Our New Machine, Pandora

[Exophase]

this was per correspondence I was provided during talks with GamePark regarding development of the XGP series (before they went bottom up.)

Hehehe. Still denying you're Epicenter?

At least you're trying to "behave" in this thread -- thanks.


I think he only denied being "Epicentre" ;p I think I was wrong about him not being the same person, I think it's pretty obvious at this point.

 

[quartercast]

I'm still obsessed with the expansion card concept. I wish there existed a PCMCIA-like standard in a form factor for smaller handheld devices. Does this already exist? I've googled around a bit but haven't come up with anything <_<

 

[sam fisher]

this was per correspondence I was provided during talks with GamePark regarding development of the XGP series (before they went bottom up.)

Hehehe. Still denying you're Epicenter?

At least you're trying to "behave" in this thread -- thanks.


I think he only denied being "Epicentre" ;p I think I was wrong about him not being the same person, I think it's pretty obvious at this point.

Heh, if he was spelling in Britain he would be "Epicentre"

 

[gaterooze]

btw as to how fast Oddworld is on PSX4GP2X, take a gander for yourself:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lhe-uSMSMLA

(in-game really is practically fullspeed, very impressive)

 

[predatorramboxxx]

btw as to how fast Oddworld is on PSX4GP2X, take a gander for yourself:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lhe-uSMSMLA

(in-game really is practically fullspeed, very impressive)



I dont really see the point of this system right now. Their are virtually multiple devices that have what people are looking for such as 500+ mhz, running windows ce (which is very good for making programs/emulators), have a graphic cards like the intel 2700, have keyboards/touchscreen, wifi, and have plenty of nand for under 400 USD and have virtually thousands of programs/emualtors/apps.

I also think we should leave this keyboard cowboy perosn alone who cares its Epicentre(i have no idea who he/she is maybe someone can explain this to me) its kinda of annoying reading multiple comments of making fun of him/her.

 

[KeyboardCowboy]

Knowing GamePark, they planned at least 100.000 of XGPs because they were sure it will be the new uber-system.

The number was closer to 1,000, for an initial test run of the product.

Thanks for the prices of the i.MX31, so we now have $24 and $25 for that, but still have no prices for the MMSP2+. I assume you have these prices also and just forgot to quote on that part of the post?

The MMSP2+ was never considered so I don't have an exact price figure.

 

[gaterooze]

I dont really see the point of this system right now. Their are virtually multiple devices that have what people are looking for such as 500+ mhz, running windows ce (which is very good for making programs/emulators), have a graphic cards like the intel 2700, have keyboards/touchscreen, wifi, and have plenty of nand for under 400 USD and have virtually thousands of programs/emualtors/apps.

I think it's because most of them don't have great controls for gaming, nor dedicated devs to optimise/create programs specifically for that device. And it sounds like this will be half the cost.

 

[predatorramboxxx]

I dont really see the point of this system right now. Their are virtually multiple devices that have what people are looking for such as 500+ mhz, running windows ce (which is very good for making programs/emulators), have a graphic cards like the intel 2700, have keyboards/touchscreen, wifi, and have plenty of nand for under 400 USD and have virtually thousands of programs/emualtors/apps.

I think it's because most of them don't have great controls for gaming, nor dedicated devs to optimise/create programs specifically for that device. And it sounds like this will be half the cost.

I have seen people using bluetooth game controls but you are right most don't have a decidated dpad or game controls.

 

[n8archer_XI]

Will there be a cradle for it (similar to the GP2X's)?

 

[EvilDragon]

Last I heard the project was being handed over to another company, who would attempt to launch the XGP KiDS and gauge public reaction to determine if the XGP/XGPmini were worthwhile investments. If I am permitted to do so and if issues develop further, and of course if there is interest, I will provide more information in the future. However for the time being that's neither here nor there so I digress.

Yep, only the KiDS, and while they're working on it (I've seen a first working prototype when I met them in Germany), it doesn't have much in common with GP's ideas... it's totally changing.

 

[quartercast]

Woohoo! 2 new handhelds for Christmas?

 

[trooper]

Woohoo! 2 new handhelds for Christmas?

