Notaz and his Pandora!!

[MDave]

Notaz, can you do a screen ghosting screen shot comparison with any other handhelds you have? Using the same scene from Sonic?

Can I ask why ??? If it is an old 'B' grade LCD unit (that's not going to be used in the final Pandora's) he might as well compare his calculator with his other handhelds.

Because Exophase says best not to get your hopes up that the final one will be better.

 

[juniorm33]

From my perspective, this is the worst case scenario and the production screen may be better, but wont be worse than this.

They've already come out and said that the production screens are better, or at worst implied that.

I liked the quick heads up warts and all. Even if it's not a final screen and case
. As long as it states it as such.

 

[john4p]

I never expected the Pandora's LCD to be completely ghosting-free. I still often use my PSP-1000 and completed dozens of 2D games on it (Rondo of Blood, Mega Turrican, Symphony of the Night, Alundra, etc.) - after a while you forget about the ghosting.

If the LCD is "not as bad as the PSP 1000's" it's already pretty good.

Most important is that the games run smoothly at constant 60fps (50fps for Amiga games) - and that's where the Pandora will deliver (except for N64- and Dreamcast-emulation probably).

@notaz: Could you please make a video of UAE4All on Pandora with sound?

 

[craigix]

B grade LCDs are in these prototypes because they are what Michael had at his house when building them (they were actually bought from a second electronics shop in China for a few $ to save us money when developing the prototypes). The A grade ones are in Dallas. I've no idea what the difference is between the A and B grade screens.

Sonic 1 is one of the worst games for seeing ghosting on any LCD. You can't see any ghosting for example in Sonic and Knuckles. I'm not sure why, I did at one point wonder if it was the frame rate, but it's probably that Sonic and Knuckles has more soft shading and less 'clashy' graphics.

x68000 has seen and used a Pandora at my house, so he knows what the screen is like. Also... watch the youtube videos.

 

[Bosbeetle]

How did you hammer those cracks into it craig? And more importantly did you tape it on video?

 

[jonjandran]

If they are the same Lcd's , then there will be no difference between grade a and grade b lcd's in regard to color/contrast/refresh rates/etc.

The difference between grade a and grade b is minor imperfections. Like maybe a stuck pixel or two, small scratches on the plastic protective layer over display, minor pressure mark shadowing on LCD panel, minor plastic case imperfections,etc.

Sorry to let you guys down but if it is the same Lcd and just different "Grades" it will have the exact same ghosting.

 

[DixieDawg]

Maybe someone could try Pac-Man under MAME and see if there is any "ghosting"

 

[LuvClub]

Now, I am glad I am in the latter half of the pre-order queue. Hopefully someone like DaveC would be able to get hold of a Pandora before I do and give their verdict on the ghosting (if there is any). If it's good enough for him then it'll do for me, but hopefully he'll be honest as his reputation would be on the line.

 

[Dead1nside]

In specification there is not going to be any difference between A and B grade products; as Craigix has said it's only to do with cosmetic differences and imperfections. However also as Craigix has pointed out, I haven't seen anything wrong in the videos, my sister owns a PSP-1000 and I've played a few games on there and not noticed anything. I'm not distrusting anybody's word I just have a bit of faith that it won't be as major as things sound right now. Like I've said previously if it's something that affects especially emulating 2d games -- much the purpose of the Pandora -- then I'm sure some thought would've been put in to screen choice. I've always been encouraged by the clarity, brightness and viewing angles of the screen in videos.

I'm going to wait and see. We've heard grumbles about things before but it won't be an issue for me until I can assess it myself.

 

[Phawx]

@fischju2000

Thanks for the link!

For those that are interested, I've found an updated spec sheet:

http://www.beyondinfinite.com/lcd/Library/Toppoly/TD043MTEA2_V1.pdf

It lists the response time in this spec sheet. So like @jonjandran said, I don't believe the grade is going to change the ghosting.

However I believe the rising and falling numbers are incorrect, or rather backwards. Usually the falling response time is much longer than rising. Also, by evidence of Notaz picture and videos done my ED, these numbers should be showing inverse ghosting which I haven't seen. I'd say we could focus more on typical numbers, so everything is more or less in line with what @Exophase, @Notaz and @Mweston have been saying/showcasing.

True Black to Black is 40 ms typically and max 55ms. However, the weakest link is the most apparent which is *usually* the falling response time. I highly doubt the falling response time is 10ms, because you really wouldn't be seeing that much of a blur from a still picture. Everything would look muddy in motion.

