Pay For Games On Pandora?

[Alpha2]

Now that you bring that up, I remember hearing at one time that the Pandora wouldnt include a MP3 player out of the box yet we've been seeing so many videos of the PrePro-Pandoras playing music and video to the point where I'd totally forgotten. Are those players still going to have to be downloaded or has a loop hole been discovered?

This talk of artistic works reminds me of the guy that wrote Pride and Prejudice And Zombies. It's the same book as Pride and Prejudice but with zombies added to it and it makes you wonder exactly what allows them to get away with it besides the fact that they actually credit the original author with a sub credit by the person that added anything zombie related.

It might have something to do with the fact that Pride and Prejudice was written in 1813.

A brief copyright primer:

Copyright is effectively a government-granted monopoly on the right to modify, reproduce & distribute a creative work. Theoretically, copyright always has an expiry date, after which time the work enters what's known as the public domain. You can do pretty much whatever you like with public domain works (except claim original authorship, for example) without paying a cent. Originally, copyright only covered a work for 14 to 21 years, before it reverted to the public domain; these days, it's author's-lifetime-plus-70-years in most places. (The rule of thumb being, every time the Mickey Mouse copyright gets close to expiring, another 20 years gets added on.) As a result, copyright can hardly be reasonably described as "for a limited duration" any more...

However -- regardless how you slice it legally, Pride and Prejudice has well and truly fallen into the public domain.
(As have the vast majority of stories and folk tales upon which Disney have based their animated films; but that's a bitter irony for another day.)

Yeah I hadnt realized just how old the original was (never read it myself) As for Mickey related material I think the disembodied brain of Disney floating in a jar under the magic kingdom castle would disagree about Mickey's expiration date, but I also seem to recall that as long as the material is republished by the copyright holder (ie disney inc.) they get an extension, which is why they keep pulling the old stuff out of the vault every so often. Or why comic companies bring back old characters randomly.

 

[Tom`]

Now that you bring that up, I remember hearing at one time that the Pandora wouldnt include a MP3 player out of the box yet we've been seeing so many videos of the PrePro-Pandoras playing music and video to the point where I'd totally forgotten. Are those players still going to have to be downloaded or has a loop hole been discovered?

Almost certainly going to have to be downloaded - they could ship the player without any of the patented codecs, but it would probably frustrate and confuse more people than just making them download the player in a format that can play everything.

 

[Exophase]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Write and sell an emulator for a platform people want to play that isn't already being offered. Actually, have zodttd sell it, you won't make money selling it yourself.

In my case, it's more that I agreed to have said emulator sold on Cydia and Android Marketplace and granted copyright of the source in exchange for half the profits. But that's a technicality. You might consider me more money grubbing than them for this, really. On the other hand, I don't really think The Good of Mankind is being diminished with this one, given that all of my emulators are more passing specializations than long term preservation projects. I think if I were at the forefront of emulating something I'd be more likely to make open at least the non-performance optimized implementations. At the very least I'd share information.

Actually, that's not really a bad idea for upcoming emulators.. but I'm still really uncomfortable with people forking my stuff, which is just a personal problem for me. But for every personal or political issue people have against making something open source I guarantee you someone else has another personal or political issue for forking something open source. It's a two-way street that I don't think all open source proponents recognize.

 

[second exodous]

This thread is going every where but this is the first time I've read it. I want to comment on what has been stated a few time that people that play emulators are the kind of people that won't pay for games. I don't agree with this at all as I myself play emulators with roms that I don't own and I buy games all the time.

First off I want to say when someone asks me if I pirate games I say 'no' right off the bat not thinking of all the roms I play. I know it's wrong but the roms I do play are games that are not currently sold in the format I'm emulating them in, i.e. NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, basically retired systems. Now, I don't pirate these games because I don't want to pay for them but because they are not easily obtained anymore. If there was a service for a console or computer I use to get them and play them the way I do on an emulator I would pay for them. Yes, I now about Wii Ware and the services that Xbox and Playstation have but I've looked there and it's a joke for games of my youth. When I see games I like at used game shops I buy them but that doesn't go to the developers anyway.

