Our New Machine, Pandora

[z32fairlady]

If you need the head count, I'm also towards OMAP3430. I've no knowledge on the ARM world, but from what I got on hand OMAP3430 can keep the people's mouth shut for years to come - until there's even newer handheld console come out.

And if the machine is powerful enough, it is not impossible that some big developers may ask for one and start porting their games over!

And think like this. PSP can sell this cheap just because it comes from big company, where part of its cost comes from their viral ad campaign, excessive mass production, support of big developers, and supplier lock-up (see what happened when they contact Sharp for LCD screens!).

Say, PSP slim (PSP-2000) is priced $200 at Play Asia. But with the about factors counted in, it costs actually more than $200.

This new machine, is built by the gamers, and for the gamers. It's truly open, yet performant as PSP do. I too think some gamers will not mind pay for more.

But I would say, $250 is the limit. Otherwise it won't sell either.

Oh and by the way, people are just keep on talking about PSX and N64 emulation on this new machine, so I suppose Craig, ED, etc. are going to integrate a 10-button gamepad into it?

 

[trooper]

Count me in for the OMAP3430 (Wipe`s drool for mouth) , And would be prepared to pay for it, Say £200+, Though i would be content with the i.MX31 if Craigix so chooses. But would still look longingly at what this handheld could have been with the OMAP3430 at it`s heart.

Craig and Co, Bring it on.

Trooper

 

[Rivroner]

Please, you don´t say more i would pay 1 million dollars for it

I think Craigix have to make numbers with i.mx31 (532 mhz version) and Omap3430 (600mhz version or you prefer 1 ghz version ) and use a poll to ask people if they prefer to pay 180 € o 220 € for instance

And i think 4 extra buttons m(d-pad) like wonderswan will be needed, you can use it like c buttons for N64 emulator

Last thing, DaveC design+4 extra buttons is the winner i think

 

[sam fisher]

Count me in for the OMAP3430 (Wipe`s drool for mouth) , And would be prepared to pay for it, Say £200+, Though i would be content with the i.MX31 if Craigix so chooses. But would still look longingfully at what this handheld could have been with the OMAP3430 at it`s heart.

Craig and Co, Bring it on.

Trooper

I'd pay £300 for the OMAP3430....if I really had to, I mean its a pricey SoC.

 

[argor]

If the final cost between i.mx31 and Omap3430 was about + 40 $ , do you really want a worse soc? I think that if the final cost is not more than 50 $ the choosen one have to be Omap.

If you are gonna spend 220 $ you can easily spend 260 $ for a better and future inversion.

I vote for Omap3430, but i would be happy with i.mx31 as well, i like it; but we always want to have a bigger thing

i don´t mind spending some more fore a better hardware and i have to admit i like to code for the ARM Cortex

but the i.mx31 is the realistic chose
it well has very detailed documentation available for it

but for getting document´s for the Omap3430 may be a loot harder than getting document´s from MagicEye's as some of you remember

this is what i.mx31 has going for it it's open nature, mature status, and wealth of existing knowledge

Omap3430 they seem they only like the big companies to use it as they put warios restring and ridiculous batch amounts limits

 

[fatblueduck]

Last thing, DaveC design+4 extra buttons is the winner i think

I'm strongly in favor of DaveC's design also. It looks like a slide-out has already been chosen, but I hope not. 'Looks like those of us who want primarily a game console will be stuck with a small embedded keyboard

 

[trooper]

Count me in for the OMAP3430 (Wipe`s drool for mouth) , And would be prepared to pay for it, Say £200+, Though i would be content with the i.MX31 if Craigix so chooses. But would still look longingfully at what this handheld could have been with the OMAP3430 at it`s heart.

Craig and Co, Bring it on.

Trooper

I'd pay £300 for the OMAP3430....if I really had to, I mean its a pricey SoC.


Well yeah!, I would also be happy to pay £300 for this device with the OMAP3430 SoC, As it would basically be the device i have been waiting for, for years, Even before i purchased my first GP32. The thing i am longing for (and maybe others are) is a proper control system (D-pad), Muck that up and it could kill the system.

Hopefully Craig and Co will get that right.

Trooper

 

[sam fisher]

Count me in for the OMAP3430 (Wipe`s drool for mouth) , And would be prepared to pay for it, Say £200+, Though i would be content with the i.MX31 if Craigix so chooses. But would still look longingfully at what this handheld could have been with the OMAP3430 at it`s heart.

Craig and Co, Bring it on.

Trooper

I'd pay £300 for the OMAP3430....if I really had to, I mean its a pricey SoC.


Well yeah!, I would also be happy to pay £300 for this device with the OMAP3430 SoC, As it would basically be the device i have been waiting for, for years, Even before i purchased my first GP32. The thing i am longing for (and maybe others are) is a proper control system (D-pad), Muck that up and it could kill the system.

