Our New Machine, Pandora

[Goity]

Will any mainstream consumer actually care that it runs linux? I think not. It doesn't really matter that the OS of the system is based around linux; how many people do you think actually know that the GP2x is? There are plenty of other reasons why someone would want this other than an unfounded love of fucking linux and dodgy consumer-hating oprerating systems.

 

[White Demon]

If that's the case, then ditch the keyboard altogether.

After all, that's one of (if not the) reasons that touchscreens were made in the first place.

But the overwhelming majority of us want a keyboard. See the thread with the poll about it.


Craig wants to sell this to as many people as possible, right? That would include the general public as well as us geeks. Therefore, asking just us geeks in here what we want is rather pointless and not representative of everyone who might buy the system. To get a proper response on this, you would need to ask gamers of the general public (if they have an interest in retro, even better), whether they think a 'handheld gaming system with a touchscreen and some PDA/internet functionality should have a built in keyboard or not'. I truly wonder whether the results would mirror the results in this forum or not.

 

[prairiefire]

Craig wants to sell this to as many people as possible, right? That would include the general public as well as us geeks. Therefore, asking just us geeks in here what we want is rather pointless and not representative of everyone who might buy the system.

I can see why you'd say this, and it makes sense. We both don't know for sure why they're making this, (I don't have their business model) but since this was likely spawned from the GP2X scene (the evidence for this is that all info being released about this is on a GP2X forum ), they're doing this to improve upon the GP2X and not to take on the PDA, UMPC market. I'm sure they'd love to make as much money as possible, but my guess is the motivation is to fill the needs of this group of people FIRST and then satisfy the rest of the public second. And why not? As long as they cut enough of a profit to pay for their time and effort, it is worth it.

QUOTE

To get a proper response on this, you would need to ask gamers of the general public (if they have an interest in retro, even better), whether they think a 'handheld gaming system with a touchscreen and some PDA/internet functionality should have a built in keyboard or not'. I truly wonder whether the results would mirror the results in this forum or not.


They probably wouldn't mirror the results and you know what? There are hundreds of companies out there who are trying to satisfy gamers of the general public. What Craigix and Co. are attempting is to target a niche market of gamers and satisfy them as a priority, while trying to leave the device appealing to others outside of this niche market. My thoughts are if you try to go out with the thought of satisfying gamers of the general public, you'll need to get in line because Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, etc. are at the front of this line and they take up a lot of real estate.

 

[Pirotic]

I wouldn't have bothered with a keyboard either. I'm aware that the majority of people asked said they'd rather it had one, but my problem is that simply asking "what do you want in your handheld" isn't very constructive at all.

for example

do you want the cpu twice as fast? of course you do. Now if I ask, do you want a cpu twice as fast OR a battery which lasts twice as long, suddenly it becomes a different question. If you just ask "do you want this" without telling people any of the possible negatives, of course they are all going to want it. Heck, I'd want a microwave oven built into it if it didn't make it any larger or use any more power.

So do you want a keyboard? sure.

but do you still want a keyboard even if it makes it quite bulky and difficult to hold, and makes the touch screen trickier to use? probably not.

If you made a machine based purely on what people wanted, it'd suck, because your average consumer isn't going to worry about how big it might be, how heavy it might be, how much battery it eats up for breakfast etc. as a designer you need to balance what the people want, with what'll be functional. majorities can be wrong sometimes

Look at Nintendo, before the DS launched nobody even knew they wanted a touch-screen. If you had asked joe public what the next Nintendo handheld should of been, I doubt anybody would of said 2 screens and a touchscreen, most would of said 3D graphics, built in camera, that sort of pish.

 

[prairiefire]

I wouldn't have bothered with a keyboard either [snip]

So do you believe that you're one of the few who can make an educated decision around here? You don't seem to have a lot of faith in the direction of the project or the people. It sounds as if you're saying that we don't know what we want. No one knows what they want. I'm interested to know what qualifies you as a person who does know what we want.

