MIPI woes, good design ideas and headaches

[Klumpen]

Its easier to use letters instead of symbols because many games just have text to describe their game controls. Would be more effort to use graphical symbols there imho. What's wrong with A B C D X Y?  "Keep It Simple Stupid.

Why not just stay standard, a layout most people are use to?

What standard?

The problem I got with every controller but my Saitek is, that XYAB are somewhere else every time, the SNES X (Up) is in a different place than the GameCube X (right), the Xbox X (left), or the Playstation X and the Pandora X (down) for example.

The only real solution would be direction labeling and not guessing in which direction XYAB point this time...

 

[Natsu]

What's wrong with A B C D X Y?

More like ABC XYZ.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

which are typically saved in ASCII

GCC defaults to UTF-8, using that it's actually not that much of an issue. However, the algorithms used to work with the affected strings need to be able to support UTF-8 to some degree as well.

I'm not really thinking about the compiler, I am more thinking about the editor and source control. Some default to ASCII, most support UTF-8 if asked, however some don't support UTF-8 at all. And yes, definitely the algorithms need to support UTF8, and the UTF8 characters need to be available at runtime, and so on..

 

[Natsu]

What standard?

The XYAB buttons.

 

[_wb_]

which are typically saved in ASCII

GCC defaults to UTF-8, using that it's actually not that much of an issue. However, the algorithms used to work with the affected strings need to be able to support UTF-8 to some degree as well.

I'm not really thinking about the compiler, I am more thinking about the editor and source control. Some default to ASCII, most support UTF-8 if asked, however some don't support UTF-8 at all. And yes, definitely the algorithms need to support UTF8, and the UTF8 characters need to be available at runtime, and so on..

Yes, for various reasons we certainly do need button names that can be expressed in plain ASCII. The question is: do they need to be single character names like A B C, or is it OK if the ASCII rendering of their name takes multiple characters like START, SELECT, PYRA, DELTA, PI, OMEGA, CHI ?

If single character names are a must, then A B C X Y Z or A B C D X Y are the only options; we can't use numbers because that would be confusing, we can't use ASCII symbols like + * # because that would also be confusing. The main problem I see with using normal letters is that there is probably not going to be any sane way to keep the 4 Pandora buttons like they are and add 2 extra buttons to that. It depends on where the extra buttons would be, but e.g. something like this:

     Z

  Y   C

A  B

  X

or something like this:

Z Y

A    B

C X

looks really, really weird to me. Also, every console controller seems to have a different way to label ABXY, so for emulation it's kind of confusing to have to remember things like "If the game says A, then I have to press X; if it says B I have to press A; if it says Y I have to press B etc etc", and for another system it's different again. For me such things are easier to remember if two different symbol sets are used.

Something like this:

      Σ

   Δ   Ψ


Π   Ω


   X

would look quite cool imo. The X is the only one that looks the same on Pyra and Pandora, but that's enough to find your way if you're used to the Pandora way. For Playstation emulation (including PSP), these symbols are quite good because Pi and Omega are "close enough" to box and circle. For emulation of consoles that use ABXY, it's hopeless anyway, but at least it's less confusing if the buttons have different symbols than if they have the same symbols in a different order.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

Some default to ASCII, most support UTF-8 if asked, however some don't support UTF-8 at all.

You mean ISO-8859-1, not ASCII. I'd really like to see any program working with plain ASCII.Especially on Linux pretty much everything supports UTF-8 and uses it as the default.

Anyways, you could still try your luck with C's Unicode escape sequence.

 

[comradekingu]

P Y R A  ?

 

[Klumpen]

What standard?

The XYAB buttons.

I know that you mean these, but it's strange to call this a standard, if they are always in a different order, therefore my selfquote under the rhetorical question.

It would be easier for me to have directional arrows on these buttons, because if a SNES-Emulator tells me to press X, then I know that he means the upper action button, if a PSX emulator tells me to press X, I know now that he means the bottom one (still have no clue about the other ones), but if there are contradictional labels on my buttons, then it's just even more confusing.

 

[Exophase]

Nor have I, but many emulated games will tell you which buttons to press and that will (naturally) refer to the emulated layout.

I've also once had someone (I think it may have been Askarus) tell me to press B to do something in a DS game in DraStic, meaning DS B which is Pandora X.

Yeah but those two things will be the case no matter what the buttons are called. Unless we want to put little displays in the buttons and have the labels change with the program, and please no one seriously suggest that.

 

[fusion_power]

Foam isn't really a solution, only the spring is.

And that spring needs to be included in the case design somehow, which makes it expensive.

Depends how clever it is designed, maybe I try something in Blender, have ideas that are cheap and still work for sure. You even could jsut GLUE a cheap leaf spring at one side for better fitting, maybe just a little notch in the case is needed for this, notthing complicated.

But why should such foam or spring even be necessary, when the case design can simply be made to properly fit the battery?

