Our New Machine, Pandora

[RockOut]

The hardware simply doesn't matter unless there is good software to run on it. For the Craiginator to be popular, it will need to have at least a few good 3d games like quake 3, etc or very few people will buy it and the device will tank. I'm sure that some people will buy it, but I can get a laptop that plays CS:S for $600 and has 4 hours of battery life plus a warranty from a large corporation. The Craiginator will need to be around $300 for a large number of people to buy it unless it has an outstanding selection of 3d games.

 

[A_SN]

Don't buy it, it's not for you.

 

[housemonkey]

Pazuzu!

Nice obscure referance user name.

 

[atomicthumbs]

I think that Craig wouldn't ship people something without a battery charger as this would be a worthless chunk of plastic, metal, and epoxy without it.

 

[atomicthumbs]

I would be a challenge for a developer to find out

You're quite a challenge already.

 

[magickam]

Pazuzu!

Nice obscure referance user name.

Finally someone seems to understand.

On a slighter note, what I was trying to say is that for 400$ there are other things I would buy before the craiginator and I know alot of people who share the same idea. I took the EEE as an example but I would never buy it.

 

[MWeston]

Well, I understand that it is very easy to bash a device when it is just 'vapor ware' and that is why we are working so hard to get some tangible results ready as soon as possible. Only a tiny bit of information has even made it onto this website and so much of what the OMAP chip can do cannot be talked about until product launch. If you can, postpone your harshest judgments until after you see this thing in action.

By comparison, the release pricing is pretty much on par with what you can expect of most devices like this. You have to remember that this is the latest in mobile processing technology. In three years, I bet this chip will be much cheaper to buy, but right now it is new. The benefit to us is that it keeps us (the community, the devs and Craig co.) on top for a long time to come. Six months from launch, it isn't likely that we will all be in a panic because something else was released that adds another emulator to the list of possibilities. This is going to be "top dog" for some time. I truly believe that.

If I remember correctly, here are some other examples of devices that have similar capabilities. Well, except for something............hmmn, now what is it that they are missing.....................oh, right: GAME CONTROLS

Sony Milo - $349
Nokia N800 - $350
Nokia N810 - $400


My personal opinions on emulators for the 'craigibumble3xthingy':

PSX - hell ya! 60fps all the way baby!
SATURN - doable
NDS - doable
DREAMCAST - maybe as a proof of concept (200MHz on a 550MHz ARM doesn't seem to follow the ratio rule but it's worth a shot!)


EDIT: Oh, and I too would like to see the selling price drop to make it more attainable by even more people, but the next step to getting the price down is no name parts and using assembly houses that do such a lousy job of pasting over the screens that parts fall off the boards when they get into customers hands! I for one will refuse to be part of a company that accepts that kind of business practice and I know for fact that Craig wouldn't even consider it.

 

[Exophase]

Urgh, it's not $400, you don't pay VAT on products you buy outside of the UK, and if a distributor charges $20 S&H for it you're being ripped off. It's estimated closer to $320-$330 w/o VAT, S&H should be no more than $10 (and hopefully less), it uses lithum ion and it already comes with a battery (and most people don't need an extra one). If current GP2X rigs are so "good enough" why will you want larger memory cards?

I just don't get this thread. If GP2X is good enough for you then that's great. It should be REALLY obvious that not everyone shares your opinion. Nothing about Craiginator that we know of makes it "bad" for emulating old platforms, yeah it's a little widescreen but that barely makes a difference and the screen is overall larger than GP2X's. It's not 480x272 like PSP, you can easily scale 4x to 640x480 and not have artifacts, and the extra room can be used for a touch interface.

Not only that, but it has a touchscreen and a keyboard. Combined with the large resolution this makes it viable for all kinds of PDA like tasks that GP2X couldn't dream of doing, even F200.

The whole attitude just bugs me, "I'm not interested so why should anyone else be"

And JXD 301 is clearly overrated if you ask me. People see "600MHz" and stop thinking further.

 

[Classic Team]

I have to agree with MWeston. The Craiginator will be one of the most powerfull pieces of hardware of this time. As an example, my dad bought A PDA 2 years ago. It runs at approx. 250 MHz and Game Boy Advance games half the time dont run or are just to annoying to play. He payed about 280$ for this. Now, the Craiginator my be expencive (~300 - 400 U.S. dollors, depending on what OTHER things you need) , but will be one of the only choses for portable gaming this expancive. Something to consider, is that

something THIS powerful is byond the prise for most gaming companys. You will not see something this powerful in the gaming industry for another 4 something years, untill the prise is cheap enough for the company, and the consomer. (AKA Nintendo...)