So knowing the exact Black to Black rather than the questionable gray to gray is really helpful. Generally, I attribute the falling response time as the *only* response time. So personally I would consider the screen as 30ms.

While it's not the best for gaming purposes, it's yet to be determined what the actual type the panel *is*. We know it's LTPS, but from the amount of colors, I don't know if they are using dithering or not. Plus the viewing angle is right at the threshold for TN panels. So I am actually leaning more towards this particular screen being TN now, but the response time seems unusually high for a TN panel. I don't have enough info and wouldn't be able to give a better guess until I have the Pandora in my hands. Obviously, there is a lot more to a screen than solely response time. And most of the video's I've seen looked fine, including Mario 64, which is pretty easy to see ghosting on the opening scene.

So I'd probably be more inclined to say that what Notaz notes, it probably what we should all expect.

Also, it's worth pointing out that most of my research has been for Desktop LCD's and I am only transferring my understanding onto this particular panel.

Edit: I should probably also include a bottom line for people that are getting worried looking at those numbers.

If you have seen a PSP-1000 and were not bothered by ghosting, I guarantee you will NOT see anything wrong with Pandora's screen. If you've been playing fast paced FPS and/or gaming in general for a good portion of your existence like I have, You will see the ghosting in high contrast areas. Like @Exophase and @Yannv said, this can be marginalized, so ghosting would be less apparent.

 

[MWeston]

I called them B grade because those panels are the only ones I have ever seen bad pixels on. They are further differentiated by the fact that their powered off color is different. The 4000+ panels for the production orders are a darker black but these ones I call B grade are more silver colored. Craig noticed a difference in ghosting on this unit instantly and so did Notaz. The darker background displays seem to be a bit better in response time.

Since doing that roaming rectangle test in uboot which looked perfect to me, I can see some slight trailing in high speed motion of solid color blocks in games but it is way better than a PSP and I have to be looking for it like a man on a mission. 16ms g2g is still not as good as the latest flat screens with 2-5ms but games look good to me. You won't see Mario's hat on the left side of the screen when you are already over to the right like you do on the PSP. I don't know if the Youtube videos can capture the display fast enough but it looks the same as that in real life.

 

[Dead1nside]

Thanks to everyone for explaining this. Including notaz, MWeston and Phawx.

 

[BaDToaD]

Well as I'm old enough to remember playing Pong on a black and white TV in the 70s... Trust me, In comparison LCD blur is nothing to worry about LOL

 

[Nova]

Hmm I'm not convinced. The devs seem loathed to tell us that the new "A Grade" screens are a whole lot better. This issue has me a tad worried.

 

[renwils]

Maybe someone could try Pac-Man under MAME and see if there is any "ghosting"

I lol'd.

Hopefully the examples they show are not cherry-picked. B)

 

[ThaDSman]

If notaz is making a video, I beg of you to do some SNES emulation preferably Super Mario Games, because that's mainly what I play.
And also on the PSP when playing Super Mario Allstars you get choppy video when going back and forth through games, does it load smoothly on our Pandys'?

 

[fusion_power]

I called them B grade because those panels are the only ones I have ever seen bad pixels on. They are further differentiated by the fact that their powered off color is different. The 4000+ panels for the production orders are a darker black but these ones I call B grade are more silver colored. Craig noticed a difference in ghosting on this unit instantly and so did Notaz. The darker background displays seem to be a bit better in response time.

Since doing that roaming rectangle test in uboot which looked perfect to me, I can see some slight trailing in high speed motion of solid color blocks in games but it is way better than a PSP and I have to be looking for it like a man on a mission. 16ms g2g is still not as good as the latest flat screens with 2-5ms but games look good to me. You won't see Mario's hat on the left side of the screen when you are already over to the right like you do on the PSP. I don't know if the Youtube videos can capture the display fast enough but it looks the same as that in real life.

As long as the Pandora screen is as fast as the GP2X (F100) Screen, I'm totaly fine with it. I've played ALOT Sonic games with my GP2X and I've never noticed ghosting, not even in the fastest runs through the fastest passages. maybe the higher res. of the Pandora screen will make a difference here but I think what I've seen so far in Pandora Videos shows a modern and fast LCD. .)

 

[hosant]

I do notice ghosting in my PSP-1000 and is very noticeable in the Spiderman 2 UMD. however, I don't notice any of it on my e800 video playback. Is it possible that my e800 has a P2p times than Pandora? I don't believe so, but the screen do was high end back in 2003...

 

[Pleng]

I'll just play without my glasses. Should fix any ghosting issues

 

[notaz]