Second thing I want to say is I do pay for games, both on my computer and for my DS. I don't pirate current games at all, I want to support the developers of games. Also, I'm a Linux user so I buy a lot of independent games that the developers took the time to port, by buying those games I feel like I'm supporting the Linux gaming scene and I would never pirate those games. I will do the same for the Pandora, I want it to be successful and want to see many games ported to it, so yes I'll buy games that are on the Pandora. Even PC games that I run though wine I buy, this isn't to support anyone but the developers.

So I play emulators but I still buy games. I think a lot of people are like this, not just me. Stating that anyone who plays emulators are not the kind of people that you want to depend on to pay for games is just false. There are many reasons for not playing legal copies of games and for me its a matter of obtaining legal copies, not wanting to play free games.

On the Pandora as long as the developer(s) make it easy to obtain the game and price it reasonably I think most Pandora owners will pay regardless if they have emulators installed. Also, looking at statistics some people are just dirty thieves; no matter how easy it is to get the game or how cheap it is some people will just steal it, period. I've seen some statistics that have as much as 50% of the people that play any given game is stolen regardless of DRM, price, or ease to obtain. Some people are just thieves, but I will pay even though I play roms.

 

[Trevsweb]

Second thing I want to say is I do pay for games, both on my computer and for my DS. I don't pirate current games at all, I want to support the developers of games. Also, I'm a Linux user so I buy a lot of independent games that the developers took the time to port, by buying those games I feel like I'm supporting the Linux gaming scene and I would never pirate those games. I will do the same for the Pandora, I want it to be successful and want to see many games ported to it, so yes I'll buy games that are on the Pandora. Even PC games that I run though wine I buy, this isn't to support anyone but the developers.

i got out of buying PC computer games because the specs were always so random and it was a pain in the ass to get a standard set of requirements at that time i didnt always have.
now moved onto xbox 360 which i follow. the games work, the console works and the online works... i support all developers if they provide me with the gaming i desire.
i have in the past followed other console current gen, xbox 360, xbox, wii, ps2, n64 and ps1

if I paid for games or emulators on the pandora i would demand the same quality i do from my xbox 360 game today... a port or rehash of an old game i dont think would cut it..
i think keeping with a donation style request or nag once in a while pushes the developer to improve their software to give better value and the community can bully each other into helping the developer.

one thing i wouldnt be happy with would be if
A) i was an early adopter and paid for a program for a week later it drops in price permenantly (not just in a sale)
B) pay to have improvements/ upgrades/ fixing bugs etc I would only pay for expansion packs. or a major addon.

 

[valhalla]

i would gladly pay for games where the author pledged to release the source code under a FOSS licence after some conditions such as earning X on the game, sales dropping below a certain threshold or after a few years. I would also (less gladly) pay for good games with no such pledge, as long as they don't include DRM.

I wouldn't pay for (non FOSS) apps, however, because I don't want to depend on proprietary software for my data and productivity. I could be willing to pay a small amount for a pnd version of a FOSS app that proved hard do package, but that depends on the app and the availability of other similar ones.

On the Stallman/FSF debate: their position is not the pragmatic one as most FOSS supporters have, they fill the niche of the extremist that don't compromise and strive for an unattainable goal so that everybody else can get the benefits of a better compromise position.

 

[lennaick]

Add this option and I'll be able to vote.

- Yes, i am willing to pay to get games of higher quality under FOSS licence.

 

[iprice]

Yes, i am willing to pay to get games of higher quality under FOSS licence.

Why should developers feel obligated to release their source code?

A game or app can take many hundreds of hours to develop and you might be able to buy that game for a couple of pence to a couple of pounds or so and you still feel short-changed and that you may somehow be entitled to the source as well? Goes to show how spoilt people are nowadays...

 

[Sugar_Kane]

Personally I am perfectly willing to pay for everything as long the prices are realistic. For instance, a 59p/£1.19 game/app on the Iphone is exactly at the right level to be a 'why not' purchase for anything that you like the look of but aren't sure about.

 

[PokeParadox]

My personal opinion is this... Most software I would release as donation-ware so that someone has the option of giving back a little something in a convenient manner if they should choose so.
If I create something that is really really great then what is wrong if I charge a reasonable price for it?

Basically, in my case, every little helps since I'm still stuck in a crappy min. wage job and anything to cover "pizza and coffee" or go towards hosting costs etc is appreciated.

