No More 275mhz Units?


demonblaze

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What do you mean you hoped the word 'marketing' would stay away from the community? CraigX runs a business that sells the GP2X and helps publish the games. He dosn't have time to earn a living as a plumber or any other way than through his business. Any business that hopes to make ANY money needs marketing to some degree so that was quite a stupid thing to say. And as for the people complaining about cherry-picked units; GPH make the GP2X and therefor if anything in the MK2s (like the ability to overclock) isn't as good as the MK1s then it's down to them not him, he only resells them. And it really is up to people's tastes, some people see it as a waste of cash, personaly if I didn't already have a 1st edition I'd opt for it. The extra speed isn't just for emulation, some of us like to experiment and see how far we can push it to see how it can REALLY perform. Stop bitching, CraigX and EvilDragon have pretty much built the community from the GP32 days and should be treated with respect. If you don't like that then get yourself a monochrome gameboy or a jizmondo :p
 

ruckage

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I agree, I opted for the 275Mhz unit. I wasn't conned - I knew exactly what I was buying. For me I felt that it would be good to have the option of overclocking this high, I know that there is a chance that any unit could also overclock like this but there is also a chance it won't get anywhere near it. If I had gone for the standard option and then found I couldn't overclock past 240Mhz I would have been really dissapointed.

One thing to note when buying a 270Mhz guaranteed model is that only the main processor is tested to this. eg if you use Picodrive with single processor it will overclock fine (mine is actually stable up to 290Mhz). However switch to dual processor and mine won't get much higher than 240mhz before freaking out. Not that picodrive requires this much anyway it was just a good way of testing.
 

vampire8bit

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Some of the 275mhz were coming back as only going to 273-274 etc. so it is safter to just say 270mhz.

this is a concern if I go for a 270mhz unit, I may only get one which goes up to 270-274mhz stable and I was nearly ready to order one that was stable at 275mhz, which may have clocked stable at even higher, some of the 275 units can probably actually run stable higher than that.
 
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Alex.

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I was hoping "The world of marketing!" would stay away from this community.
My thoughts exactly, those very words make me sick, just reading them. When it's become such that marketing = deceit, something's gone wrong.

What do you mean you hoped the word 'marketing' would stay away from the community? CraigX runs a business that sells the GP2X and helps publish the games. He dosn't have time to earn a living as a plumber or any other way than through his business. Any business that hopes to make ANY money needs marketing to some degree so that was quite a stupid thing to say. And as for the people complaining about cherry-picked units; GPH make the GP2X and therefor if anything in the MK2s (like the ability to overclock) isn't as good as the MK1s then it's down to them not him, he only resells them. And it really is up to people's tastes, some people see it as a waste of cash, personaly if I didn't already have a 1st edition I'd opt for it. The extra speed isn't just for emulation, some of us like to experiment and see how far we can push it to see how it can REALLY perform. Stop bitching, CraigX and EvilDragon have pretty much built the community from the GP32 days and should be treated with respect. If you don't like that then get yourself a monochrome gameboy or a jizmondo :p
Damn shut up.

Of course they run a business, Einstein, and they therefore have to make money. But that doesn't mean that they should follow the business model employed by so many suck-ass companies, ie. treating their customers like ignorant dumb fucks, who are willing to pay anything for whatever they put up. Branding a cherry-picked GP2X as the "275mhz version" really sends the message that they're willing to take advantage of people's ignorance and sell them a fantasy product. Why should this community, too, be stained by deceiving 'marketing'? Do those extra $30 really mean more than keeping your integrity?

You're talking about respect, give me a break. Since when does respect have anything to do with speaking your mind and standing up when something doesn't seem right?

- Alex

Edit:
Please note that this does not mean that I don't appreciate the tremendous efforts that resellers did for the community, especially Ed whose archive is the backbone for all GP2X goodness.
 
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Epicenter

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Some of the 275mhz were coming back as only going to 273-274 etc. so it is safter to just say 270mhz.

this is a concern if I go for a 270mhz unit, I may only get one which goes up to 270-274mhz stable and I was nearly ready to order one that was stable at 275mhz, which may have clocked stable at even higher, some of the 275 units can probably actually run stable higher than that.

