Pandora Pandora-psp

[atomicthumbs]

Because of all the crazy awesomeness going around, I feel that I should create a new impossible 'goal' - any playable gamecube game with the open source dolphin emulator http://code.google.com/p/dolphin-emu/

Dolphin barely works on my computer, with a 9800GTX+, 3GB of RAM and a 2.1ghz Athlon 64 X2 4000+. It will not work on the Pandora.

 

[lulzfish]

Because of all the crazy awesomeness going around, I feel that I should create a new impossible 'goal' - any playable gamecube game with the open source dolphin emulator http://code.google.com/p/dolphin-emu/

that's too impossible! I want a Pentium emu so I can play Rock Raiders.

 

[Mqark]

I hate to sound ungrateful, and I really am honestly impressed by the skills of the programmer undertaking this challenge and have great respect for him, but….

I think this is a terrible development for the Pandora.

We shouldn’t be indirectly condoning supporting such obvious piracy on a fledgling machine. The PSP is a current gen machine that is still very much alive and kicking. Most of the other emulators being developed or ported to the Pandora are for machines that are long gone and are not necessarily practical to own / operate and the argument about owning ROMs/ISO’s for those machines is less heated.
I’ve still yet to meet anyone that has as many arcade PCB’s or machines as they do MAME roms or complete SNES romsets and a handful of real cartridges for example. Please don’t try to insult my intelligence by claiming that you only ever play the games you have a physical copy of. We all support piracy in one way or another, however I’d like to think I only do it out of a practical or financial necessity – not through greed. I’ve owned 50 different games machines in my time and know that I’ve supported the industry well and still do with my 360, PSP, PS3 and DS. But what I wouldn’t do is download and play games for a machine I don’t own / haven’t owned because there is an emulator and freely accessible pirated games that I can play on a different machine.

There is no way that if you claim you have the rights to copy a PSP game that you legally ‘own’ and have done, that you can’t then play that game on an actual PSP. Unless your machine is broken, then WTF… just buy a new one. It’s going to be cheaper than buying a Pandora!
There is no valid argument such as “Well, the Pandora lets me play PSP games and do so much more…” because this is the same as saying “the Pandora lets me play pirated games and deprive the developers and Sony of any potential revenue they may have earned if I’d gotten of my arse and actually bought a PSP – oh, and it lets me run Linux”.

This is such a worrying development for the Pandora that I’d be surprised if Sonys lawyers weren’t out to find a way to get an injunction against OpenPandora to try to stop the port from appearing on the machine. Just remember what happened to Lik-Sang. Whether a machine, piece of software, mod chip contains copyrighted code or directly or indirectly supports or enables piracy is almost irrelevant these days when the financial power of a giant like Sony goes up against the little guys like Lik-Sang or OpenPandora. Whether you are technically right or wrong in the eyes of the law doesn’t matter when you can’t afford to fight a court case.

It’s clear that I’m not saying that I haven’t played pirated games on all systems. However I try to do it in the fairest possible way of only doing it for machines that aren’t being officially sold or supported anymore and that the games aren’t freely available without trawling through second-hand shops or on eBay (in which case they’ve already been sold once and the developers / publishes get no additional revenue for).

Flame away…

 

[arrrgh]

Sony can only sue JayFoxRox, not OpenPandora.

 

[Bosbeetle]

wow I go away for a week I come back and then this happens, this is really great

 

[Mqark]

Sony can only sue JayFoxRox, not OpenPandora.

Sony sued Lik-Sang who weren't the producers of the mod-chips in question but the suppliers.

If the Pandora port is being compiled specifically to run on Pandora then they may have a way of attacking OpenPandora - however, it's my understanding that a Pandora binary will run on similar Linux distributions on Arm processors. As long as there's nothing taht makes this port specifically tied to Pandora then they would have to go after the originator of the code as you rightly say. And that then brings us to Bleem! which Sony didn't win their case against - but as I mentioned they just used their financial clout to bully them into submission.

 

[lulzfish]

"Whether you are technically right or wrong in the eyes of the law doesn’t matter when you can’t afford to fight a court case."

