just a mistake. And everybody making mistakes because nobody is perfect.
This happends often in production. WarCraft 3 was released long after it was planned because the changed many things (RPG to Realtime Strategy).
StarCraft 2 is still pending. Because they improve it (like the pandora cases) to become a good game. This is not a lie, this is a wrong estimation of the needed time (everybody makes mistakes) and quality assurance.
Yes you have preordered the product. This means you have spend money and get product later. But it doesn't change the fact that developing a hardware and a software takes time and mostly takes more time because something is going wrong or takes longer then estimated. This is how developing and production of new products works. If you don't take the needed time, you got a buggy product like Gothic 3.
Cragix worked for years on these project. He had taken a big credit he have to pay. I think its ok, that he get paid for his hard work and get the money for the credit back. He has to pay bills and in the time where the pandora was developed he had less time for his work to earn the money for paying the bills. So it's fair that he get's the money to pay his bill because he worked for us.
I would be happy if it was real free project without any commercial background. But the people working on it have to pay the bills. If we could change the economy from capitalism to a "let machines produce the goods (and repairs themself) and everybody gets the machine products for free" I think we can start to develop realy free pandora, science, machines and software and etc.
As I understand it many people preordered believing that this project exists as a business which is why they were charged VAT and had to make their payments to a limited company.
I find it hard to believe that Craig went into this project purely and wholly for the good of the community and did not originally forecast a reasonable profit at some point in the lifetime of this or the next Pandora. If at this stage they're actually making a loss of $20-30 on each unit then that is business.
Those who have never met him, but nevertheless consider him to be a "friend" because of his work on the Pandora should possibly also consider "donating" $20-30(+VAT) towards this project of his as he is losing out because he is doing a favour for you.
I and many others consider this to be purely a business transaction and would only hope to get the Pandora that I have paid for as soon as possible, but do wish him luck in making a profit in the future.
I find it hard to believe that Craig went into this project purely and wholly for the good of the community and did not originally forecast a reasonable profit at some point in the lifetime of this or the next Pandora. If at this stage they're actually making a loss of $20-30 on each unit then that is business.
Those who have never met him, but nevertheless consider him to be a "friend" because of his work on the Pandora should possibly also consider "donating" $20-30(+VAT) towards this project of his as he is losing out because he is doing a favour for you.
I and many others consider this to be purely a business transaction and would only hope to get the Pandora that I have paid for as soon as possible, but do wish him luck in making a profit in the future.
I think this response from DaveC covers why most of the OP team was involved in this project.
Many people who never just came from following a link via engadget, or had done some research probably would've realised this was about trying to make something that they felt the community wanted. Obviously try to make a bit from it, but that doesn't mean that was their primary reason was to make a lot of money out of it.
Please note, I'm not making any other statements apart from why they started the project! So please don't read anything else into this post apart from that (either way) please.
It was obviously set up as a business as I can't see how they would've been able to do it even if they didn't want to make a penny on it.DaveC said:I don't think anyone in the OP team is getting rich from this including me. I think the likely scenario is that we just wanted to make the perfect handheld and in the process get a little money from it to make all of the hard work worth it. No one is going to be a millionaire from this. It would be nice but no one of us is expecting that.Monk said:Ah - I don't think he's doing it just as a favour to us. I think he rather wants to earn an awful lot of money out of us, and those who will hopefully follow us. It's not our interest, but self interest that got Craig into this.
I don't see that as changing very much, but assigning Craig premature angelhood just seems SO very wrong
To much negativity for one day, I'm off to recover from this thread!
Many people who never just came from following a link via engadget, or had done some research probably would've realised this was about trying to make something that they felt the community wanted. Obviously try to make a bit from it, but that doesn't mean that was their primary reason was to make a lot of money out of it.
Please note, I'm not making any other statements apart from why they started the project! So please don't read anything else into this post apart from that (either way) please.
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Yep. And you HAVE to be a company to negotiate with all those other companies.
Asking TI as a single person without a company for a devboard would probably lead to no response from them.
Another reason is the risk of getting sued, etc.
If anything bad happens and one of the big players does sue you, you probably wouldn't like if it affects everything you own...
Asking TI as a single person without a company for a devboard would probably lead to no response from them.
Another reason is the risk of getting sued, etc.
If anything bad happens and one of the big players does sue you, you probably wouldn't like if it affects everything you own...
This site is funny to me.
I have been reading this topic with great enjoyment.
It is funny to see so many people say what i sad half a year ago.
Then i got completely slaughtered by the fan-boys & Pandora Hugger.
Also when i made some sceptical remarks i did got killed for making some spelling mistakes instead of feedback (o that is so weak).
I did tease them by being a little troll but that was not appreciated so i left it after a short time (was fun though).
Just in case somebody wonders i am not native English and i do have appalling writing skills i know.
Now i read remarks from Kyosys Posted 14 February 2010 - 09:25 PM (and others).
I can't agree more.
It is funny when i sad that Craig was a liar i got slammed.
Now there are not many guardians left for Craig.
It is funny to me that some still say he made the biggest risk with putting his house on the line.
Do you have prove of that i heard Craig say that but for me what Craig says is to positive ore just noise to ignore.
The OP team did get the money from prepaying people (i recon they needed a lone from the bank this customers lone is sneaky).
That people pay for the materials needed and that all the development was don is just a plain lie.
Most surprising to me is that it is not a down-payment of about 50% but he full whooping 100%.
That would not have been a real problem to me if delivered within let say 30 day's.
If no delivery money back.
A hilarious thing to me is that some of these Pandora customers calls OP stupid in paying the full amount to the Chinese Factory.
