Micro USB plz?

[Neelix]

I think you both missed my point.

I want to be able to use the OTG port in device mode and a USB 2 device on the Type A port.

If the data lines of the type A port are linked to the data lines in the OTG port,  how can I use both at once?

- Neelix

 

[Grench]

So what exactly is the benefit of having a USB type A alongside the OTG? What problem does it solve that can't be solved by just having the OTG port and an adapter the way it is now?

Being able to insert a male USB 3.0 type A device without using an adapter.

People don't want to have to use an adapter to get to that port because for whatever reason the USB 2.0 host port isn't fast enough.

I think you both missed my point.

I want to be able to use the OTG port in device mode and a USB 2 device on the Type A port.

If the data lines of the type A port are linked to the data lines in the OTG port,  how can I use both at once?

- Neelix

The design above has two type A ports.  

One is USB 3.0 and signal wires tied to the microUSB 3.0 OTG port.

One is USB 2.0 and is embedded within the eSATAp port - which is combined eSATA and USB 2.0.

 

[God Ginrai]

Would it be possible to have a wide micro-AB USB 3.0 port, and an eSATAp port which can be used as both a USB 2.0 host port and a powered eSATA port?

That is a fantastic idea - and the SOC -does- have SATA on it.

So - to recap ports on the back of the Pyra, we have:

1. Power barrel connector.

2. USB 3.0 type A with data lines tied to #3 on micro-relays to cut the data lines from #3 when a device is plugged into #2.

3. microUSB 3.0 OTG. Electrically isolated from #2 so it can still charge the device

4. eSATAp. Combined USB 2.0 and eSATA connector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESATAp

5. HDMI or microHDMI or DisplayPort++ (Dual-Mode DisplayPort) or other video output port

6. (maybe) something to access the UARTs or GPIO through the case.

If you are going to split the OTG into A and micro, why wouldn't you do A and B instead? You don't need host on the micro port if you have it on the main port.

Also, that seems like a bit too much for the back. How about this?

• Power barrel connector.
• eSATAp for USB host and eSATA
• HDMI, microHDMI, DisplayPort++ or some other video out port
• USB-B 3.0 for USB slave (gadget mode)
• (maybe) USB-A 3.0 split along w/ the B from the OTG using Grench's micro-relay solution.

-God Ginrai

 

[Neelix]

The design above has two type A ports.

One is USB 3.0 and signal wires tied to the microUSB 3.0 OTG port.

One is USB 2.0 and is embedded within the eSATAp port - which is combined eSATA and USB 2.0.

Oh I see what you are getting at now.   I missed that you effectively had 2 type A ports in the design.

That being said, while I could see the appeal of doing it that way,  I rather suspect that space on the PCB is going to be at a premium. If adding a full size USB3 port like that was going to mean sacrificing other features I think I'd rather ED go the route of just bundling the USB3 OTG adapter.

- Neelix

 

[Grench]

Would it be possible to have a wide micro-AB USB 3.0 port, and an eSATAp port which can be used as both a USB 2.0 host port and a powered eSATA port?

That is a fantastic idea - and the SOC -does- have SATA on it.


So - to recap ports on the back of the Pyra, we have:


1. Power barrel connector.


2. USB 3.0 type A with data lines tied to #3 on micro-relays to cut the data lines from #3 when a device is plugged into #2.


3. microUSB 3.0 OTG. Electrically isolated from #2 so it can still charge the device


4. eSATAp. Combined USB 2.0 and eSATA connector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESATAp


5. HDMI or microHDMI or DisplayPort++ (Dual-Mode DisplayPort) or other video output port


6. (maybe) something to access the UARTs or GPIO through the case.

If you are going to split the OTG into A and micro, why wouldn't you do A and B instead? You don't need host on the micro port if you have it on the main port.


Also, that seems like a bit too much for the back. How about this?

• Power barrel connector.
• eSATAp for USB host and eSATA
• HDMI, microHDMI, DisplayPort++ or some other video out port
• USB-B 3.0 for USB slave (gadget mode)
• (maybe) USB-A 3.0 split along w/ the B from the OTG using Grench's micro-relay solution.

-God Ginrai

It doesn't work that way.  The UBS 3.0 OTG port from the SOC is -ONE- port that switches functions between host and device, not two combined into an OTG.

 

[God Ginrai]

Would it be possible to have a wide micro-AB USB 3.0 port, and an eSATAp port which can be used as both a USB 2.0 host port and a powered eSATA port?

That is a fantastic idea - and the SOC -does- have SATA on it.