Anyhow, something of thought...

 

[RockOut]

I agree that it will be the most powerful and I am not criticizing it too harshly. I just want to point out that the minor advantages of being able to play PSX make such a large investment foolish. If it does more than full PSX, it sounds like a good deal.

 

[Classic Team]

From what I've read it may even do N64, Saturn, or even Dreamcast (Although I dont think Dreamcast will run full speed, otherwise it would be the coolest thing on the planet.) But the problem with these are are variant. The N64 takes a considerable amount of cpu power, and alot of people have trouble with creating Saturn emus. But you never know...

And just to comment on the creators post, You do have some valad points. But the pros overcome the Cons of this system, and hopfuly people will look into the future of gaming - weather it come by something as small as the craiginator, to our computers becoming our consoles through internet connections.

anyhow...

 

[saehn]

No need for all the attitude. Christo was just expressing his thoughts. If there's one thing this forum can obviously handle, it's open expressions of opinion.

He doesn't have anything especially negative to say about Craig's machine, he's just balking at the price. Petty economic childishness aside, it's a rather expensive toy by US standards.

No one doubts that it will be impressive once it's released, but for now many of us just wonder how it's going to turn out from a business perspective. All that we have to compare it to is the GP2X with its price range and capabilities.

Interesting to watch, to be certain. Although 3000+ posts of uber-goober speculation is a bit silly. :rolleyes:

 

[God Ginrai]

Saturn emulation maybe

I note very well the maybe, but seriously: do you think this might actually be a possibility, or something closer to, say, how PSX currently is on the GP2x?

Saturn would be out of this world (Guardian Heroes is amazing, and Nights would look very pretty indeed on a small screen), but I was under the impression that even though the OMAP eats each individual chip in the Saturn for breakfast, timing them all together is a nightmare that results in a need for modern machines.


I don't see Saturn being very probable even at the speeds the GP2X does the PSX. Also, due to that fact, I foresee most devs will probably treat the topic of porting a Saturn emu like most GP2X devs treat the topic of porting an N64 emu.

-God Ginrai

 

[Sphinxter]

I don't think the price matching a good console is out of line at all and may actually help it, the marketing power of the status symbol is pretty strong stuff, For instance I don't mind paying extra every other year for tear down and inspection and a small ransom for a tuneup, it's a porsche 911 and I never even asked how much extra it would be, nice being the only one in my neighborhood, can't even explain the hold it has over me. Craigs price makes me want it more but it's got to be all that, like the 911 you should not be left wanting. Sharper image might give you retail space access. Someone has to own the high end of the market.

 

[Exophase]

Saturn emulation maybe

I note very well the maybe, but seriously: do you think this might actually be a possibility, or something closer to, say, how PSX currently is on the GP2x?

Saturn would be out of this world (Guardian Heroes is amazing, and Nights would look very pretty indeed on a small screen), but I was under the impression that even though the OMAP eats each individual chip in the Saturn for breakfast, timing them all together is a nightmare that results in a need for modern machines.


I don't see Saturn being very probable even at the speeds the GP2X does the PSX. Also, due to that fact, I foresee most devs will probably treat the topic of porting a Saturn emu like most GP2X devs treat the topic of porting an N64 emu.

-God Ginrai


Saturn might be possible in some capacity with super optimization and 1GHz+ CPU, at least for some games anyway. It's hardly a lock and the biggest problem is getting someone to actually try it. I don't think it's likely we'll even see that, but just objectively thinking this is what I think about it.

Saturn does have a lot of CPUs, it's true, and that takes a toll. However with strong idle loop elimination (with hard patching if necessary) we could see a lot of that minimized. The main SH2 should be able to run well with dynarec, and I think doing two to three address optimization would be interesting. The same goes for the slave SH2 and the SH1 (can you believe 3 20+MHz similar CPUs? But the SH1 is probably not used much, I think it's for video decoding). Same dynarec core should be used for all of those.

VDP1 can be done in hardware but VDP2 is scary. Frameskip might have to be brought in.