Well i am happy i am a sceptic i never put my money in.
I distrusted it when the so called bank fiasco happened.
For me it was prove to be a scam ore just a sign that these people did not have a sound business plan.
Well we know now it was the second.
Anyway i still hope the Pandora will arrive.
I really hope the OP amateurs will prevail.
I buy on when i can get my hands on one within a month of ordering.
At-least i did not lose my interest jet but is declining.
O and one major thing if the price does go up i will pass because it is not cutting edge anymore like 1.5 year ago.
Just in case people wonder i have been around on another name half a year ago but could not sign in i could not remember the password.
I also have been on Pandora press.
Have a nice day.
I have been reading this topic with great enjoyment.
It is funny to see so many people say what i sad half a year ago.
Then i got completely slaughtered by the fan-boys & Pandora Hugger.
Also when i made some sceptical remarks i did got killed for making some spelling mistakes instead of feedback (o that is so weak).
I did tease them by being a little troll but that was not appreciated so i left it after a short time (was fun though).
Just in case somebody wonders i am not native English and i do have appalling writing skills i know.
Now i read remarks from Kyosys Posted 14 February 2010 - 09:25 PM (and others).
I can't agree more.
It is funny when i sad that Craig was a liar i got slammed.
Now there are not many guardians left for Craig.
It is funny to me that some still say he made the biggest risk with putting his house on the line.
Do you have prove of that i heard Craig say that but for me what Craig says is to positive ore just noise to ignore.
The OP team did get the money from prepaying people (i recon they needed a lone from the bank this customers lone is sneaky).
That people pay for the materials needed and that all the development was don is just a plain lie.
Most surprising to me is that it is not a down-payment of about 50% but he full whooping 100%.
That would not have been a real problem to me if delivered within let say 30 day's.
If no delivery money back.
A hilarious thing to me is that some of these Pandora customers calls OP stupid in paying the full amount to the Chinese Factory.
Well i am happy i am a sceptic i never put my money in.
I distrusted it when the so called bank fiasco happened.
For me it was prove to be a scam ore just a sign that these people did not have a sound business plan.
Well we know now it was the second.
Anyway i still hope the Pandora will arrive.
I really hope the OP amateurs will prevail.
I buy on when i can get my hands on one within a month of ordering.
At-least i did not lose my interest jet but is declining.
O and one major thing if the price does go up i will pass because it is not cutting edge anymore like 1.5 year ago.
Just in case people wonder i have been around on another name half a year ago but could not sign in i could not remember the password.
I also have been on Pandora press.
Have a nice day.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2010
- Messages
- 11,411
You could also switch to Firefox or Google Chrome, which has built on spell checking features.
It's funny that your surprised by being slammed by "fan-boys & Pandora Hugger", yet you come to a forum populated by said people and expect them to agree with your inflammatory comments.
It's funny that your surprised by being slammed by "fan-boys & Pandora Hugger", yet you come to a forum populated by said people and expect them to agree with your inflammatory comments.
Monk
Caveman Ninja
DaveC said:
Personally, I suspect each person has their own reasons for being a part of the team, and even if they share the same reasons they will be weighted differently. If I can simplify your position slightly, it would seem that "doing a damn fine job" or "making a damn good handheld gaming device" is way, way higher than "making money". Which is great and, IMHO, credible from what I've seen. MWeston could easily be the same. I'm not so sure ED is even that interested in the money, but no-one is going to refuse the stuff, right?
ED comes across as a very sympathetic kind of guy - I can see me in the basement of a pub playing Blood Bowl (if I were younger perhaps, or we managed some nifty time travel) and ED being a difficult opponent. Faith I haven't really encountered, so only get the bad news vibes of (bad news "sticks" much harder than good news, or so it seems) so I have no take on his interest in this AT ALL. Craig - does not come across the same way to me and, apparently, some others. My mother used to tell me that if I couldn't say anything good, not to say anything at all. I too rarely take much of her advice,
This forum has the potential to amaze with adult, intelligent behaviour that exemplifies why we are right to call our species "civilised". It has done so numerous times, where differences have been resolved, quickly at that, simply by people behaving more reasonably than we usually see anywhere - especially on the semi-anonymous Internet. But this thread... sheesh. The depths to which some have sunk here is really saddening. We don't have to be like this. We CAN read someone of a differing opinion and either respond politely or not respond at all. We don't HAVE to resort to abuse.
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craigix
Mega GP Mania
cixelsyd said:
I'd love to see a project such as this managed by you.
That will never happen though will it? Because you are incapable of indulging in anything but trolling.
We all know you won't be back when the Pandora is shipped, enjoyed and in wide use. You will be off trolling another project, trying to upset the developers there instead, and at the end of your life, you can sit back and think how you wasted it with depressing skepticism and achieved bugger all.
I'll give you a little clap now, you can try to remember it then if you want to, clap clap clap.
Right, I must get on with my work now, cheerio.
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Monk
Caveman Ninja
TrashyMG said:
I think that should be "built-in spell checking"
but my tie-pin and grammer is terrible anyway.It's equally odd that someone is surprised that "trolling" is not appreciated - even only a little bit. Did I miss something? Are there forums that laud trolling?
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Monk
Caveman Ninja
craigix said:
It's official. craigix gave cixelsyd the clap.
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- Joined
- Jan 18, 2010
- Messages
- 11,411
Monk said:TrashyMG said:
I think that should be "built-in spell checking"
It's equally odd that someone is surprised that "trolling" is not appreciated - even only a little bit. Did I miss something? Are there forums that laud trolling?
Did you spell grammar purposely wrong to get me to come back?
I'm confused I need a break from these forums
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