So - to recap ports on the back of the Pyra, we have:

1. Power barrel connector.

2. USB 3.0 type A with data lines tied to #3 on micro-relays to cut the data lines from #3 when a device is plugged into #2.

3. microUSB 3.0 OTG. Electrically isolated from #2 so it can still charge the device

4. eSATAp. Combined USB 2.0 and eSATA connector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESATAp

5. HDMI or microHDMI or DisplayPort++ (Dual-Mode DisplayPort) or other video output port

6. (maybe) something to access the UARTs or GPIO through the case.

If you are going to split the OTG into A and micro, why wouldn't you do A and B instead? You don't need host on the micro port if you have it on the main port.

Also, that seems like a bit too much for the back. How about this?

• Power barrel connector.
• eSATAp for USB host and eSATA
• HDMI, microHDMI, DisplayPort++ or some other video out port
• USB-B 3.0 for USB slave (gadget mode)
• (maybe) USB-A 3.0 split along w/ the B from the OTG using Grench's micro-relay solution.

-God Ginrai

 It doesn't work that way.  The UBS 3.0 OTG port from the SOC is -ONE- port that switches functions between host and device, not two combined into an OTG.

What did I say that gave you the idea I thought we could split it into 2 ports that worked at the same time?

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

The design above has two type A ports.


One is USB 3.0 and signal wires tied to the microUSB 3.0 OTG port.


One is USB 2.0 and is embedded within the eSATAp port - which is combined eSATA and USB 2.0.

Oh I see what you are getting at now.   I missed that you effectively had 2 type A ports in the design.


That being said, while I could see the appeal of doing it that way,  I rather suspect that space on the PCB is going to be at a premium. If adding a full size USB3 port like that was going to mean sacrificing other features I think I'd rather ED go the route of just bundling the USB3 OTG adapter.


- Neelix

I'd be fine with it even if he made it microUSB 3.0 OTG and let us buy our own adapters if we needed it to be something else.

I -do- like the idea of having the USB 2.0 host bundled into the eSATAp port though - that would be genius.

 

[God Ginrai]

I -do- like the idea of having the USB 2.0 host bundled into the eSATAp port though - that would be genius.

Agreed. We've got eSATA available on the chip, and eSATAp exists. We should totally do this.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

Would it be possible to have a wide micro-AB USB 3.0 port, and an eSATAp port which can be used as both a USB 2.0 host port and a powered eSATA port?

That is a fantastic idea - and the SOC -does- have SATA on it.


So - to recap ports on the back of the Pyra, we have:


1. Power barrel connector.


2. USB 3.0 type A with data lines tied to #3 on micro-relays to cut the data lines from #3 when a device is plugged into #2.


3. microUSB 3.0 OTG. Electrically isolated from #2 so it can still charge the device


4. eSATAp. Combined USB 2.0 and eSATA connector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESATAp


5. HDMI or microHDMI or DisplayPort++ (Dual-Mode DisplayPort) or other video output port


6. (maybe) something to access the UARTs or GPIO through the case.

If you are going to split the OTG into A and micro, why wouldn't you do A and B instead? You don't need host on the micro port if you have it on the main port.


Also, that seems like a bit too much for the back. How about this?

• Power barrel connector.
• eSATAp for USB host and eSATA
• HDMI, microHDMI, DisplayPort++ or some other video out port
• USB-B 3.0 for USB slave (gadget mode)
• (maybe) USB-A 3.0 split along w/ the B from the OTG using Grench's micro-relay solution.

-God Ginrai

 
It doesn't work that way.  The UBS 3.0 OTG port from the SOC is -ONE- port that switches functions between host and device, not two combined into an OTG.

What did I say that gave you the idea I thought we could split it into 2 ports that worked at the same time?

-God Ginrai

Oh, sorry - didn't realize you wanted a USB 3.0 type A and a USB 3.0 Type B.

Take a good look at the USB 3.0 type B port.  It's like a 2.0 type B port with a camper stacked on top of it.  It's really really tall - like twice as tall as a USB type A connector.

I'm under the assumption we won't have that kind of thickness to the motherboard layer of the device.  If we did, that could work though.

 

[God Ginrai]

Yea, you pointed that out before. If that does turn out to be a problem, then we could always do what Binky suggested and install the port sideways.

-God Ginrai

 

[DAP]

What if I want to use the OTG port in device mode (e.g USB networking) and still use the Type A port in Host mode (e.g midi keyboard) at the same time?

Plug it into a hub plugged into the eSATAp port.
Seems to me the only issue would come if you wanted to use the OTG port in conjunction with a USB3.0 device.


edit: which I just realized would be a problem anyway because the OMAP5 only has the one USB3.0 port on it which is also the OTG port, so by design it is impossible to use it in device mode and as a USB3.0 host at the same time. You aren't losing anything.

