NES TMNT is not that hard!

[diligentcircle]

A bit annoyed that some people talk about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for the NES, or at least certain aspects of it, like it's excruciatingly hard or impossible, I made a video where I play through the game without difficulty. No continues used, only one try, and no frustration. Here's the first part of the video (split into 3 parts because one of my downfall parodies was previously flagged as copyright infringement a while back, removing unlimited upload lengths for my account even though I sent a counter-notification. Grr...):


http://youtu.be/JJbEQvM-BZY


I also recorded myself as I was playing the game with a camera in the hopes that I don't get stupid people whining "u used teh emulator u prolly just used save states cheetur!!!" For the record, no save states were ever used and I didn't even use such simple tools as turbo. I also made some comments while the video was shot just to make it more meaningful than "proof that it's real". First part of the commentary is here (split into 4 videos because of the 15-minute time limit):


http://youtu.be/WJbNHLYSu0Y


Comments? Questions? Compliments? Complaints? Accusations?


EDIT: Whoops, sorry for the double-post. I swear I looked in the Other Consoles section, but I didn't see it there at first. :unsure:

 

[Null]

 

[kaprikawn]

The water bit where you have to disable the bombs is virtually impossible to get through without losing most of your life on at least a couple of turtles.

 

[diligentcircle]

The water bit where you have to disable the bombs is virtually impossible to get through without losing most of your life on at least a couple of turtles.

I did much worse on the water level in this run than I usually do. In my test run, Raph and Don both left with (almost) full health, and Leo and Mike were at half health. In this run, I made a lot of mistakes. And despite that, Don was still at full health, and both Leo and Mike were at half health.


More importantly, though, as I alluded to in the commentary, using Leo and Mike until they get to half health results in the damage being not that bad since they gain power from that. Also, Raph isn't very useful in the next area, so it doesn't really matter if Raph has low health. So if you end up with Leo and Mike at half health and Raph at very little health (like what I had in this run), you won't be hindered at all in the next area.

 

[bzar]

The water bit is NOT impossible. I played it several times through without losing one turtle as a kid. I also finished the game. Then again, I think I AM the only person to ever finish Wars: Commando without cheats too

 

[diligentcircle]

Then again, I think I AM the only person to ever finish Wars: Commando without cheats too

Lots of people have trouble with Bowser's Last Stand, but I can beat it easily. Being the developer of a game gives you an edge. Probably because you have to playtest it a lot.

 

[bzar]

Have you played the later levels? Levels 6 and 8 are quite tough compared to the first 5.


EDIT: Also the game takes under an hour to play through total if you don't screw around, so password/save etc systems seem like overkill. Think of it like a coin-op

 

[diligentcircle]

Have you played the later levels? Levels 6 and 8 are quite tough compared to the first 5.

Nope.


And on second thought, it is that hard, so never mind.

 

[Mr Rob]

I agree with the thread, TMNT isn't that bad. There certainly are sections that are difficult. The water stage I can usually get through on one turtle, and near the end of the game where you're squeezing through the very narrow part in the Technodrome just before you get to Shredder is pretty terrible.


But these are both sections that simply require practice, and you'll eventually figure it out. Which was common for NES-era games. Lots of practice and continues, and you could eventually get through.

 

[Fzero]

Bit of a hairy moment at 1:00 in on the third video, done a nice switcheroo there to keep alive.

 

[Exophase]

What are you trying to say exactly? Of course the game isn't impossible, I don't know who believed such a thing.. but if they did, there were many playthroughs on Youtube already. "Hard" is very subjective. My question is, how much time did it take for you to be this proficient at it? How many times did you die in the mean time? Because you seem to have a pretty specific and well tuned strategy that would only come with a lot of experience that comes with an awful lot of repetition.


A lot of people find Battletoads to be a difficult NES game. I don't find it easy by any stretch of the imagination but I can beat it consistently. This took a lot of practice and a lot of dying. But the reason why I kept playing it is because IMO it's a good game, and improving in it felt rewarding, to the point where I didn't mind as much playing some of the same stuff several times. I tried TMNT a few times and while I think I could eventually be good enough to beat it's hard to want to because the game feels so awful to me. The controls are poor, the graphics can get pretty ugly, there's slowdown all over the place, and the level design often demands a ton of memorization. It's the kind of game that makes it look easy when you watch someone play it like in your videos, because they've adjusted for the bad controls, they're prepared for the slowdown, and they know where to go.


There are probably some things in Battletoads that make it harder than TMNT in different ways. No matter how much you memorize the game at least some level of reflexes are needed. And no matter how much I play I don't think I'd ever get a zero death game (not saying others can't do it) because I'm bound to mess up somewhere. But it's okay because the game is really forgiving with lives. Contrast it with the Gradius games for instance, totally different kind of difficulty, because the game is pretty easy when you're totally powered up but one hit can destroy your entire playthrough.. and that's why Gradius 2 (PCE version on anything outside of easy mode) is grossly more difficult to me than Battletoads is.