That is the problem. No testing is perfect because overclocking is running hardware outside of rated operational spec. There is no guarantee of its performance after Craig tests it in MAME or godathell's utility or what have you-- other programs may fail to function when they exploit a function or method of use of the processors that causes a fault. Processors can also become more or less stable at a given speed over time for seemingly no reason at all.

A real stress-test is done by the manufacturer of the processor, usually at absurd temperatures like 80C that are outside of spec, and it is much more stressful than running a program overnight. The only person who can make a clockrate tolerance assertion is ARM. ARM designed the core and its design is rated for 200 MHz. MagicEyes built that core into ther SoC based on ARM's IP specifications. They cannot make this assertion. GPH packaged MagicEyes' chip based on ARM's core in a console. They can also not make this assertion. Craig doesn't even work for GPH, he just buys and resells their GP2X units. He is THREE TIMES removed from the authority to assert the valid clockrate of the ARM920T/940T processors, so these ratings are invalid. Charging extra money for them borders on fraud. Calling the unit a '275 MHz version' IS fraud.

EDIT: This is not to even mention that at 275 MHz, the RAM is clocked at 137.5 MHz, and at 270 MHz, it is clocked at 135 MHz. The RAM in the system is rated for 133 MHz by the manufacturer, which would be Hynix or Eorex. This is also run out of spec when the ARM920T/940T clock exeeds 266 MHz.
 
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Skies

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When I bought my gp2x I looked through the forums to see whether the 275 version was really worth the extra money. After reading the forum I realised that it was just an over clocked version.

It should have stated on the website that it is the same as the cheaper model except this one has been tested to run at 275 and has proved stable. It should also have stated that this shortens the battery life.

You shouldn't expect people to know it doesn't run at 275 out of the box when itstates on the site that it's the same as the cheap version but runs at 275. And when other web sites run reviews or adverts they should be corrected when they say they are now selling 275 models.

Anyone unhappy with a purchase of the premium pack could be entitled under the sales of goods act for a full refund on the basis it doesn't fit the description on the website.

I'd reccomend the basic pack as mine gets to around 250 no problem. Maybe higher I haven't tested it properly. Having read the forums though a lot of other people who bought the basic pack get similar results too. So for the extra money you aren't getting much more than what you would get normally.
 

subin

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jesus alex, calm down. it's $30 or whatever.

i mean seriously. some of you get so riled up in these posts it's just hilarious :lol:
 

Epicenter

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Just $30 .. hah. With how many GP2X units Craig sells, that could be tens of thousands more a year. Or hundreds of thousands, potentially. $30 is completely unreasonable. That's a lot of profit coming from deception.
 

Zeladin

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Want more power?
The Power pack is the same as above but runs at 270MHZ and comes with a Screen Protector.
This definitely isn't clear enough. I'm not so worried about the markup for the testing, but it should be advertised as something like "tested to a stable overclock of 270". I would also have doubts about the long term health of the actual chip, which clearly, can not be tested overnight. I'd also hope that craig was fairly prompt about replacing units, if there are issues.

I can't see why a processor manufacturer would so under-rate their processor, logic would suggest that you can't get something for nothing. It would be different if ARM where offering a 'faster' model. The practise is common with chip manufacturers, hence the range of different speeds available eg, amd 3000+ 3200+ etc. But as epicentre points out they use very thorough tests.

I think particularly because of the confusion that craig should clarify that what it is that he's selling, is an extra overnight test done on a gp2x that proves in a certain circumstance that it can run at 270mhz without crashing. Even a simple link to the details of his test next to the 'power pack'.

I got my Gp2x from gp2x.co.uk, I haven't had any difficulties, and craig certainly seems to be very helpful to his customers on these boards mostly. I certainly wouldn't demonize him over this, but I do think clarification is in order.

hmm now what was this thread about again?
 

