Our New Machine, Pandora

[Samba Pa Ti]

I don't see how this could be done easily, you don't want it to interfere with the memory of the emulator, so it would need its own dedicated portion which also needs to be accessible by the main processor. You then have the problem of addressing the custom chips at exactly the right speed - synchronisation would be a complete nightmare.

true, but dont consoles like the genesis use a voltage controller to get the sync right ? (like the difference between ntsc/pal framerates and the respective voltages)

 

[Eolair]

please forget about the OMAP and just use the I.MX31 I think the most people would be happy with that because for example I prefer a more Cheap device and a more ARM architecture Device. And the OMAP for me sounds like much much more power consumption than the other Chipsets.

But we don't know yet how much the price would differ. If it turned out to be only $20-$30 I certainly know which one I'd pick. And I don't know if you've noticed but the OMAP3430 is ARM based too. It's using the ARM Cortex-a8 which is of the latest ARM generation and "the most power-efficient processor ever developed by ARM". Which brings me to the question about power consumption. In all probability it doesn't consume more power and I already explained why in an earlier post

 

[Rivroner]

If using the OMAP is feasible and the documentation is open we will take a serious look at it, however this will certainly push things back to spring 2008.

please forget about the OMAP and just use the I.MX31 I think the most people would be happy with that because for example I prefer a more Cheap device and a more ARM architecture Device. And the OMAP for me sounds like much much more power consumption than the other Chipsets.

@N64 emulation: Not good without analog stick. The new Handheld seems to be built without analog Stick. So there is an Problem. Ok, I don't need N64 Emulation but if people searching for an solution of the D-Pad Analog Problem, I have an Idea:
Digital Pad and Analog Controll at the same place, detachable analog-stick, only one of them usable at the same time but we save much space at the device and I think the Handling is much better with booth controlls at the best possible place at the device instead of analog under digital or digital left, Analog right etc...:

Digital Pad and Analog Stick are 2 completely different mechanics, NOT connected (notice free space between them. No idea if this is technicaly possible but we should patend this Idea.


I have read in some forum that Omap power consumption is like i.mx31

 

[X-Code]

I want the best processor, as simple as that, no more, no less, simply the best one. If this turns out as incredible as it sounds, I won't be needing another handheld for the next 6 years :lol:

 

[cappuchok]

I think the Genesis 6 button approach would work for everything but Playstation games. It may be a little too awkward for those so accustomed to 4 shoulder buttons. People can adjust of course, but if it's possible and not too expensive I'd like to see it done.

I really like the way Saitek solved it on their P990 gamepad, which has the typical PSX layout with four shoulder buttons, but the Start/Select buttons also double as the 5th/6th button in the Genesis 6-button layout. Very nice, though it takes some extra room horizontally compared to the typical PSX layout...

Personally, I think the OMAP3430 would be a better choice performance wise. I for one would pay more for a device which would deliver excellent performance and have more longevity due to the fact that it didn't compromise its performance and lifespan because of price. You get what you paid for in the end. A difference in price of about $50 more or less should NOT be of concern if the device is going to meet the demands of the customers.

There's no question that the OMAP3430 is the performance choice. However, there's the matter of documentation and programming tools availability which to homebrew developers may be more important than cost (I know I would gladly pay £200 or even slightly more for a good gaming handheld using OMAP3430, but it'd be rather useless if there was no documentation/tools available to the average homebrew developer (then there'd be almost no programs and games for it - keep in mind this is supposed to be a community-driven device which will not get many commercial games if any at all), TI may well decide to provide docs only to developers who pay them to see the docs....). The i.MX31 is a well known chip with plentiful documentation available for free, it is cheaper than the OMAP3430 but not nearly as powerful. At any rate, the additional power is useless without the documentation and tools to take advantage of it.

 

[fusion_power]

Umm, you obviously didn't see my post a while back with the d-ring and central analogue nub

Prior art, baby, and already parts of the community;P


No, sorry. ^^" I can't be everywhere. :lol: Nice Design but the ring seems to be a little bit to thin and the Nub seems to be not detachable.
With my design, even people with big fingers never touch the analog socket while D-Pad usage (socket is lower than the D-Pad) ANd when you plug the Analog stick In, you can't touch the D-Pad. Thats the main reason for my design. I know, not many people want to use a seperate, detachable Stick but it was just an Idea. ^^ I don't need analog Controlls because I don't need N64 Emulation.

please forget about the OMAP and just use the I.MX31 I think the most people would be happy with that because for example I prefer a more Cheap device and a more ARM architecture Device. And the OMAP for me sounds like much much more power consumption than the other Chipsets.