I see nothing wrong if a "bedroom coder" decides to charge for something of quality but at the sametime I understand the fears that ALL software is going to turn into paid software... I also hope that won't happen. I hope we continue to see some great software for Pandora of both free and paid variants and we should try and show support for those that deserve it.

 

[SomeGuy99]

I have and I'd be willing to donate to some open source projects if they interested me. I would not pay money for any closed source software on the Pandora.

Not even for seemingly impossible things, like a half-decent x86 or Dreamcast Emulator?

Let's be very hypothetical and assume they exist, and they're sitting there in the Pandora App Store. They're gathering more and more positive reviews, because let us assume they work incredibly well. Why do they work so well? Well perhaps a few guys dedicated their entire life to those projects for a year or more. They dedicated so much time, it was practically a full time job for them.

Let's say nobody else will dedicate that amount of time. These programs are the only choice you have. You wait around for a few months, but no free alternatives are showing up. You either pay for these apps, or you don't run Windows or Dreamast games on your Pandora.

Now... would you still not pay for a Pandora app? Are you sure? Half the guys on this forum already have. They're having great fun, posting videos of Windows and Dreamcast all over Youtube, getting the Pandora loads of attention. More and more outsiders are becoming interested, buying into the Pandora. Every week you see more and more newcomers having fun with these programs, and you're on the outside. You don't give in to peer pressure, you stick to your 'Free and Open Source' principals... you're voting with your wallet, you're saying no to paid emulators. But everyone else... they're having so much fun... don't you deserve some fun too? Wasn't that why you bought a Pandora? To have fun? Is it really so bad to let yourself have fun too?

So... you're only one bank account number away from all that fun. Can you really resist? Really?

B)

 

[WizardStan]

So... you're only one bank account number away from all that fun. Can you really resist? Really?

Speaking as someone who has said "I will not buy this software which does something I am morally opposed to no matter how excited I was to get it before I found out about this thing I'm against and no matter how much fun everyone else is having" I can safely say that I would have no problem resisting, if I were strongly against paying for emulators. I'm not, but if I was I would realize that these are just two apps. Awesome apps to be sure, but still just two out of thousands. There should be no shortage of things to play and do once the community gets going, even if you are opposed to paying for anything.

 

[LeChuck87]

my 5 cents: i pay for games/apps if they're worth it. if not i don't use them... and that's not limited to the pandora. every dev should decide on their own to charge for it...

(damn, i got torchlight for 8 euro's on steam! good game, totally worth it... also the humble indie bundle was a good investion..)

 

[Exophase]

Some people won't use software at all if it's not GPL compatible, regardless of whether or not it costs money. That's certainly their prerogative.

Drawing that line for paid software instead of non-pay seems more arbitrary.

Trying to make money off of software that's GPL compatible and doesn't rely on some sold assets (like an emulator as opposed to a game) is kind of a joke. You can't seriously expect someone else to not redistribute it for free. Or at least you shouldn't be able to; on some platforms it seems this is prevented by having next to no one who's actually willing to compile software for it. But Pandora won't be such a platform.

valhalla's pledge to open idea is more realistic.

 

[SomeGuy99]

So... you're only one bank account number away from all that fun. Can you really resist? Really?

Speaking as someone who has said "I will not buy this software which does something I am morally opposed to no matter how excited I was to get it before I found out about this thing I'm against and no matter how much fun everyone else is having" I can safely say that I would have no problem resisting, if I were strongly against paying for emulators. I'm not, but if I was I would realize that these are just two apps. Awesome apps to be sure, but still just two out of thousands. There should be no shortage of things to play and do once the community gets going, even if you are opposed to paying for anything.

True, but for me a 'Killer App' has a way of getting inside my head, breaking down all barriers until there's nothing to stop me from getting it.

I have a feeling that a natural balance will emerge. Maybe something really worthy will set a precedent, I can see Pandora types boycotting a general move towards pay-for-everything. Hopefully we'll end up in a stable situation where really amazing stuff is sometimes commercial, but most stuff is free. Don't forget, really techy types like us can be quite picky. Unless the Pandora becomes insanely popular amongst the mainstream, the balance should be a perfect fit. Even if that were to happen, i'm sure we'd fork another App-Store to avoid the trashy official one.