Epicenter

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Want more power?
The Power pack is the same as above but runs at 270MHZ and comes with a Screen Protector.
This definitely isn't clear enough. I'm not so worried about the markup for the testing, but it should be advertised as something like "tested to a stable overclock of 270". I would also have doubts about the long term health of the actual chip, which clearly, can not be tested overnight. I'd also hope that craig was fairly prompt about replacing units, if there are issues.
The CPUs won't burn out. They use very little power and emit very little heat (practically none.) But they may not prove to be stable in all tasks, or not run quite as fast the next time they're tested. The amount of time they run, the temperature of the unit, the type of batteries used, and many other factors (apparently the positioning of the planets :rolleyes: ) can impact how stable the unit is at any given clock.

I can't see why a processor manufacturer would so under-rate their processor, logic would suggest that you can't get something for nothing.
Because there may be more demand for 200 MHz parts than say, 266 or 300 MHz. Also, they generally go a bit under as insurance in case the chip worked great at 266 MHz in burn-in testing.. making it run at 200 by default is pretty much guaranteeing that down the road there won't be a stability issue.
 
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senquack

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I can't see why a processor manufacturer would so under-rate their processor, logic would suggest that you can't get something for nothing. It would be different if ARM where offering a 'faster' model. The practise is common with chip manufacturers, hence the range of different speeds available eg, amd 3000+ 3200+ etc. But as epicentre points out they use very thorough tests

I remember browsing through either Arm's or Magiceye's site (probably Arm's) and this specific CPU was offered in two different fab's, either .8 or .6, I'm guessing, and the smaller one was spec'd for 240mhz+. Ours isn't the nicer one. But companies can move their production to other fabs at points. Varying levels of quality in one or the other would, along with pure chance, would allow some chips to run higher than others. Remember the Celeron 300A that would overclock to 450mhz out of the box with no voltage increase? Those chips never died at the higher speed, and neither will ours.

There's no added risk to running it at a higher speed. We're just getting lucky with a manufacturer that has a good fab and Q/A (though the technology is obsolete by PC CPU manufacturer's standards).
 
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Zeladin

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Senor Quack said:
Remember the Celeron 300A that would overclock to 450mhz out of the box with no voltage increase?
No.. but I remember my Radeon 9550 that could clock to 9600 speeds (of course the GPU was a 9600 :) ). Yeah it's true sometimes you can get something for nothing, I won't deny that. But i still think ARM must be under-rating their processor if a 240 clock is stable on about all systems. And even they could be seperating the processors into a series of banding's(eg 200, 240, 266..), though perhaps the testing/cherry picking, of industry standard is not financially attractive.
epicenter said:
Because there may be more demand for 200 MHz parts than say, 266 or 300 MHz
Yes, perhaps, on account of battery life, I would guess, but it still begs the question why they don't practise the cherry picking also to offer higher profit, higher clocked ones.

I can accept in the case of the ARM its not going to fry, and that the only issue might be stability, and perhaps maintained stability. But is it still not true to say that the processor has degraded, if it can no longer maintain a clock at a certain level?

Anyway all of that hardly matters, just that it should be stated clearly on the gp2x.co.uk site that it is an overclock and not a newer/ different version, or be ambiguous enough to allow that interpretation. Besides for the kind of person that generally wants to buy a gp2x, is overclock not one of those turn-on words? :) As regards the charge for the service, well if the consumer is prepared to pay it.. Of course I'm not! I'm the kind of person that buys all the cut down products like a 9550 or a gp2x instead of a ds or psp. ;) ... or a 9600xt off ebay.

Goodnight all the same, I'll stop my scare-mongering now, hope to see a big massive banner on gp2x.co.uk saying "OVERCLOCKABLE TO 270mhz - GUARENTEED STABLE FOR AT LEAST 1YR*!!!!!! -EXTRA £10 ONLY" :)

*Or replacement
 
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Gadget

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This was bound to happen wasn't it, I just find it sad that you edited the October 8th news post to say 270, but left the '27x-VERSION' there. You overcharge people for cherry-picked GP2X's, that's just plain bullocks.

- Alex


I agree, this is an unfair practice. What next??? Are you going to perform spectrum analysis tests on the audio output and determine which is capable of 5% more db output with less noise due to tolerances in audio circuitry? Maybe test the LCD displays to determine which gives 2 - 3% better contrast / colour, or maybe test the battery life and quote £10 extra for a GP2X that lasts 20 minutes more at 200Mz than a 'normal' unit.