Two ?, Where ?. :blink:

Trooper

 

[nubie]

A common misconception is that say, an ARM11 core at 533 MHz will consume enormous amounts of power compared to say, a 200 MHz ARM9 part. The beauty of ARM's microarchitectures, however, is that they are able to achieve clockrates as high as 1 GHz in mobile chipsets while still only utilizing fractions of a watt of power; while an equivalent 1 GHz PC processor, while more powerful overall, would require over 60 watts at that speed. Other components in ARM's reference platforms (PowerVR MBX 2D/3D Accelerator units, VFP11 Vector-Floating Point coprocessors, of ARM's design, etc.) occupy similarly miniscule amounts of power; especially the VFP11 which would appear, at the lowest level, to be a specialized ARM11 core acting as a floating point unit slaved directly to the main ARM11 unit acting as an integer-only processor. (Due to this implementation and native execution of mixed Integer/Floating Point code in a program binary, it is not necessary to program specially for such a combination, a simple recompile should enable full-speed execution across both cores in floating-point-laden binaries.)

My apologies, that was a little wordier than I wanted it to end up.

Well, I am glad you are thinking, but x86 cores are a lot (LOT!) more advanced than you seem to think, the Geode NX from AMD has had a 7-14 Watt 800mhz-1.4Ghz for at least a couple years (Do not confuse it with the Cyrix-base Geode GX, it is a full Athlon core operating in severely reduced voltage, less than a volt IIRC)

Meanwhile the Conroe-L 1.6Ghz Core-based Celeron is rated at 35watts, I am sure that is a conservative rating and it uses less power than that.

Note that I am not currently saying that the handheld should move to x86 core, but in the future (hopefully) AMD will have 1-watt Fusion cores with integrated (on-chip) ATi video that could easily emulate full-speed N64 while clocked at 1/3 or less speed, not to mention have Xbox or better specs when running at full-speed. And on-chip PCI-E 2.0, basically allowing a BoB with PCI-E slots in it!!

Edit, and DDR2 and DDR3 both have power-saving as a goal, I would like to see 128MB or 256MB so the machine has even a shot at internet browsing, also it will help greatly with some forms of emulation, as well as stuff like PDF viewers, which are hopelessly short of memory on the current hardware.

Just to clear up any confusion, the MMSP2+ has integrated FPU and 2D/3D acceleration, and it is produced on a 130nm process so that it can be full-featured, with all these custom processors and controllers on it.

I hope that I hear of this when and if any real info is released, and I hope it is ready to purchase in under a year, otherwise this could get old fast.

Edit:

I'm still obsessed with the expansion card concept. I wish there existed a PCMCIA-like standard in a form factor for smaller handheld devices. Does this already exist? I've googled around a bit but haven't come up with anything <_<

Well, the new ExpressCard interface has 1/2 width cards and uses both the USB 2.0 and the PCI-E interfaces, we could possibly put a port supporting the USB 2.0 1/2 width ExpressCards. EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExpressCard

Although I would be happy enough with all of the pins on any given processor that could be of use being open on a header or at least a solder pad trace for the internal hackers out there.

That is one of the major problems with the GP2X, a very full-featured chip hampered by a BGA package with some of the coolest interfaces unhackable (Touch-Screen, IDE, Camera interfaces, etc) .

 

[sam fisher]

I dont really see the point of this system right now. Their are virtually multiple devices that have what people are looking for such as 500+ mhz, running windows ce (which is very good for making programs/emulators), have a graphic cards like the intel 2700, have keyboards/touchscreen, wifi, and have plenty of nand for under 400 USD and have virtually thousands of programs/emualtors/apps.

I think it's because most of them don't have great controls for gaming, nor dedicated devs to optimise/create programs specifically for that device. And it sounds like this will be half the cost.

I have seen people using bluetooth game controls but you are right most don't have a decidated dpad or game controls.

Actually those 500mhz processors are usually Xscale processors which are equivelent to a 250mhz ARM9.

 

[jbrodack]

I don't really care to have a new machine for a while. I'm still happy with my gp2x. The homebrew is finally getting extremely good. only thing id like better is an easier cheaper way to do tv out with multiple players. especially since I have an mk1 and would have to find an ac adapter for the cradle. and going with arttaylor is still expensive if your in the us. still its something i can already do I just don't feel like paying that much just to play against another person on my gp2x.

anyway my main point is no matter how good the new machine is and despite some flaws of the gp2x I wouldn't want this new machine for this xmas. and I have a feeling that a lot of gp2x users won't feel the need to go to the next greatest thing immediately. I mean psp is more powerful than gp2x yet a lot of people prefer their gp2x. so beyond specs a big thing to think about is release date. First and foremost do not rush this thing out. It would be nice if there were no "revisions" of this machine and that the initial design is solid enough to remain the same throughout its lifespan. also it should be released when both this community and others would want a powerful open source gaming device with all these proposed features and when people are starting to tire of the gp2x yet before any real competition could come out or before people would lose interest in this device.