But we don't know yet how much the price would differ. If it turned out to be only $20-$30 I certainly know which one I'd pick. And I don't know if you've noticed but the OMAP3430 is ARM based too. It's using the ARM Cortex-a8 which is of the latest ARM generation and "the most power-efficient processor ever developed by ARM". Which brings me to the question about power consumption. In all probability it doesn't consume more power and I already explained why in an earlier post

Hm, ok, I didn't know that. Never heard of this "Cortex" ARM Processor. When it doesn't mean more power consumption I could live with it. But the whole OMAP3430 sounds like a very complicated Architecture and only the devs know if it is easy to code on such a platform. ^^"" I prefer Chipsets, where coders have an easy play with it and when this i.MX31 is so well documentated, I hope, the OMAP3430 is to.

 

[Magic Sam]

Hi,

As the new handheld is going to be open source and homebrew oriented (I think), the use of a chipset which lacks documentation would ruin everything down Maybe it would be better to use a less powerful but well documented chipset...Actually I think it depends on the expected market : if this device is intended to be a gaming machine for "geeks like us" h34r: then the i.MX31 should be a good choice, as it would be easier for coders to play with. If in the contrary it's intended for a wider base (which I believe it is), then the OMAP should be fine, as it will attract new customers and new business partnerships...

I think I would not pay more than 250€ for this new device, but I'm not a coder and I'm quite new to this scene so please don't pay attention to what I say

Magic Sam

 

[sold]

QUOTE
There's no question that the OMAP3430 is the performance choice. However, there's the matter of documentation and programming tools availability which to homebrew developers may be more important than cost (I know I would gladly pay £200 or even slightly more for a good gaming handheld using OMAP3430, but it'd be rather useless if there was no documentation/tools available to the average homebrew developer (then there'd be almost no programs and games for it - keep in mind this is supposed to be a community-driven device which will not get many commercial games if any at all), TI may well decide to provide docs only to developers who pay them to see the docs....). The i.MX31 is a well known chip with plentiful documentation available for free, it is cheaper than the OMAP3430 but not nearly as powerful. At any rate, the additional power is useless without the documentation and tools to take advantage of it.



Agreed. But even though this may sound naive, I think this device would get a lot of attention due to its capabilities and open nature (if Texas Instruments provide documentation) which would benefit TI because of (what i foresee as) positive feedback from users and developers, and would probably generate more sales.

What do you think the likelihood of TI providing documentation is?

EDIT: spelling

 

[atomicthumbs]

I agree with people: If we can get the docs for the OMAP3430, good. If not, forget it.

 

[JyCet]

Is it not risky for a new compagny to enter in the market with an expensive handheld ?

I cant understand why i.MX31 is not enough ? All are available now with i.MX31 no ?

Today who use OMAP3430 ? And next month another SOC will appear and some people will want this new SOC ?

 

[zaffercharles]

Hello everyone I have lurked around here since I heard of the GP32 when the 166mhz BLU was coming out and think that this is a very friendly and productive scene.
I never really had much to offer knowing nothing about coding or how tech works other than my personal opinion on the GP32/GP2X which wasn't worth mentioning until now.
All the talk about a new system has been very interesting and exciting to me, I've read all the threads, and as someone who never bought either but looks on longingly perhaps it's a good time to state my opinions and maybe help give a view from outside the main user base. More of an end user/prospective buyer but still, a valuable one considering we'd all like this to be a great success and that means getting a lot more people in my position to jump on board and buy one.