It's a shambles. I had a lot of respect for gp2x.co.uk until this rip 'off pay a bit more to get an overclockable GP2X'. Can you imagine PC hardware companies like Scan or Dell charging more for an AMD or Intel CPU depending on how fast they have tested overclock ability??

I am sure it goes against the trades description act, or some by-law related to advertising. Nothing personal, just feel ripped off that you were probably cherry picking all along. Could explain why mines only 250Mhz max...
 
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I don't have an issue with charging extra for a pre-tested stable 270MHz GP2X(It's up to the user to buy it or not after all). I just think the wording should be clearer. a LOT of people seem to have been misinformed that it's a brand new model that has a native clock speed of 270MHz...
 

Epicenter

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No.. but I remember my Radeon 9550 that could clock to 9600 speeds (of course the GPU was a 9600 :) ). Yeah it's true sometimes you can get something for nothing, I won't deny that. But i still think ARM must be under-rating their processor if a 240 clock is stable on about all systems. And even they could be seperating the processors into a series of banding's(eg 200, 240, 266..), though perhaps the testing/cherry picking, of industry standard is not financially attractive.
That's exactly what happens and it's a very common practice. It is not fraudulent because ARM can make the assertion of clockrate rating due to their rigorous testing practices and the fact that they designed the processors themselves. At any rate, MagicEyes just uses ARM's reference 'IP' design for the ARM920T/940T and builds processors based on that, ARM doesn't physically make MagicEyes' cores. They do, however, assert what the architecture is spec'd to scale to in terms of clockrate.

epicenter said:
Because there may be more demand for 200 MHz parts than say, 266 or 300 MHz
Yes, perhaps, on account of battery life, I would guess, but it still begs the question why they don't practise the cherry picking also to offer higher profit, higher clocked ones.

I can accept in the case of the ARM its not going to fry, and that the only issue might be stability, and perhaps maintained stability. But is it still not true to say that the processor has degraded, if it can no longer maintain a clock at a certain level?
The CPU's not 'rotting' so to speak. It's just that overclocking provides erratic performance because of its chaotic nature. The processor is running outside of spec, so its behavior or stability is far from linear.

Anyway all of that hardly matters, just that it should be stated clearly on the gp2x.co.uk site that it is an overclock and not a newer/ different version, or be ambiguous enough to allow that interpretation. Besides for the kind of person that generally wants to buy a gp2x, is overclock not one of those turn-on words? :)
The problem is Craig likely doesn't change this for a long time, if at all. I will lean towards 'at all'. His business has a long history of dishonesty; old lies from GPH are still on the site like supported media formats that don't work on the GP2X at all. The site's overcharged people grossly for faulty currency exchange and Craig refused to refund them, he's sold one forum patron I know (whose name I won't mention without his consent) a DS with dead pixels, and when the person asked for a replacement, he refused stating Nintendo would not take back the unit with a dead pixel. In actuality, this was a lie, Nintendo will take back and replace any unit with even ONE dead pixel. Sony won't, but Nintendo will. I won't get into how many times Craig lied to me and the rest of the team to which I belong, most of what he stated prior to and during the initial GP2X launch was false or uninformed. So I won't count on change.

In an ideal situation, he'd have a change of heart and terminate the separation of units by clockrate because this practice guarantees anyone who does not buy the more expensive unit will get one that overclocks worth jack shit-- because all the ones that passed the test ended up in the marked-up pile. Better off just buying from someone else for the real retail price rather than support what is boiling down to more and more of a scam operation.
 
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Epicenter

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Being charged a significantly larger amount of money for the 'exchange of currency' when buying a '2x on gp2x.co.uk with anything other than GBP, and when inquired about, the response was that this was the true exchange rate. It wasn't, though, as XE.com or Google would tell you-- yet no refund was granted for the money they made off the fraudulent transaction. Intentionally manipulated exchange rate setting on the online ordering system? Or negligance and laziness? Probably the latter. But that's not an attribute I want to see when I throw over $200 at a company.
 
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