QUOTE

Look at Nintendo, before the DS launched nobody even knew they wanted a touch-screen. If you had asked joe public what the next Nintendo handheld should of been, I doubt anybody would of said 2 screens and a touchscreen, most would of said 3D graphics, built in camera, that sort of pish.


@MWeston, Craigix, etc: Could you please remove the keyboard and gaming controls and the screen and replace them with awesome features that everyone would love but don't know exist?


But seriously. I know that it's good to have everyone's opinion on the matter and I appreciate your post. You do know that there are other topics within the Pandora Discussion section that discuss the pros and cons to having a keyboard, the clamshell design vs. other designs, the touchscreen location, etc. It's not naivety of the group that this design doesn't carry it's share of compromise. You remove the keyboard, sure there's more real estate for the gaming controls. You don't have a keyboard, well then you have to rely on virtual keyboards. This has all been discussed.

IMO, the whole "what do you want in your handheld" has been very constructive and I don't know how you can believe otherwise.

 

[Pirotic]

the pro's and con's of adding an individual feature don't take into account the cons of having multiple features together. which is the point im trying to get at, you still have to use your own judgement to make sure all the things you pick work well together, and didn't just get included because of public demand.

the forumites might have voted for a touch screen, and they might have voted for the keyboard. but they didn't vote for a design which means they don't work very well together. from the original mock-up, the keyboard and the touch-screen can't exist side by side without hampering one another.

 

[scarath]

I hope the keyboard will have a simple OFF/ON switch on the side of the machine to stop keys being press accidentally when using the touch screen and the game pads.

I do think the keyboard is a great idea, i love the idea infact!!

Also i hope this this come with a web browser like Kazehakase, less ram used = way better

 

[b._.o._.b]

Will any mainstream consumer actually care that it runs linux? I think not. It doesn't really matter that the OS of the system is based around linux; how many people do you think actually know that the GP2x is? There are plenty of other reasons why someone would want this other than an unfounded love of fucking linux and dodgy consumer-hating oprerating systems.

I think you are right from a mainstream customers point of view, but what are you trying to say? Ditch Linux? If so why?

 

[MWeston]

but do you still want a keyboard even if it makes it quite bulky and difficult to hold, and makes the touch screen trickier to use? probably not.

It does seem to me that there is some sacrifice with either setup. If you make the touchscreen easy to use (ie. PSP like design), then you make the keyboard hard to use. I have used some on screen keyboards and I absolutely hate them. Your fingers block your view. I feel like I am tapping hollow egg shells and I'm going to push a whole bunch of "buttons" at once.

Imagine a PSP/GP2X like design with the desired slide out keyboard under the display. In order to accommodate all the controls, the system is going be around seven inches long (more PSP sized of course). Now stick a keyboard underneath. I don't know if you expect it to be as big as the whole system itself and slide out like a giant tray or if it will be mini and just slide out from under the LCD. Either way, there is a lot of weight shifting to go from game controls to touch screen to keyboard. Also, since the whole system is longer, it is going to be harder to reach many more columns of keys in the center of the keyboard without setting the system on a table to type. The Nokia N810 is made as small as possible for a reason!

I think we would get complaints no matter which way this system was made and that includes removing the keypad all together. As it stands, there are only a few people really complaining about it anyway.

Comments? opinions?

 

[eridium]

the pro's and con's of adding an individual feature don't take into account the cons of having multiple features together. which is the point im trying to get at, you still have to use your own judgement to make sure all the things you pick work well together, and didn't just get included because of public demand.

the forumites might have voted for a touch screen, and they might have voted for the keyboard. but they didn't vote for a design which means they don't work very well together. from the original mock-up, the keyboard and the touch-screen can't exist side by side without hampering one another.