Wait, you mean justice isn't the one where the big guy wins due to bureaucratic inefficiencies?

I know logic doesn't apply to justice, but given the amount of emulation done on x86 / Windows systems, I don't think there would be any real case against a high-powered Linux handheld that just happened to have a number of quality third-party emulators that just happen to play illegal game images.

And I don't think OP intend to distribute the emus themselves anyway, to avoid such legal problems.

edit: Lik-Sang was distributing hardware that specifically subverted console DRM. The Pandora is just a computer, anything illegal is an issue of the software.

 

[paolo]

I hate to sound ungrateful, and I really am honestly impressed by the skills of the programmer undertaking this challenge and have great respect for him, but….

I think this is a terrible development for the Pandora.

[..omissis...]

Flame away…

the word "proof of concept" rings you a bell?
some people likes to learn how to do things regardless if this turns useful or not, like being able to lockpick, or to do card magic tricks. You're right, many people WILL use this emulator to run downloaded iso images, but what the hell, I do have a psp, I did some homebrews, and I will contribute if in my powers to this project because it is simply cool and smart. I wouldn't make such a drama on it, it's likely sony will earn money and popularity from that the same way it does by relasing their custom firmwares under the covert name of some hackers (I really believe they do this way, it's impossible they decipher and recompile *every* official-firmware in a couple of days otherwise, but this is another story).
On my opinion (completely valueless) psp and psp-slim are about to become obsolete, it's time for a ps3 portable, with cellphone functions etc. So in an year or two the psp is going to be vintage like the ps2 is (almost).
Just my opinion.

 

[Alpha2]

WHile we all take part in some form of poracy around here' it's not impossible to think that maybe there are some people who chose not to go whole hog and pirate everything. We all have different moral codes.

Personally I havent bought a single DS game in the last 2 years but I buy every PSP game I play even though I have a Homebrew capable PSP I could play eboots on. I wanted it originally so I could play eboots of the PS1 games I own that Sony hasn't been able to post on the playstation store for download (since I own them already it dosent make sense to buy them a second time, so I want to convert and play what I own on the go.) I probably would have no use for the PSP emulator if it ever does become playable, but that dosent mean I'd discourage a programer who wants to see if it can be done for the sake of his own curiousity because if it weren't for that type of interest we wouldnt have half the emulators we play today.

It's not a flame, I'm sure there are plenty of other people who wouldnt use it either, it's about seeing what can be done...

The Pandora is marketed as being a opensource handhelf game/entertainment device with keyboard and gaming controls. Not as a PSP killer or what ever, the fact that it might play PSone or even PSP games is only because of the coders that chose to make it do suchthings, Sony can no more sue the Pandora or the team any mroe than they can sue Micro$oft for allowing PS1 and PS2 emulators on windows, even less so because of the open source nature.

 

[arrrgh]

Personally I never download ROMs for a game I don't own.
Also, although I won't be using the PSP or Dreamcast emulators, they will generate a lot of interest - I think that OpenPandora is going to be getting plenty of orders from people from the DC community. However, I'm sort of worried - will people go around on PSP forums and start trolling about the PSP emulator?

 

[Mqark]

I'm glad we're all having a reasonable adult discussion regarding this, it's so refreshing to see that happen on a subject that could be so heated! Maybe the trolls haven’t woken up yet

I'm just trying to raise a concern that this could put a slightly negative spin on the Pandora experience - it shouldn't. There's no negative aspect to owning a personal desktop computer of any flavor OS just because it can run an emulator, but then those machines aren't being pitched as gaming portables either which could be considered direct competition to the machine that’s being emulated – but not as a clone where you can play the physical media (which would require a reversed engineered BIOS) but an emulation.

I really hope I'm just being unduly pessimistic - as I say, it's a great engineering challenge to emulate a PSP and I respect that. People are going to expect commercial games to be run on it though just as they are for NullDCe.

 

[conso]

Ahm... I thought it is possible to play pirated games directly on a psp (I don't own one, but that's what I've heared), so what's the difference? Well, the only difference is probably that the psp can run those games better.