Hopefully Craig and Co will get that right.

Trooper

This really would be a killer handheld with proper controls and the OMAP

 

[MWeston]

Here's a question that I have been wondering:

Is there a free compiler that supports the Cortex-A8 core? I seem to recall reading that this core is not supported until gcc-4.3.x which doesn't exist yet. I haven't search through the gcc.gnu.org website to see if this has changed in recent months.

EDIT: gcc-4.3.x supports armv7 but I don't think it is released yet.

 

[God Ginrai]

Really, you won't need 4 extra buttons to emulate N64, although it would make things easier, but 2 extra buttons would certainly help. You could put them either above or below the Dpad like in DaveC's design. Then, the emu could just have profiles for each game, and set the buttons that aren't really used for that specific game to those buttons. (Or if we could add the two buttons next to the standard ABXY in a kind of Genesis/Megadrive button-set, which would make it feel more like the N64, too, with the ABXY being the C's and the extra two buttons being A & B)

But I think we need to get them sold on the OMAP before we start asking for more buttons.

-God Ginrai

 

[Exophase]

As far as I'm aware Cortex A8 fully supports the standard ARM ISA. I don't know if it supports standard Thumb (from what I've seen Thumb 2 should be an extension of it?) but no one uses Thumb anyway. So the compiler support should be there, it just won't be able to take full advantage of it. Thumb 2 is definitely the way to go, you get much better code density with almost the same power per instructions.

I'm sure GCC's ARM output is still overall crappy though, unfortunately.

One plus with OMAP3430 is it appears to have TV-out on the chip, so that might close the price gap a little bit. What I'm not sure it has is wifi/bluetooth (the block diagram shows that it can be added through SDIO and UART/McBSP respectively), but I don't think users would necessarily mind having to get add-ons for that. There still has to be low enough quantity requirements though, or this just won't be possible.

Why does everyone think that decent N64 emulation on 532+MHz i.MX31 can't be possible? Daedalus does an alright job on PSP and unless i.MX31 has some serious design flaws we don't know about it should be a ton faster than PSP.

Now the OMAP3430, that maybe could be powerful enough for decent DS emulation (if done right).

 

[Eolair]

I think we have to be realistic and ask ourselves how many people would pay more than $300 for an unknown device with no or very little marketing support. It's not about what we want but what a large enough costumer base to support a device like this wants and is willing to pay.

Craigix has to finance this device somehow and keep it alive. He can't do that on the costumer base of a few hundred gp32x forum fanatics. I think that more than $300 would be unrealistic. If the OMAP3430 pushes the price above that point then the i.MX31 is mostly likely the better option.

The pricing also depends on what kind of device this will actually be and who it will try to appeal to. A PDA with gaming controls or gaming handeld with limited PDA functions? I'm not so sure that even that is entirely clear yet.

Edit: $250 may have been too low considering the GP2X is ~$240 :lol:

 

[sam fisher]

You americans and you play currency If Craig is producing this expect to pay a UK price of £200+ ~ $400+

 

[Exophase]

I think we have to be realistic and ask ourselves how many people would pay more than $250 for an unknown device with no or very little marketing support. It's not about what we want but what a large enough costumer base to support a device like this wants and is willing to pay.

Craigix has to finance this device somehow and keep it alive. He can't do that on the costumer base of a few hundred gp32x forum fanatics. I think that more than $250 would be unrealistic. If the OMAP3430 pushes the price above that point then the i.MX31 is mostly likely the better option.

The pricing also depends on what kind of device this will actually be and who it will try to appeal to. A PDA with gaming controls or gaming handeld with limited PDA functions? I'm not so sure that even that is entirely clear yet.

How much a device like that is going to sell will depend on what kind of software is available to show what it can do. If it can compete with devices like Nokia's N800 on every front then it'll probably get sales even up to $300 (N800 costs $350. BTW, rumor has it that Nokia's N880 will have the OMAP3430, which will probably be thoroughly wasted on such a device)

Even platforms like Tapwave Zodiac got "enough" sales in a sense, and would have gotten a lot more if not for some crippling flaws. But it's probably going to have to appear as something much more than a game machine (for one thing because it isn't going to get a lot of new games), and it's going to have to offer something new. It could possibly get enough attention as an emulation machine if it does break new ground, but someone will have to write that N64 emulator.

 

[fargo]

$300+ is way unrealistic unless the plan is to sell few hundreds units! Craig and Co should count for potential buyers from outside the forum and competition from other consoles.