Personally I think that people need to stop making posts stating how this device can't work with a keyboard or how ungainly the design is.
No one on this board except the developers have actually physically held the device. Everyone else is basing their opinions on a picture mockup of a potential prototype or a paper mockup of a cardboard picture.
People like yourself seem to ignore the fact that craigix and crew are exactly the same as the people they are building this device for. Between them they probably have owned, used and tested every other handheld out there, I think that gives them just a bit of credibility for knowing what their doing.
When they first let out the news, everyone applauded them for this. Now some of you are jumping all over them because what they came up with does not fit your personal "vision".
How about giving them a little credit where credit is due?
Not that constructive criticism should be ignored, but it should be better tempered with the information that is available instead of all of this outright negativity that's being bandied around.

I think the developers have been very open to our suggestions and some of our ideas are making their way into the device. The keyboard is going to be a part of this device. Now we just need to help make sure it's a functional feature by offering our suggestions when more information about it becomes available.

 

[Gaeryc]

No one on this board except the developers have actually physically held the device. Everyone else is basing their opinions on a picture mockup of a potential prototype or a paper mockup of a cardboard picture.
People like yourself seem to ignore the fact that craigix and crew are exactly the same as the people they are building this device for. Between them they probably have owned, used and tested every other handheld out there, I think that gives them just a bit of credibility for knowing what their doing.

Amen for this. I trust Craigix, there's no way that he would make a shitty handheld.

 

[atomicthumbs]

I hope the keyboard will have a simple OFF/ON switch on the side of the machine to stop keys being press accidentally when using the touch screen and the game pads.

I do think the keyboard is a great idea, i love the idea infact!!

Also i hope this this come with a web browser like Kazehakase, less ram used = way better



From what I've seen, Kazehakase can only be described as incomplete. Seriously, it's more of a pain to use than Dillo.

I'd much prefer Flock.

I wonder what the developers think of my Flock idea.

(hint hint)

 

[b._.o._.b]

I think we would get complaints no matter which way this system was made and that includes removing the keypad all together. As it stands, there are only a few people really complaining about it anyway.

Comments? opinions?

Most sliding keyboard devices look more stylish, but from a practical point of view I can see the clamshell design like it is chosen to be the better one.
I like the small dimensions of the Pandora and if it doesn't weigh much I see myself thumb typing comfortably on my couch.

The polls suggests a very big majority of the people want a keyboard, so I guess that's a given. There is a rather large group that also want a tablet choice/mode as well. http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=39844. Sliding keyboard doesn't seem to be a good option, and I haven't seen any other designs that were functional.

 

[Peter R]

I hope the keyboard will have a simple OFF/ON switch on the side of the machine to stop keys being press accidentally when using the touch screen and the game pads.

I do think the keyboard is a great idea, i love the idea infact!!

Also i hope this this come with a web browser like Kazehakase, less ram used = way better



From what I've seen, Kazehakase can only be described as incomplete. Seriously, it's more of a pain to use than Dillo.

I'd much prefer Flock.

I wonder what the developers think of my Flock idea.

(hint hint)

You've been pushing flock for weeks now. I think you should stop trying to force the idea. If a developer wants to port flock, i'm sure they will give it a try. However, if you want it for sure then I suggest you port it yourself.

 

[atomicthumbs]

You've been pushing flock for weeks now. I think you should stop trying to force the idea. If a developer wants to port flock, i'm sure they will give it a try. However, if you want it for sure then I suggest you port it yourself.

If I had an SDK, I would learn C and port it right now, and send the source and compiled versions off to the developers for evalution for including in the firmware.

But I don't, and I don't know C. That's why I'm asking their opinions.

 

[Peter R]

Well, why not just make a flock topic in the development section and stop reposting the information. I would imagine the developers check the development topics more often than the general one.

 

[timofonic]

Why not irda? It could be used under UART and the hardware cost can be quite small. Please think that the irda could be used for IR remote controlling too.

What about multitouch screen like the iPhone? That could make possible very creative games, and games like ScummVM having a quite interesting control way.

Why having a keyboard? I think a multi-touch screen can substitute the keyboard and even being faster to type than a tiny one.

Why not Bluetooth? It could be quite interesting for stuff like: earphones, connecting to a cell phone, GPS, a wiimote for using it on the TV...