Had the GP2X only been just slightly more powerful (say equivalent of 250 -300mhz without overclock or with true dual core) and without all the problems and the apparently nasty stick, I'd have definitely bought one near launch, it is so close to being what I wanted I've fought with myself the whole 2 yrs whether to accept it as it is or wait in blind hope of a successor, even more so now with the Dpad version around the corner as I realise this new 'super' machine will be quite a way off providing it all works out even. I still probably wont get a F-200 tbh as they are not upgraded internally where it counts and there wasn't even promising initial word on the Dpad , but especially not if this device ends up what I'd consider perfect.
I have never owned a handheld yet, either PDA or gaming device - and this is the perfect opportunity to state what I would have liked to see from the 32/2X without just coming on and moaning aimlessly. If I say something that is ludicrous tech wise please be gentle I'm going to try to keep in the realms of possibility and what I know

The pricing also depends on what kind of device this will actually be and who it will try to appeal to. A PDA with gaming controls or gaming handeld with limited PDA functions? I'm not so sure that even that is entirely clear yet.

Before the idea of this console was mentioned I'd have been happy with a GP2X successor that could run fullspeed Amiga/SNES, stretch and run any format AVI smoothly to fit the 4:3 screen without borders, run a slightly newer build of MAME, and have a simple organiser on it for an alarm clock/to do list reminder.

But as some people are now talking about (much!) more than that, in a perfect world for me, here's my hopefully sensible want list from it.
I'm assuming already that the idea is to have 16:9 touchscreen and a comfortably useable keyboard (i.e not too small) that was capable of:

In order of importance to me by the way-
1a: decent battery life, at least 3 hrs+. b: PSOne style control setup.
2: running very near if not fullspeed PSone with sound, MAME games from the early to late '90s and mostly everything below.
3: turn itself on from sleep and wake me up in the morning, manage my appointments and remind me of them, tell me the date+time like my simple 4 year old mobile phone organiser or better/more, and fit in a medium sized pocket.
4: able to playback any AVI format and stretch widescreen video to fit the screen without borders if that is still necessary on 16:9.
5: at least simple net access to surf, download updates and freeware.

Old favourites already included like MP3 playback etc is a given. Those features would make it kind of like heaven on the go for me :lol:

I don't think that this device should be solely designed around the possibility of a future N64 emulator

For what it's worth nor I. Nintendo 64 emulation would be good but it seems a bad idea to base the model on the fact we might get one somewhere down the line. That's the kind of thing I imagine you want to avoid, people clueless to the task at hand hearing about this new handheld console when word hopefully speads far and wide, that's really powerful and been designed to allow for 64 emulation. Then you have people assuming that they'll be playing fullspeed Road Rash 64 etc not far off launch and instead just spreading the word "it's 'crap' stick to PSP, it does almost everything the CraigUlator* does but better" (and it may well do in the very beginning for a lot of emus or apps initially - before everything is tweaked to run on the new system).

Gamepark Holdings were if I recall slightly misleading as to the power and capability of the GP2X and it damaged them, didn't it? if you stick to designing it for use with PSOne case wise and don't say much of N64 in the advertisement or word of mouth of it, then 64's still always a possibility but you're not trying to sell the machine to a wide audience from the possibility of it and therefore dodging another of Gameparks' mistakes. I and others assumed, right or wrong - dumb or not that GP2X would initially do SNES a lot better than GP32 for instance.
By the way I am not one of these...ungrateful types. I have no problem with people enjoying emulation at less than fullspeed and/or without sound. In a way I admire this and wish I could... if anyone was in the wrong on this issue it's me with regards to needing near fullspeed to enjoy properly. Just to be clear - no offence to anyone who either enjoys working hard to achieve what they do with the GP2X or any other system, or the ones that get enjoyment from playing on them. I'd be completely stuck without you all. B)
And obviously in order to attain fullspeed you need to go through the process. It's just not for me and probably a lot of others like me that may or may not be so understanding but still you all know how others can be... I'm just being realistic. Like it or not we shouldn't turn those impaitent and ungrateful buggers' money away, or risk misleading them with high hopes. If it's going to be an up to date console that has potential to be around and enjoyed for a long time to come there are only so many coders out there to buy one.

I'm strongly in favor of DaveC's design also. It looks like a slide-out has already been chosen, but I hope not. 'Looks like those of us who want primarily a game console will be stuck with a small embedded keyboard

I would prefer a DaveC design too i'm afraid. If the device ends a mix between a poor mans PDA and a rich mans portable console, I'd be happy. If the money is there to make the case sturdy with quality parts then it really shouldn't be a problem to clip it on and off. How about a reversible connector that allows you to flip it and click it back on, leaving it that way around if you don't intend to use it? the touchscreen would be good enough for some in emus etc but then everyone has a decent keyboard in case we get some new styles of users other than just emulated gamers. And that's what we want, to open it up further still.