 

[atomicthumbs]

As far as I'm aware Cortex A8 fully supports the standard ARM ISA. I don't know if it supports standard Thumb (from what I've seen Thumb 2 should be an extension of it?) but no one uses Thumb anyway. So the compiler support should be there, it just won't be able to take full advantage of it. Thumb 2 is definitely the way to go, you get much better code density with almost the same power per instructions.

I'm sure GCC's ARM output is still overall crappy though, unfortunately.

One plus with OMAP3430 is it appears to have TV-out on the chip, so that might close the price gap a little bit. What I'm not sure it has is wifi/bluetooth (the block diagram shows that it can be added through SDIO and UART/McBSP respectively), but I don't think users would necessarily mind having to get add-ons for that. There still has to be low enough quantity requirements though, or this just won't be possible.

Why does everyone think that decent N64 emulation on 532+MHz i.MX31 can't be possible? Daedalus does an alright job on PSP and unless i.MX31 has some serious design flaws we don't know about it should be a ton faster than PSP.

Now the OMAP3430, that maybe could be powerful enough for decent DS emulation (if done right).

If somebody ported or wrote a decent DS emulator, it would be the real killer app for the System. People would flock to it in two droves of a lamb's tail.

 

[atomicthumbs]

Hey, guys! Since we can't decide by debating, let's have a poll!

http://snappoll.com/poll/217885.php

 

[Exophase]

$300+ is way unrealistic unless the plan is to sell few hundreds units! Craig and Co should count for potential buyers from outside the forum and competition from other consoles.

Since when have these kinds of handhelds ever seriously tried to compete with big name ones from established gaming companies? Given that they don't really have commercial games it's comparing two pretty different things...

 

[Turnip]

As far as I'm aware Cortex A8 fully supports the standard ARM ISA. I don't know if it supports standard Thumb (from what I've seen Thumb 2 should be an extension of it?) but no one uses Thumb anyway. So the compiler support should be there, it just won't be able to take full advantage of it. Thumb 2 is definitely the way to go, you get much better code density with almost the same power per instructions.

I'm sure GCC's ARM output is still overall crappy though, unfortunately.

One plus with OMAP3430 is it appears to have TV-out on the chip, so that might close the price gap a little bit. What I'm not sure it has is wifi/bluetooth (the block diagram shows that it can be added through SDIO and UART/McBSP respectively), but I don't think users would necessarily mind having to get add-ons for that. There still has to be low enough quantity requirements though, or this just won't be possible.

Why does everyone think that decent N64 emulation on 532+MHz i.MX31 can't be possible? Daedalus does an alright job on PSP and unless i.MX31 has some serious design flaws we don't know about it should be a ton faster than PSP.

Now the OMAP3430, that maybe could be powerful enough for decent DS emulation (if done right).

If somebody ported or wrote a decent DS emulator, it would be the real killer app for the System. People would flock to it in two droves of a lamb's tail.


Wouldent it need 2 screens for that?

If it'll emulate the N64 and has anolog controls (I cant imagine playing mario64 with a D-Pad maybe we could have both like the gamecube pad?) i'd pay up to £350 for one. Also, I dont think it should be widescreen because the games arnet in widescreen.

 

[cappuchok]

Well, since I now know that the SoC for the device is still up in the air, I'll say that my number one SoC choice would have to be the OMAP3430. If that's not a realistic possibility though, I'd like the i.mx31.

Quoting to underline that this is exactly my opinion.
The only thing that worries me is the lack of documentation around the OMAP, and the possibility (or risk) that the information homebrew developers need to make the most of it (think cutting-edge demo scene quality) will be restricted by TI. If that might be the case, the scale definitely tips over in favor of the i.MX31 despite it's relatively much lower performance (especially in the graphics department). But it would also be interesting to see some numbers for the Titan, even though it needs more external chips for stuff like WiFi and TV-out than the i.MX31, it is 2x600MHz which would give a fair performance boost even though it still has the same MBX Lite graphics core.

Oh and by the way, people are just keep on talking about PSX and N64 emulation on this new machine, so I suppose Craig, ED, etc. are going to integrate a 10-button gamepad into it?

As it's already been made fairly clear that whatever the SoC, this device will be powerful enough to emulate PSX at an acceptable speed, so 10 or 12 buttons in an acceptable layout (suitable for many consoles and MAME) would be required to take proper advantage of this capability. Myself, I couldn't care less about whether the device has analog controls or not in addition to the D-pad, because I've never come across anything on the PSX that desperately needed analog controls, and if I do, I could just use my Firestorm Analog through the USB port.

Additionally, let's not forget that MAME will be a major app for this machine just like it is for the GP2X, and given the extra power a newer version of MAME to base the handheld version on would be not only possible but also very desirable for a multitude of reasons.

Amiga was expensive and incredible... Give me a handheld that "feels" the same and I'll buy it

This is so well put, I'll have to make it my new signature.