Exactly.


Porting out the USB 3.0 port's data lines to both a microUSB 3.0 OTG and a USB 3.0 type A ports doesn't magically create a 2nd USB 3.0 wireset on the SOC. It's just a convenience idea since we couldn't seem to decide which ONE we wanted - so I thought, "Why not both?"

Because tying more than one connector to these 5 Gbps lines will add stubs to the lines (unconnected lengths of trace) that will act as antennas, to create all kinds of RFI interference, cause reflections which will distort and corrupt the signals, and more than likely give you two ports, neither of which will work at any speed.

Connect the USB3 port to only one connector, or it is unlikely to work at all.

 

[_wb_]

I think we have to give up the idea of inserting full-sized USB 3.0 devices without an adapter. If you have a USB 3.0 device, you can either use an adapter to wide micro-USB and get all the speed, or just insert it directly to the USB 2.0+eSATAp port and get "only" 35MB/s.

How about this:

- one full-sized USB 2.0 host + eSATAp port

- one wide micro-USB 3.0 OTG port, with SlimPort

The SlimPort only uses the USB 2.0 pins, but I guess you could still use the wide connector for a more robust physical attachment, helping to ensure that the cable doesn't fall out. Note that SlimPort should allow you to connect to a DP or HDMI display with only a passive cable, while charging through the same cable and while connecting some low-bandwidth peripherals (e.g. input devices) through the same cable.

In this scenario, we wouldn't even need any other port, just those two would let you do everything. I would still prefer to have a dedicated charging port (same charger as the Pandora) and maybe a dedicated video out port, for convenience and to reduce wear on the micro-USB port.

 

[bzar]

Does slimport require additional hardware? Pushing a display signal through as few lines as a usb connector has sure sounds like it needs a control chip . Still, I'd rather have mini-dp or mini-hdmi alongside the usb ports, as mentioned earlier

Slimport sounds like a solution for when you really need/want to minimize the amount of ports. Do we?

 

[_wb_]

Does slimport require additional hardware? Pushing a display signal through as few lines as a usb connector has sure sounds like it needs a control chip . Still, I'd rather have mini-dp or mini-hdmi alongside the usb ports, as mentioned earlier

Slimport sounds like a solution for when you really need/want to minimize the amount of ports. Do we?

Maybe you're right. It's probably more suitable for a smartphone than for the Pyra. Also, the cables are still relatively expensive.

Does the OMAP5 support DP? I would prefer DP over HDMI since it is technically superior and a VESA standard, but if the SoC only supports HDMI we don't have a choice.

 

[bzar]

It seems to have HDMI 1.4a straight out of pins, two DSIs (for LCDs and stuff) and one DBI-B/DPI. From my limited understanding displayport would require a control chip feeding off one of the DSI lines, while the other DSI would go to the main display. HDMI would be just about traces and a port.

EDIT: still looking into what that DBI-B/DPI can do

EDIT: OK, reading from here, the DBI is actually a more fleshed out version of the DPI, so if out main display supports DBI (or DPI) it's probably going to go there. That leaves two DSIs and the HDMI.

EDIT2: A DSI can apparently be turned into a displayport using a bridge like this.

EDIT3: It seems DPI is only for up to 800x480, so that's out of the window

 

[comradekingu]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7649/dockport-adopted-as-official-extension-to-displayport-standard with newscenter.ti.com/2013-07-31-Industrys-first-single-chip-DockPort-solution-enables-DisplayPort-USB-and-power-over-a-single-cable

Is also an alternative that has been overlooked

 

[Neelix]

I don't get why so may people want one port that does everything.   The device will be so much more versatile if power,  USB and Video out are on separate ports.  Why would you want to sacrifice that versatility for the novelty of having one port that does everything?   It boggles the mind...

- Neelix

 

[Natsu]

Well, with at least power through USB, I don't have to worry about a specific power cord.

 

[comradekingu]

More ports doing more things means more versatility.

 

[_wb_]

More ports doing more things means more versatility.

^ This. Two ways to charge is nice. Two ways to do video out could also be nice. Combining USB 2.0 with eSATAp is a good idea, since otherwise there would probably be no space for eSATA at all.

My ideal backside ports would be:

- charging jack

- full-size USB 2.0 + eSATAp

- miniDP

- wide microUSB 3.0 OTG + SlimPort

I could also live without the SlimPort, with microUSB 2.0 OTG and full-size USB 3.0 instead of the other way around, or with HDMI instead of miniDP.