Man, I saw the most depressing ad, today... (But not for the reasons you'd think.)

[Prometheus]

I shall, however, reiterate that you seriously should consider directing your meticulous nature to learning some tact.

I didn't notice you saying that before. Did I say something wrong?

I'd say "Do a backtrace and figure it out yourself, kid.", but that wouldn't be especially informative.


Your pedantry and apparent need to correct people for no apparent reason comes across quite rudely, and the behaviour that made me re-state what I'd said before came across as childish.

 

[diligentcircle]

Your pedantry and apparent need to correct people for no apparent reason comes across quite rudely

I had a point in being nitpicky, you know. Really, the complaints you've made about advertisements are (cherry-picked) nitpicks. The difference is I'm not assuming that you're making these minor mistakes because you're stupid.

the behaviour that made me re-state what I'd said before came across as childish.

What behavior? At worst, I just didn't understand what you were trying to say. I was quite frustrated with this topic mostly because both you and WizardStan were expecting me to accept your personal experience. All you kept doing (from what I can tell) was repeating variations of "it's obvious that people are getting stupider because of the education system". When that's all you're saying, how do you expect me to respond?


Then you link to a book that seems to be about how bad school is (which is completely unrelated to the topic of declining grammar) and a blog by the author which is all over the place. I ignored these at the time because all you were doing was pointing to someone else and saying "listen to him", which isn't something I can even argue against because you're not even telling me about any of his points, and more importantly, it isn't evidence of anything. Just one author's writing, which as far as I know could just be an opinion not backed in the slightest by any sort of evidence.


And only now, WizardStand says, "Oh, but there's studies!" And about that...

1) It isn't just personal observation, it's also the anecdotes and studies of university professors. Now, to be fair, there are numerous counter claims on the subject, the studies referenced are hardly concrete, but it's more than just "personal observation": there seems to be a fairly consistent remark across several schools that students coming out of high school are averaging worse on grammar tests than they used to even just 10 years ago, even if the studies can't agree on why that is.

The link to the "study" is a link to a blog post about this study with a dead link, so I can't even verify it. I tried a search of the title, but all that turned up was news articles.


The "anecdote", as you call it, is an article about why good grammar is important. It claims that grammar is on the decline because we live in "an era that worships video and disdains literature". This is not specific to the U.K. at all, and being said on this article is not evidence that the claim is true.

 

[WizardStan]

Ok, here is exactly what I'm proposing in as clear cut text as I can possibly make without any chafe: A grammar mistake made today for a large audience of adults from a company with the exact job of communication is inherently a bigger mistake than a similar mistake made 20 years ago in a product intended for a small audience of children.

 

[elwing]

My native language is seeing some absolutely horrifying anglification in my generation.

lol, one of the best one in my country are all the "Sale" message you can see everywhere... Sale in French (the local language) means "Dirty"... I guess that explain why they sell theses wares cheaper...

 

[Blue Protoman]

Ok, here is exactly what I'm proposing in as clear cut text as I can possibly make without any chafe: A grammar mistake made today for a large audience of adults from a company with the exact job of communication is inherently a bigger mistake than a similar mistake made 20 years ago in a product intended for a small audience of children.

Also, said product for children was translated by people whose first language may not even have been English.

 

[diligentcircle]

Also, said product for children was translated by people whose first language may not even have been English.

I took the liberty of actually looking at Super Metroid, with Japanese subtitles turned on. The Japanese subtitles are punctuated just about the same; there are two statements without any sort of punctuation between them, which is strictly speaking incorrect. The only difference with the Japanese subtitles is that the two statements are on their own lines (the English text is on three lines, and both statements share a word on the second line).


So no, it's not Engrish. It's either a formatting mistake or a mistake in the original writing.

 

[DaMummy]

based on when Super Metroid takes place, who are you to say that it wasnt the correct grammar for its time? and who are the other two people arguing you to say that txt speak wont be the default in Super Metroid time the same way language has changed from the anglo saxon times to todays interwebs

 

[Prometheus]

I had a point in being nitpicky, you know. Really, the complaints you've made about advertisements are (cherry-picked) nitpicks. The difference is I'm not assuming that you're making these minor mistakes because you're stupid.

A little hint: You're the one making assumptions. This very statement to which I am responding is just an assumption on your part. You're assuming that I'm assuming people are stupid, when I've even outright explained what I've been saying all along.


Your "point in being nitpicky" just comes across as rude pedantry, because you do it in other threads, too. I've noticed at least one other moderator express disdain at it once before. The "point" was lost as a result. I still don't understand what the "point" was meant to be. Were you trying to imply that I'm being paid to write copy and thus mistakes that you imagined shouldn't be occurring? (I'm not, by the way. I'm a volunteer.) If so, then there's no analogue between what you're saying here, and the subject of this thread...

What behavior? At worst, I just didn't understand what you were trying to say. I was quite frustrated with this topic mostly because both you and WizardStan were expecting me to accept your personal experience. All you kept doing (from what I can tell) was repeating variations of "it's obvious that people are getting stupider because of the education system". When that's all you're saying, how do you expect me to respond?