 

[Alpha2]

I have and I'd be willing to donate to some open source projects if they interested me. I would not pay money for any closed source software on the Pandora.

Not even for seemingly impossible things, like a half-decent x86 or Dreamcast Emulator?

Let's be very hypothetical and assume they exist, and they're sitting there in the Pandora App Store. They're gathering more and more positive reviews, because let us assume they work incredibly well. Why do they work so well? Well perhaps a few guys dedicated their entire life to those projects for a year or more. They dedicated so much time, it was practically a full time job for them.

Let's say nobody else will dedicate that amount of time. These programs are the only choice you have. You wait around for a few months, but no free alternatives are showing up. You either pay for these apps, or you don't run Windows or Dreamast games on your Pandora.

Now... would you still not pay for a Pandora app? Are you sure? Half the guys on this forum already have. They're having great fun, posting videos of Windows and Dreamcast all over Youtube, getting the Pandora loads of attention. More and more outsiders are becoming interested, buying into the Pandora. Every week you see more and more newcomers having fun with these programs, and you're on the outside. You don't give in to peer pressure, you stick to your 'Free and Open Source' principals... you're voting with your wallet, you're saying no to paid emulators. But everyone else... they're having so much fun... don't you deserve some fun too? Wasn't that why you bought a Pandora? To have fun? Is it really so bad to let yourself have fun too?

So... you're only one bank account number away from all that fun. Can you really resist? Really?

B)

You might be missing one other choice there too.
"is there a way to get it without paying?"
If there's a way, someone's going to find it, eventually.

 

[SomeGuy99]

Or at least you shouldn't be able to; on some platforms it seems this is prevented by having next to no one who's actually willing to compile software for it. But Pandora won't be such a platform.

valhalla's pledge to open idea is more realistic.

Is that why there's a proliferation of paid emulators for Symbian and Mac OSX? I always figured it was a combination of market demand and niche coding platform.

I'm referring to:

http://www.vampent.com/emu.htm
http://www.bannister.org/software/

 

[SomeGuy99]

You might be missing one other choice there too.
"is there a way to get it without paying?"
If there's a way, someone's going to find it, eventually.

I didn't state it out of politeness, but I was thinking about it.

Back in '99-2000 I was pirating Pocket PC games. There was a niche black-market for this kind of thing, and it all happened on an IRC channel on Efnet where people were trading files. Although small, it was a proper scene with teams cracking software and all the rest.

Expecting a blackmarket not turn up within this community is... naive. It'll be going on somewhere.

 

[WizardStan]

Expecting a blackmarket not turn up within this community is... naive. It'll be going on somewhere.

As I understand it, the few commercial games that ended up on the GP2X were eventually available via piracy and the people that did it were heavily shunned by the rest of the community. Like pitchforks and torches kind of shunned. Expecting it to not happen is naive, but so long as the community at large refuses to tolerate such behaviour it should be ok.

 

[SomeGuy99]

Expecting a blackmarket not turn up within this community is... naive. It'll be going on somewhere.

As I understand it, the few commercial games that ended up on the GP2X were eventually available via piracy and the people that did it were heavily shunned by the rest of the community. Like pitchforks and torches kind of shunned. Expecting it to not happen is naive, but so long as the community at large refuses to tolerate such behaviour it should be ok.

I see your point. But how many people will simply not admit to that piracy?

I've noticed quite a few of the people who ordered a Pandora are fairly young and lacking in disposable income. They're like I was when I bought a Pocket PC (for almost exactly the same amount of money that a Pandora order was) for more money than they really had, and don't have any left over to pay for software.

But having said that, at the time I was regularly going out and spending £30 on Gameboy Color games. I was also downloading roms to run on Snes emulators under Windows 98. I also had an N64 and later a Dreamcast and was spending a lot of money on second-hand games (where nothing goes to the developer). So you see, I was both a pirate, a new game consumer, a second-hand game consumer and a retro-gamer all at the same time. It's not black and white, is it?

For the record, I totally support commercial games on the Pandora. I want brilliant software on my dream machine. And I'm older, and pragmatic enough to know that only money attracts outside developers.

I wouldn't pirate any Pandora games or software. At all.