I guess my 2 cents are just that we need to remember that specs aren't everything.

 

[nubie]

I dont really see the point of this system right now. Their are virtually multiple devices that have what people are looking for such as 500+ mhz, running windows ce (which is very good for making programs/emulators), have a graphic cards like the intel 2700, have keyboards/touchscreen, wifi, and have plenty of nand for under 400 USD and have virtually thousands of programs/emualtors/apps.

I think it's because most of them don't have great controls for gaming, nor dedicated devs to optimise/create programs specifically for that device. And it sounds like this will be half the cost.

I have seen people using bluetooth game controls but you are right most don't have a decidated dpad or game controls.

Actually those 500mhz processors are usually Xscale processors which are equivelent to a 250mhz ARM9.

Well, when the EEE PC from ASUS drops for under $300 we will see a turning point. 2-4GB of onboard storage, mobile P!!! chips, 800x480, etc etc.

I have to say that I need a laptop more than I need a gaming console (not to mention that a laptop like the EEE pc is going to do a better job of emulating or even full-on PC gaming than any handheld, it has specs to play Halo for Chrissake's, and at under 2LBs it is a real choice. If I transform it into a Tablet and integrate a D-Pad into it won't it be a handheld??)

 

[predatorramboxxx]

I dont really see the point of this system right now. Their are virtually multiple devices that have what people are looking for such as 500+ mhz, running windows ce (which is very good for making programs/emulators), have a graphic cards like the intel 2700, have keyboards/touchscreen, wifi, and have plenty of nand for under 400 USD and have virtually thousands of programs/emualtors/apps.

I think it's because most of them don't have great controls for gaming, nor dedicated devs to optimise/create programs specifically for that device. And it sounds like this will be half the cost.

I have seen people using bluetooth game controls but you are right most don't have a decidated dpad or game controls.

Actually those 500mhz processors are usually Xscale processors which are equivelent to a 250mhz ARM9.

How are they equalivelent? Are you refering to it being so called "dual core".
(i dont know much about handheld processors )

 

[nubie]

anyway my main point is no matter how good the new machine is and despite some flaws of the gp2x I wouldn't want this new machine for this xmas. and I have a feeling that a lot of gp2x users won't feel the need to go to the next greatest thing immediately. I mean psp is more powerful than gp2x yet a lot of people prefer their gp2x. so beyond specs a big thing to think about is release date. First and foremost do not rush this thing out. It would be nice if there were no "revisions" of this machine and that the initial design is solid enough to remain the same throughout its lifespan. also it should be released when both this community and others would want a powerful open source gaming device with all these proposed features and when people are starting to tire of the gp2x yet before any real competition could come out or before people would lose interest in this device.

I guess my 2 cents are just that we need to remember that specs aren't everything.

Some of us have been fed up with the GP2X for over a year due to the crap support and hardware stifling, I wanted the new model last Christmas.

I had a PSP, yes better specs, no not better to game, I got pretty dis-satisfied at the GP2X at about this time, neither can take a keyboard, and that sucks (2X support is crap for the keyboard, Sterm can't even use it properly)

All I need in the next handheld in the way of keyboard support is a clip-on thumb-pad or a USB port on the console, none of this 2 years into a product before it is realized that USB support is needed in all the games and most of the devs are already bored or too busy to care.

 

[KeyboardCowboy]

Well, I am glad you are thinking, but x86 cores are a lot (LOT!) more advanced than you seem to think, the Geode NX from AMD has had a 7-14 Watt 800mhz-1.4Ghz for at least a couple years (Do not confuse it with the Cyrix-base Geode GX, it is a full Athlon core operating in severely reduced voltage, less than a volt IIRC)

Geode isn't based on the K7 or K8 architecture, rather, it's a technology AMD purchased and is developing. It has extremely little in common with desktop processors, it's just compatible with the x86 instruction set and lower-TDP/power consumption. When you are using a battery powered device however, every bit of power counts, and 7-14w is quite a bit compared to a tenth of a watt for a comparable ARM processor.

Meanwhile the Conroe-L 1.6Ghz Core-based Celeron is rated at 35watts, I am sure that is a conservative rating and it uses less power than that.

Intel's TDP ratings are 'average use'. Power consumption/heat output at full utilization is much higher. Comparitively AMD's TDP ratings are the maximum possible under 100% usage conditions.