 

[diligentcircle]

My question is, how much time did it take for you to be this proficient at it?

A few weeks, maybe a month.

How many times did you die in the mean time?

I don't know, probably around 10 (mostly inside the Technodrome).

Because you seem to have a pretty specific and well tuned strategy that would only come with a lot of experience that comes with an awful lot of repetition.

Not an awful lot of repetition. Hardly any repetition at all. Most of it just comes from understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the turtles.

What are you trying to say exactly?

That this game isn't as difficult as some people make it out to be. The way some people talk, you'd think it's one of the hardest games on the NES, and that's just not the case. Not even close.

 

[Mr Rob]

Most of it just comes from understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the turtles.

And for those unfamiliar with the game....


Donatello. Strong Turtle. Use for everything.


Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael: Weak turtles. Pretty much cannon fodder and special weapon holders.

 

[Exophase]

A few weeks, maybe a month.

I dunno, that sounds like a lot of time for a game that has maybe 30 minutes of core gameplay. Take an NES game of comparable length and average difficulty like SMB1. How long would it take a decent gamer to be able to play through it without warps, a few days? I don't think Contra or Super C took that long for me to beat and people often consider them hard.


Really can't imagine you died only 10 times while playing it up to a month, and that it involved hardly no repetition. Unless you only played a few minutes a day?


I don't think I could play this game for weeks, that sounds like torture..

 

[diligentcircle]

I dunno, that sounds like a lot of time for a game that has maybe 30 minutes of core gameplay. Take an NES game of comparable length and average difficulty like SMB1. How long would it take a decent gamer to be able to play through it without warps, a few days? I don't think Contra or Super C took that long for me to beat and people often consider them hard.

I didn't play it nonstop. I played it casually, beat it for the first time 2 weeks after I first picked it up, then beat it a couple more times after that. Then I put it down for a while (I'm not sure how long) and picked it up again 2 days ago and beat it twice in a row (the second time was the recorded one).

Really can't imagine you died only 10 times while playing it up to a month, and that it involved hardly no repetition. Unless you only played a few minutes a day?

The first time, I used save states to play it over the course of a few days. Most of the deaths were when I was practicing in the Technodrome; since having to start the entire game all over again doesn't make it any harder, I used a save state at the beginning of the inside of the Technodrome while I figured out how to beat it properly. The rest of the game isn't that hard, so I don't really remember dying at all there, though I probably died a couple times.


Note that when I talk about "deaths", I'm really talking about game overs. An individual turtle death in TMNT is a lot different than deaths in most games. The continues (you have two of them) are far more analogous to "lives" in most games.

I don't think I could play this game for weeks, that sounds like torture..

I played it because it's fun. If I didn't think it was fun, I wouldn't have played it.

 

[Exophase]

I played it because it's fun. If I didn't think it was fun, I wouldn't have played it.

Let's face it, that's what a lot of this comes down to You just like the game more than a lot of us. And you think if people gave it more of a chance they'd be able to beat it. Maybe you're right. But they'd have to like it first.


One thing though, I think a lot of TMNT's reputation was cemented a really long time ago. Like, before anyone had emulators. So they couldn't use save states to practice the game. You may have a point that having to replay easier parts of the game doesn't add to an intrinsic difficulty value. But it makes it take a lot longer to practice and it makes it a lot more frustrating, which probably contributes a lot to how difficult people find the game. And there's some objective truth to this, because no matter how patient you are you are going to get fatigued constantly redoing something. I would daresay practicing with savestates didn't just make gaining proficiency in the game easier but improved your overall opinion of the game.


Personally, I prefer to play games without even practicing with savestates, although I have for a few. Not counting where the game gives unlimited continues, then I'll save state and pick up from there later.

 

[diligentcircle]

One thing though, I think a lot of TMNT's reputation was cemented a really long time ago. Like, before anyone had emulators. So they couldn't use save states to practice the game. You may have a point that having to replay easier parts of the game doesn't add to an intrinsic difficulty value. But it makes it take a lot longer to practice and it makes it a lot more frustrating, which probably contributes a lot to how difficult people find the game. And there's some objective truth to this, because no matter how patient you are you are going to get fatigued constantly redoing something. I would daresay practicing with savestates didn't just make gaining proficiency in the game easier but improved your overall opinion of the game.

I'm kind of in agreement here on the base facts. The only problem is that most people complaining about difficulty don't even mention the Technodrome; they talk about either the dam (which isn't hard at all) or the one sewer level (again, not all that hard).


TMNT's bad reputation probably comes from much more trivial things than difficulty and frustration, like not (over)using the 80's show theme for everything (though it does use that theme, after you beat the bosses and after the dam) and not being like the arcade game released around that time.