If you can't see it, I'm afraid I'm not going to waste time on arguing with you about it. You probably don't even realise how it came across. Just try re-reading this, this, and this (this is what I was referring to as childish - that's just how the tone came off to me, and if I am mistaken, I sincerely apologise), with the perspective of an outsider having this directed at them.


I wish you the best, onpon4.

 

[diligentcircle]

Your "point in being nitpicky" just comes across as rude pedantry, because you do it in other threads, too.

I've never been serious about anything I nitpicked, nor do I usually actually intend to make any sort of point. The other one you're referring to with Gruso was a non-serious nitpick that spiraled into a (rather funny) argument. I was never serious at all during that time, and I could not care less about the topic (whatever it was). I was so annoyed by nobody understanding this that I made a point in actually explaining that I was not being serious the next time I nitpicked something (actually, just before the topic was closed, I was going to come out and say that I wasn't being serious, because lots of people clearly didn't get it).

If you can't see it, I'm afraid I'm not going to waste time on arguing with you about it. You probably don't even realise how it came across. Just try re-reading this, this, and this (this is what I was referring to as childish - that's just how the tone came off to me, and if I am mistaken, I sincerely apologise), with the perspective of an outsider having this directed at them.

Those first two are deliberate nitpicks, as you know. My point in that was that, just as my nitpicks didn't matter, I don't think yours really do. I understood what you meant, and you understood what those advertisements meant. It just doesn't matter.


As for the third one, I guess you're referring to the "personal experience assumptions" bit. Well, that's just something that occurred to me as I was typing. The connection between education and the bad English mentioned was just an assumption, nothing more. At least, as far as I can tell. You haven't given much explanation; you just linked to a 6-year-old article which really has nothing to do with the mistakes in question, then told me to read a book about what some guy thinks about the education system.

You're the one making assumptions.

Everyone makes assumptions. You are not immune, and I have never claimed that I am not making assumptions. I make assumptions all the time, and whether you acknowledge it or not, you do, too.

 

[Prometheus]

I understood what you meant, and you understood what those advertisements meant. It just doesn't matter.

This is the crux of the whole issue, and exactly what I've been saying all along. This is the attitude that I've been trying to explain.


Now, imagine teachers (who are now graded by children, amongst other ludicrous things, as explained in the resources I previously suggested you take a look at) taking this attitude, and never correcting poor communication "because we understood what it meant, it just doesn't matter". Can you see why I find the apparent results of this a bit sad, now?

then told me to read a book about what some guy thinks about the education system.

"Some guy" being a teacher, who explains it rather better than I can due to me not being a teacher, and merely someone who feels concern about current and future generations (including my own future children, grandchildren, and so on ). I only suggested it because the books and the blog explain in great detail (usually in humourous snippets, in the case of the blog) some of the issues that appear to have directly led to the sort of thing that the thread is about.

Everyone makes assumptions. You are not immune, and I have never claimed that I am not making assumptions. I make assumptions all the time, and whether you acknowledge it or not, you do, too.

:rolleyes: Way to completely miss the point. Re-read;

The difference is I'm not assuming that you're making these minor mistakes because you're stupid.

You stated, in a manner that appears as though you're stating it as a fact, that I'm assuming people are stupid. If you don't see how this is a highly rude assumption for you to make, then I simply don't know what else to say to you.


Again, to clarify: It really is as simple as I've said; I think it's a bit sad that people who are paid money to advertise to enormous audiences write in this fashion with what appears to be increasing frequency. Due to the fact that this is a profession, which one would expect some reasonable amount of specialisation in, and the fact that money changes hands for the copy concerned to be written, I do not believe that this is on the same level as normal everyday minor errors, which I fully expect, accept, and understand. I do not think that those perpetrating these mistakes are stupid and have never said or implied that, and it's readily obvious that I think that the problem has risen from silly schemes forced into the education system that actively get in the way of teachers actually teaching effectively. I even pointed to resources that go into this in great detail.


I truly cannot explain my thoughts any more clearly. If they are not understood now, then I apologise.

 

[Tom`]

I don't necessarily disagree with Prometheus here, but I would like to point out that complaining about the literacy of the current generation as opposed to those preceding is a tradition that goes back at least as far as Socrates.


(Or so it is said. We don't have any direct record of what Socrates thought; everything we know about his teachings come from other people who wrote them down decades later. In any event, it goes back thousands of years.)


So while I deplore the sloppiness that leads to grammar and spelling errors in public communications, I am hesitant to believe (at least without more substantial evidence) that they represent a country-wide (or global, since the same thing happens in the US) trend towards illiteracy, irrespective of any particular incident.

 

[Prometheus]

I don't necessarily disagree with Prometheus here, but I would like to point out that complaining about the literacy of the current generation as opposed to those preceding is a tradition that goes back at least as far as Socrates.


(Or so it is said. We don't have any direct record of what Socrates thought; everything we know about his teachings come from other people who wrote them down decades later. In any event, it goes back thousands of years.)

I thought that that was just complaining about the younger generation in general? :lol:


I've very much had that in mind throughout this entire thread, funnily enough.

 

[iprice]

Hold on a minute - I just want to grab some popcorn

 

[Prometheus]

^ Get off my lawn!!