Because it's the (Pandora) battery itself that causes most of the trouble, they have worse tolerances than the case so I doubt you can adjust the case to fit the battery if every battery has a slightly different size and does even change it's size due heat/charging etc. So a to tight fitting case will cause more trouble than benefit. Better use a solution that can handle all these small size differences from battery to battery.

 

[WizardStan]

The squishy bits of the battery vary from one to the next but not the contact point. One end of the battery contains a rigid board for the contacts and protection circuitry, that shouldn't be any different between batteries. Tighter tolerance around this would solve all the problems.

 

[EvilDragon]

The squishy bits of the battery vary from one to the next but not the contact point. One end of the battery contains a rigid board for the contacts and protection circuitry, that shouldn't be any different between batteries. Tighter tolerance around this would solve all the problems.

And that's exactly what we're doing

But why should such foam or spring even be necessary, when the case design can simply be made to properly fit the battery?

Because it's the (Pandora) battery itself that causes most of the trouble, they have worse tolerances than the case so I doubt you can adjust the case to fit the battery if every battery has a slightly different size and does even change it's size due heat/charging etc. So a to tight fitting case will cause more trouble than benefit. Better use a solution that can handle all these small size differences from battery to battery.

The PCB is exactly the same size on every battery - and that's also the part where the contacts are on.

 

[God Ginrai]

For the record, I think that any thing that is not both easily recognizable and easily typed on any keyboard is not acceptable for button labels. This rules all greek characters out. Believe it or not, but a lot of people do not know what those symbols are called, and thus would have no way to type it.

Shapes could work,   but as stated, there is an inherent ambiguity with using numbers or letters due to the fact that there are already buttons with those names.

I would use different colors and no symbols... "press the red key".

Unless implemented properly, this could be horrible for color-blind users.

dice style

 I actually would be very happy to have a dice-style layout on the buttons. (black buttons with white dots could look really nice) It would also give a very distinct feel to the keys.

Another option could be a playing card labelling system. Some examples:

• A, K, Q, J, Black Jo, White/Colored Jo
• A, K, Q, J, Spade, Heart
• Spade, Heart, Club, Diamond, Ace, Joker
• Spade, Heart, Club, Diamond, Black, Red (this is probably my favorite one)

-God Ginrai

 

[Ziz]

we can't use numbers because that would be confusing

...

      Σ

   Δ   Ψ

Π   Ω

   X

Sorry for shortening your post, but it was quite long, and only these two parts are important for my point.
I like the idea of greek letters. However with most games (or at least the fonts they use,) this will not work and something like (PSI) sucks. Don't forget: not everybody knows the names of the greek letters.

Furthermore you didn't explain, why numbers are a bad idea. In my opinion numbers are not worse than letters. E.g. if a game tells me to press a to jump, I have a good chance, that not the button (A) is meant but the keyboard button a (most of the time because of bad ports). However very few games or applications use the numbers, so in fact this is less confusing than with letters.

 

[WizardStan]

Unless implemented properly, this could be horrible for color-blind users

The crimson key, the scarlet key, the auburn key, the maroon key, the lava key, and the green key.

 

[Klumpen]

      No    X1

We      Ea   X2

      So

North, South, West, East, Xtra1, Xtra2

Recognizable, easy to translate to other console layouts, easy to type

and no more blind guessing! This should have been standard decades ago.

You do not even have to look at the pad to know what to press this way and can stay focused on the screen.

 

[EvilDragon]

Please don't forget:

Does every standard font have these symbols included?

Because if not, devs could not use any font they wanted to (or would have to use pictures inside the text for the buttons).

 

[God Ginrai]

Please don't forget:

Does every standard font have these symbols included?

Because if not, devs could not use any font they wanted to (or would have to use pictures inside the text for the buttons).

That's why I suggested the playing card versions. The suits of a standard deck are widely known.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Spade, Heart, Club, Diamond, Black, Red is the best non-alphabetic option. Plus, the characters ♠, ♥, ♣, and ♦ are in ISO 8859-1, so they are likely in most fonts that will be used. And in the case that they arent, they can refer to them as Spade, Heart, Club, and Diamond.

-God Ginrai

 

[EvilDragon]

That's why I suggested the playing card versions. The suits of a standard deck are widely known.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Spade, Heart, Club, Diamond, Black, Red is the best non-alphabetic option.

Are these available as symbols in any font as well?

Most people in Germany have no idea what "Spade" and "Club" is, since when playing cards you always use the localized names (which would be "Pik" and "Kreuz" in this case, which sounds totally different).

It's probably the same for other countries as well.

Many will recognize the symbols, but won't know what they're called in English.

 

[Klumpen]

I am still confused with Pandoras controls because I grew up with SNES and when it tells me to press "X" I want to press the north button and when it wants me to press "B" I want to press the south button etc...

I have to look at the controls too often because of this and since they are black, I cannot read it fast enough if at all (not in a bright room).

Whose Idea was

    Y

A      B

    X

anyway?

I just had to get my Pandora to make this post, because this order doesn't want to go into my head.