I own more then 100 non-pirated games for Dreamcast and the same for my Genesis. If I can only run a subset of them on the pandora, I'd be very very busy If there is a psp-emulator for Pandora, I will definatly buy the games that are well supported, though probably used ones, if only for putting them in my physical collection. Imho, psp-games are often 100x more worth their money then DS games.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Yea... and as well as there being a PSP emulator that *could* play illegal games, there is also a web browser that *could* be used to browse to illegal web pages, so we better remove the browser. Let us not forget the email client that *could* be used to send illegal emails, better get rid of that quick, before the FBI come round...

Of course the Pandora *could* be used as a lethal weapon, so maybe we better put the hardware dev's in jail now for conspiracy to murder...

Steve

 

[Gilrad]

In some countries, the laws are really much more on the side of the big companies, and the rule is "if it can be put into a perspective that looks dangerous to the company's assets, the courts will see it as dangerous".

The pandora could easily be spun as an unlicensed PSP, where users can play games without paying for them, and the OP crew can sell such hardware without paying licensing fees to Sony. The difference the Pandora has to a sufficiently powerful PC is that it competes in the same market as the PSP (handheld gaming)

Here in Japan, for example, the creator to a filesharing program was fined the equivelant of around $30,000 and put in prison for one year for "aiding software piracy".

Of course, it is all a matter of the UK's policies on pressure from international companies (OP is stationed in Britain, right?). Since I doubt that government has such policies themselves (and not to mention the fact that, by the time the psp emulation project gets really going, Sony will probably be caring more about the PSP2), I don't think there is any legal worries here.

 

[JayFoxRox]

First of all, thanks for all the wishes so far.
Here is my point of view on the legal issue:

There are a handful of PSP-Emulators already and some even play commercial games, yet Sony didn't do anything at all. There were PS2 emulators around on the PC which is a comparable platform when the PS2 was still selling like hot-cakes - and it still does.
All of those PSP-Emulators can be used on portable devices like Notebooks and Netbooks which are becoming more and more similar to the PSP - Sony doesn't care.
And aslong this project isn't out there shouldn't be anything to worry about.
From another hardware point of view you could even say that it was not only made for Pandora but all ARM / OMAP3 devices - so the argument that it is on a similar device is no longer valid.
From the software point of view you could just say that this is software to aid the development - some sort of test framework.
Another point is that there are more than 50 million PSPs around the world, but only about 5000 Pandoras. The loss for Sony would be extremly small. But not even every Pandora user will use this emulator. So why would Sony care?
There is almost no loss for Sony. A working emulator doesn't mean that none of the users won't buy a PSP neither - I own 2 PSPs (one beeing a 1000 another one beeing a 2000) alot of accessories and a few games.
Just stop talking about the legal issue, its not necessary I think (I hope).

I planned to post later when I have more to show because I just finished to implement most FPU calls but I wanted to stop the offtopic talk right now - I hope to have some pics or videos from the emulator part of the project today or tomorrow.

PS: I don't use any of Sonys code or so. Not a single bit - no bios dumps, or so.

 

[Gilrad]

First of all, thanks for all the wishes so far.
Here is my point of view on the legal issue:

There are a handful of PSP-Emulators already and some even play commercial games, yet Sony didn't do anything at all. There were PS2 emulators around on the PC which is a comparable platform when the PS2 was still selling like hot-cakes - and it still does.

Like I said before, the difference with the Pandora is that it can be seen as more directly competing with Sony's hardware. There is a big difference between a $1,000 stationary computer or even a laptop, with a million different configurations each offered from different companies and a $99 PS2, and the Pandora, a single, ~$350 unit built and developed by a single identifiable company and the relatively similarly priced PSP.

Also, it should be noted that the environment has been changing relatively recently thanks to Piracy. Just take a look at Nintendo five years ago and Nintendo today in terms of actions against hardware that allows piracy. While many forward-thinking companies are evolving with this post-piracy environment, many Japanese companies are lashing out and panicking by trying to solve the problem the old-fashioned way--legal action.

QUOTE
All of those PSP-Emulators can be used on portable devices like Notebooks and Netbooks which are becoming more and more similar to the PSP - Sony doesn't care.