It will have DVI/RGB/VGA output? useful for connecting it to classic CRT, computer monitor or the expensive TVs named HDTV.

Will be hack-friendly? I mean a port for connecting hacky stuff as an arcade joystick easily, but I think USB can do this easily with some kind of microcontroller board.

It will be possible to add devices to the SDHC ports? Like whatever kind of devices as GPS, Digital radio/tv receiver...

Will finally be able to emulate GP32 and GP2X easily or just a thinking about possibilities of the future? It could be very interesting to run those software that never will be ported to Pandora, at least officially.

My personal idea for Pandora would be like the open-source and successful successor of Zodiac, PDA+portable console and maybe cell phone if connecting it to a cheap phone over bluetooth.

(Sorry, too many pages to read)

 

[cappuchok]

http://pandora.bluwiki.com is your friend.
However I'll just toss a few answers from memory:

What about multitouch screen like the iPhone? That could make possible very creative games, and games like ScummVM having a quite interesting control way.

ScummVM is not a game, much like DOSbox is not a game.

Why having a keyboard? I think a multi-touch screen can substitute the keyboard and even being faster to type than a tiny one.

Has been discussed over and over again. For daily usage like messaging and shell access, a physical keyboard, if well designed, will be far superior to anything touchscreen- or T9-based.

Why not Bluetooth? It could be quite interesting for stuff like: earphones, connecting to a cell phone, GPS, a wiimote for using it on the TV...

Bluetooth is an addon chip, it's not included in the OMAP3430 chip itself. To cut costs, since many users won't use Bluetooth anyway, the designers apparently decided it will be easy enough for us to add it ourselves through use of SDIO cards.

It will have DVI/RGB/VGA output? useful for connecting it to classic CRT, computer monitor or the expensive TVs named HDTV.

In Europe almost every TV sold is RGB compatible, even old CRT 4:3 ones, so I'm certainly hoping Craigix and the team will include RGB (it's also the most authentic way of running MAME on European TV sets). RGB is for SDTV only, not HDTV. For that, you need DVI or HDMI. VGA or DVI-I would be a nice touch though.

Will be hack-friendly? I mean a port for connecting hacky stuff as an arcade joystick easily, but I think USB can do this easily with some kind of microcontroller board.

You answered yourself, there.

It will be possible to add devices to the SDHC ports? Like whatever kind of devices as GPS, Digital radio/tv receiver...

They've been said to be SDIO compatible, so it all depends on driver availability.

Will finally be able to emulate GP32 and GP2X easily or just a thinking about possibilities of the future? It could be very interesting to run those software that never will be ported to Pandora, at least officially.

Most existing GP2X software should be fairly easily ported, perhaps no more than a recompile is required for much of it. GP32 might be trickier but IIRC Squidge was working on a GP32 emulator (of sorts) for the GP2X so perhaps it'll be ported to Pandora as well... only time will tell.

 

[Squidge]

Bluetooth is an addon chip, it's not included in the OMAP3430 chip itself. To cut costs, since many users won't use Bluetooth anyway, the designers apparently decided it will be easy enough for us to add it ourselves through use of SDIO cards.

Or via USB dongles

 

[atomicthumbs]

In Europe almost every TV sold is RGB compatible, even old CRT 4:3 ones, so I'm certainly hoping Craigix and the team will include RGB (it's also the most authentic way of running MAME on European TV sets). RGB is for SDTV only, not HDTV. For that, you need DVI or HDMI. VGA or DVI-I would be a nice touch though.

Yeah, but then won't all of us USers be stuck with a SCART thing? Or were you thinking of an adapter?

Will be hack-friendly? I mean a port for connecting hacky stuff as an arcade joystick easily, but I think USB can do this easily with some kind of microcontroller board.

The USB will work. You'll need a level converter, but there is RS-232. The internal dev header will have I²C. I'm hoping it'll have SPI, too. 1Wire would be neat, but probably not.