But maybe that type of thing is beyond the limits of the system price range to design in strong materials ?

Well yeah!, I would also be happy to pay £300 for this device with the OMAP3430 SoC, As it would basically be the device i have been waiting for, for years, Even before i purchased my first GP32. The thing i am longing for (and maybe others are) is a proper control system (D-pad), Muck that up and it could kill the system.

Trooper it sounds like we have a few things in common there. It has to have a good Dpad and enough good buttons in a gaming layout or what it can do wont matter to me at all. That's why I've never bought a pocketPC, GP32 or similar for MAME. I'd pay up to that too for the perfect system for us going forward for the next 4-6 years..

Additionally, let's not forget that MAME will be a major app for this machine just like it is for the GP2X, and given the extra power a newer version of MAME to base the handheld version on would be not only possible but also very desirable for a multitude of reasons.

Absolutely !

There should also be an embedded squirt gun, so that when people with the latest 'light-weight handheld' laugh at us we can squirt them in the eye!

by the sound of it lately, it'd better be a mace gun, so that when people run up to mug us of our 650$ CraigUlator* we can take away their eyes

Personally, considering we are using a touch screen and a large lcd, I think we need some protection.

I know I already said this but I agree, and put the keyboard on the other side of it too. it may not be ideal for gaming but, in closing, we can't make it perfect for everything there's just not enough space or money- Craig and co need to be able to afford to produce this as well as us being able to afford to buy it... open it up to as many people as you can, like GP2X but better. I don't think it should go too far ahead of its time though. Powerful tech has failed before and will again, particularly if there's not a lot of 3D homebrew on it, any power it had left over achieving PSOne emulation (maybe 64 but probably not really nicely) may be wasted power and money in the end.
Imagine all the people who never heard of emulators at all coming across this on a website while looking for a cheap ish PDA/PPC/portable divx/xvid player maybe with internet access and then reading it can also play thousands of old arcade games, computer games, consoles, music etc all just how they may have remembered them with fantastic playstation-esque controls(Dpad, 4 shoulder buttons and right analog stick(?) or 2 sticks? they could have detatchable tops and even be bought seperately if desired. For the right price they'd go for this instead and tell their friends about it too.

They wouldn't want a tiny rubber keyboard on it though I'm pretty sure- and neither do I if it's going to try to be a lot more than your current toy is.

I would like I said, be happy to buy something simpler that tells me when to get up, plays perfect SNES+Amiga and plays any AVI on widescreen for a cheaper price, but I'd pay whatever it took up to £300 if I really had to, to get everything I mentioned and perhaps even more in a quality robust casing, as there is NOTHING on the market capable of all this in one with good gaming controls. I've been waiting for my dream machine above half my life and it's getting less and less unlikely to happen at some point. I hope that this has been an interesting read at least if nothing else, and hopefully look forward to joining in on the forums again when we all have a new toy to play with.
Chris.

*"CraigUlator, I like that. Does it add and subtract?" "Yes, but it can't handle multiplication or division. Maybe in 2 yrs? :lol: JOKE! h34r:

 

[sold]

Is it not risky for a new compagny to enter in the market with an expensive handheld ?

I cant understand why i.MX31 is not enough ? All are available now with i.MX31 no ?

Today who use OMAP3430 ? And next month another SOC will appear and some people will want this new SOC ?

It is risky, but the better hardware will stand the test of time better than the cheaper hardware. Why take the same risk either way if your worried about future advancements which are inevitable?

 

[realyst]

Seeing as this console now appears to be for more then just gaming, I wish to change my earlier name idea:

BrainBrick

 

[atomicthumbs]

Maybe by the time it comes out, we can have EA port Spore to it.

 

[God Ginrai]

Digital Pad and Analog Controll at the same place, detachable analog-stick, only one of them usable at the same time but we save much space at the device and I think the Handling is much better with booth controlls at the best possible place at the device instead of analog under digital or digital left, Analog right etc...:

Digital Pad and Analog Stick are 2 completely different mechanics, NOT connected (notice free space between them. No idea if this is technicaly possible but we should patend this Idea.