Key word here is becoming, as in, we haven't reached that point yet where they are similar, and where they can play PSP games. Also, see above point about ease of targeting.

QUOTE
And aslong this project isn't out there shouldn't be anything to worry about.

That's my main point I made. Shouldn't really be a problem, though it would be worth researching into how Sony managed to force Lik-sang to go under; isn't the latter a China-based company? I don't know how they did it, but if the method used can also apply to OP, it would be smart to keep a "plan B" in mind in case they get targeted.

QUOTE
Another point is that there are more than 50 million PSPs around the world, but only about 5000 Pandoras. The loss for Sony would be extremly small. But not even every Pandora user will use this emulator. So why would Sony care?
There is almost no loss for Sony. A working emulator doesn't mean that none of the users won't buy a PSP neither - I own 2 PSPs (one beeing a 1000 another one beeing a 2000) alot of accessories and a few games.
Just stop talking about the legal issue, its not necessary I think (I hope).


I guess the main qualifier I should use is, "looking forward". If the Pandora becomes a hit? It doesn't even have to be a "hit" in terms of PSP sales, just enough of one that the name OpenPandora stands out, enough to be a target. There's a good and bad side about being successful, and unfortunately one downside is that it can make you a target.


But anyway, I agree that we have gone wildly off topic. I do support the project, and I am quite amazed at what various devs have been saying is doable.

 

[paolo]

First of all, thanks for all the wishes so far.
Here is my point of view on the legal issue:

There are a handful of PSP-Emulators already and some even play commercial games, yet Sony didn't do anything at all. There were PS2 emulators around on the PC which is a comparable platform when the PS2 was still selling like hot-cakes - and it still does.
All of those PSP-Emulators can be used on portable devices like Notebooks and Netbooks which are becoming more and more similar to the PSP - Sony doesn't care.
And aslong this project isn't out there shouldn't be anything to worry about.
From another hardware point of view you could even say that it was not only made for Pandora but all ARM / OMAP3 devices - so the argument that it is on a similar device is no longer valid.
From the software point of view you could just say that this is software to aid the development - some sort of test framework.
Another point is that there are more than 50 million PSPs around the world, but only about 5000 Pandoras. The loss for Sony would be extremly small. But not even every Pandora user will use this emulator. So why would Sony care?
There is almost no loss for Sony. A working emulator doesn't mean that none of the users won't buy a PSP neither - I own 2 PSPs (one beeing a 1000 another one beeing a 2000) alot of accessories and a few games.
Just stop talking about the legal issue, its not necessary I think (I hope).

I planned to post later when I have more to show because I just finished to implement most FPU calls but I wanted to stop the offtopic talk right now - I hope to have some pics or videos from the emulator part of the project today or tomorrow.

PS: I don't use any of Sonys code or so. Not a single bit - no bios dumps, or so.

that's the point! sony does not face any income loss by piracy. I bought a ps2 and a psp plus some optionals like additional pads, cases, spare parts... and I bought those two for the unique reason they can be hacked to load isos. Don't dilly-dally on suppositions, Sony Computer Entertainment is almost completely careless about hacking software for their consoles as they are not involved in marketing them. Software houses pays SCE for distribution on sony platforms not vice versa. Hence, SCE should be very happy about downgranding & co. since an enourmous quantity of people like me bought them a console just for hacking while we would never ever have bought them otherwise.
Anyway I don't pretend to have truth in my pocket, but the facts shouldn't be that different...
Besides, Pandora handheld will never became such a treat for sce due to its very poor distribution and diffusion compared to psp and whatever other famous console

 

[Mithrildor]

lets keep this topic a bit quiet and dont start a discussion so we can see the actual updates when there are any?

Ty

 

[t3hmadhatt3r]

@ t3hmadhatt3r

What qualifies you to second guess the author of this emulator?

Have you also been developing a PSP emulator for the Pandora from the ground up too?

Hmm I think you took it the wrong way...In no means am I questioning or stating that he must use official sdk as I have never done anything like this.I was just making a comment, not a command.I'm sorry if it came across wrong.

 

[JayFoxRox]

<Moved to Pandora-PSP Blog>