SCU sounds kinda scary too, I'm hoping that integer NEON could be used, along with another recompiler. The 68k isn't a big deal, probably best to use a fast interpreter like Cyclone. Sound DSP is not programmable like the main DSP, so hopefully some heavy optimizations can go its way. I don't think SMPC is a real processor, just a system control unit that's issued commands externally.

I think that if people focused on something like this the same way PCSX2 optimization has been focused on it could be done. Not likely but possible.

EDIT: SH1 is not programmable, it runs a CD-ROM driver in ROM, so it doesn't have to be emulated. SMPC is similar to that.

 

[kingbuzzo]

the NEO GEO was really expensive when it was released, was superior to everything and had a lifetime of over 15 years.

it is the cutting edge, expect to pay for it if you plan to be one of the first to experience it.
Nothing like this has ever been done, and I for one am VERY excited.

 

[zaffercharles]

Yes, it is a pity that the price is inflated for americans but could any of you guys imagine dealing with that on every single thing you bought over here? look at PS3- it was almost twice the price over here at launch.
There really is only one thing for it, see what it can do and decide then. If all you're interested in is what the gp2x can already do, sure aside from doing it all fullspeed (probs) there won't be much point in you buying it considering the price.
But it seems to me it is something of a different class and not just in terms of power.

There are a fair few people out there that like the idea of gp2x but didn't want to 'bear with it' looking back on all the faults or drawbacks that didn't need to be there with a little more development and/or by listening to feedback. If it had been.. say 20% more powerful OR with a decent dpad I'd have bought one. Fullspeed 2d would have sold even more gp2x I'm sure. Good as it is, it wasn't a huge step up from gp32 in capability and I was hoping it would be more than it was. I've been watching and waiting for the last... 4 years??

Bottom line is, this craiginator thing is just what I was dreaming of when I heard about first gp32 then gp2x, a reasonably paced and priced mini-pc with proper gaming controls as well as the usual touch/keyboard. That will do 2d emulation, play media and have some pda use perfectly. If you have to take the 3d capability alongside that well it'll just end up a bonus when something's made for it

am I the only one that is interested in the other uses than games? maybe I am, considering most you guys'll have at least one gadget that already does that job. Think of all the ones like me without any mobile devices that can be drawn towards this through both the gaming and the practical side of it. (not in america maybe)


I hope everyone embraces it when it's here, I fully understand your point that to you there may be little benefit for the price but.. that's the way it goes when you're already on the bandwagon and like where you are I guess h34r:

Anyway the gp2x will still do what it's always done, maybe a little more yet so don't worry about it.

 

[b._.o._.b]

Initially this device would have been launched much sooner and lower priced. It is due to the community (and especially developers) that the device has become what it is now (on paper that is).

I would have been happy with a lot less. A combination of touchscreen / rtc /wifi and keyboard with a dpad + the gp32x.de devs makes me a guaranteed costumer. Who cares about the rest
The devs decided they need more then just that, and Craig has listened to their advise. He knows this will only succeed it the devs will join his effort. How non-GPH I guess, in retrospect, that's a very good choice and I'm sure the devs will make this new machine the best gadget on earth.

 

[Squidge]

And JXD 301 is clearly overrated if you ask me. People see "600MHz" and stop thinking further.

Actually, it's 500Mhz. Websites say 600Mhz, but it's got a 500Mhz chip in it. I can only assume that it was originally going to be 600Mhz.

As for saying the console is too expensive in the american market, it's the same with all electronic devices, depending on where they are built. For example, the eee pc is much cheaper over there than in the uk (I've seen websites quoting $199, compared to £199 in the UK rather than the £100 it should be if it just needed the price conversion).

 

[Melville]

...and if a distributor charges $20 S&H for it you're being ripped off ... S&H should be no more than $10 (and hopefully less)

I seriously doubt it could be shipped from the UK to USA for $10. At today's rate (on xe.com) $10 = £4.78, which would only just pay to ship, say, a boxed GP2X within the UK. If you want it sent to the USA at a decent speed and with insurance, I'd guess $20 would be the minimum you'd pay.

It's good to see some people willing to debate this properly BTW - it's obviously supposed to be a thread for discussing the craiginator's potential weaknesses, so all the "so don't buy it" posters have completely missed the point.