Umm, you obviously didn't see my post a while back with the d-ring and central analogue nub

Prior art, baby, and already parts of the community;P


I had thought when I saw that earlier that that was a pretty neat idea, but I must agree with fusion_power that the ring seems a bit thin, I think it would need to be a little thicker, so that you don't "miss" your directionals. Aside from that, I really like the idea. I would highly recommend your design if the ring was made a little thicker, but it's all up to craig on whether he thinks it will work or not.

But I'm also wondering, that analog nub would be similar to the PSP's right? If so, it might be against patents to do what your design asks for, because it is essentially just putting a ring around the nub.

-God Ginrai

 

[DaveC]

Personally, considering we are using a touch screen and a large lcd, I think we need some protection. Having an analogue controller means that a clamshell design is out of the window (unless it's an analogue nub which I think is ugly, difficult to use, and patented). How else are we going to protect the display? Please don't say a flap of material like on the Zodiac, as that looked horrid.

BTW, anyone else thought the analogue nub on the psp was a speaker at first?

So this device *IS* going to use an analog stick then? You and Craig never learned a single thing from having a Zodiac with an analog stick that was absolute SHIT for controlling any digital based emu or game? I can't believe you guys have such a short memory. Emulating a digital controller with an analog DOES NOT WORK WELL. If all this thing is going to be is a 3D PSX emu system then it is good for that. But you want to ruin everything else just for PSX which can already be done on the PSP? SNES, Megadrive, GBA, MAME, NES, and a whole lot more made unplayable just for PSX and maybe N64, which was shit anyway? Sounds pretty stupid. You should name this thing Zodiac 3 Is that all anyone cares about anymore is yet another 3D based system? Isn't there enough 3D oriented hardware around now days (that is all everything is) :rolleyes: No digital pad, no buy.

 

[God Ginrai]

Personally, considering we are using a touch screen and a large lcd, I think we need some protection. Having an analogue controller means that a clamshell design is out of the window (unless it's an analogue nub which I think is ugly, difficult to use, and patented). How else are we going to protect the display? Please don't say a flap of material like on the Zodiac, as that looked horrid.

BTW, anyone else thought the analogue nub on the psp was a speaker at first?

So this device *IS* going to use an analog stick then? You and Craig never learned a single thing from having a Zodiac with an analog stick that was absolute SHIT for controlling any digital based emu or game? I can't believe you guys have such a short memory. Emulating a digital controller with an analog DOES NOT WORK WELL. If all this thing is going to be is a 3D PSX emu system then it is good for that. But you want to ruin everything else just for PSX which can already be done on the PSP? SNES, Megadrive, GBA, MAME, NES, and a whole lot more made unplayable just for PSX? Sounds pretty stupid. You should name this thing Zodiac 3 No digital pad, no buy.


You're so negative. First of all, Squidge never said that they was planning an analog pad, so quoting his post instead of one of the people who are asking for analog is just RUDE.

Secondly, No one who wants analog is talking about throwing out the D-pad. Look at the suggestions: The d-ring and the D-pad with the screw-in analog stick. They don't want to lose the D-pad just as much as you.

Stop jumping to conclusions and just calm down.

-God Ginrai

 

[Turnip]

Yeah it should deffinetly have a digital pad. I really like the ether way up design. The best of both worlds with the added bonus of vertical play with either the digi pad or the stick.

 

[DaveC]

Dpad above, analog below, both on left side... Leaves us with no space for buttons on the left side and that messes vertical gaming

Do you seriously expect it to be designed around playing it vertically? Most likely you will be able to do it to some extent, but it'll be uncomfortable, just like the GP2X.


I am suprised you would say that considering that you are big into MAME

I am sure you have noticed that there are *ALOT* of games played vertical in MAME. Look at ll of the classic arcade stuff, CPS1, CPS2, even vectrex etc. I think there are alot of great vertical games out there so being able to play those vertical game fullscreen should not be slagged off either. Playing those non-rotated will result in a fractionally scaled (320 doesn't go into 480 evenly) tiny image like below. MAME will be a big part of this system too no? Or is it just going to be dsesigned around PSX?


The white border in images below indicates the edges of the 800 x 480 screen.

 

[God Ginrai]

Now you're just trying to attack the PSX. You know, the setup that we want would make N64 easier as well.

Seriously, calm down.

-God Ginrai