Note that I am not currently saying that the handheld should move to x86 core, but in the future (hopefully) AMD will have 1-watt Fusion cores with integrated (on-chip) ATi video that could easily emulate full-speed N64 while clocked at 1/3 or less speed, not to mention have Xbox or better specs when running at full-speed. And on-chip PCI-E 2.0, basically allowing a BoB with PCI-E slots in it!!

That'll be quite a while, however. Note that an x86 CPU like Geode at the same clockrate is not as powerful as say, a K7 chip of the same speed. Just like you can purchase an 800 MHz-1GHz+ Transmeta processor which will consume less power than your average x86 CPU from Intel or AMD, but it will perform much, much more slowly.

Edit, and DDR2 and DDR3 both have power-saving as a goal, I would like to see 128MB or 256MB so the machine has even a shot at internet browsing, also it will help greatly with some forms of emulation, as well as stuff like PDF viewers, which are hopelessly short of memory on the current hardware.

256MB would probably be overkill- all those tasks should be perfectly achievable with just good memory mangement. The only reason Firefox uses so much memory, for example, is a number of memory leak bugs that weren't present in older versions of Mozilla. A mobile browser shouldn't approach the 2-300 MB RAM footprint Firefox often does.

QUOTE
Just to clear up any confusion, the MMSP2+ has integrated FPU and 2D/3D acceleration, and it is produced on a 130nm process so that it can be full-featured, with all these custom processors and controllers on it.

The 3D accelerator contains a vector unit which can accelerate 3D transform math, which could potentially be utilized as a vector coprocessor depending on how it interacts with the rest of the SoC and if it can be accessed directly via software or only through the 3D accelerator block's native funcitons. Without more documentation your guess is as good as mine how useful that would be outside of 3D functionality until we have more information. However the MMSP2+ does not appear to have a dedicated FPU. In addition, it is perfectly possible to integrate the same number of controllers on a 90nm or smaller process. As I stated before, the i.MX31 for example integrates just as many, in fact more- including a VFP11 unit- and is fabricated on a 90nm process.

Although I would be happy enough with all of the pins on any given processor that could be of use being open on a header or at least a solder pad trace for the internal hackers out there.

That is one of the major problems with the GP2X, a very full-featured chip hampered by a BGA package with some of the coolest interfaces unhackable (Touch-Screen, IDE, Camera interfaces, etc) .

The MMSP2+ is BGA as well, and that would be an enormous number of pins to put on a header. I agree that whomever is engineering the device should not waste the chipset's features by leaving them unconnected. A good implementation of USB host capability would unlock a lot of flexibility as well.

 

[nubie]

Geode isn't based on the K7 or K8 architecture, rather, it's a technology AMD purchased and is developing. It has extremely little in common with desktop processors, it's just compatible with the x86 instruction set and lower-TDP/power consumption. When you are using a battery powered device however, every bit of power counts, and 7-14w is quite a bit compared to a tenth of a watt for a comparable ARM processor.

GEODE NX You stupid COCK, IS a full K7 chip: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geode_(processor)

From Wikipedia on the Geode NX
QUOTE
* 7th generation core (based on Mobile Athlon XP-M).


I thought I laid that out so you couldn't possibly mis-understand me, how dumb are you?

The Geode GX is what you were thinking of.

Back to the power argument, you said 60-watts, you were way F*cking off, just admit it you dick.

Where is the comparable ARM processor for a 1Ghz K7 ?? Oh, right, there isn't one.

QUOTE

Intel's TDP ratings are 'average use'. Power consumption/heat output at full utilization is much higher. Comparitively AMD's TDP ratings are the maximum possible under 100% usage conditions.

That'll be quite a while, however. Note that an x86 CPU like Geode at the same clockrate is not as powerful as say, a K7 chip of the same speed. Just like you can purchase an 800 MHz-1GHz+ Transmeta processor which will consume less power than your average x86 CPU from Intel or AMD, but it will perform much, much more slowly.
Have you read the independant Conroe-L power consumption reviews on real hardware?? REAL LIFE it is less than that, and with un-optimized power-sucking North and South bridges too.

QUOTE

The MMSP2+ is BGA as well, and that would be an enormous number of pins to put on a header. I agree that whomever is engineering the device should not waste the chipset's features by leaving them unconnected. A good implementaiton of USB host capability would unlock a lot of flexibility as well.


I didn't say all, I said those useful and not implemented.