Majora's Mask!

[ZXDunny]

I'm trying to decide if you are joking or not... I don't think I have heard a more self important group of posts in my life, if you aren't joking.


Opinions are opinions feel free to have them, but there is no reason to make a post asserting that your opinion is fact.


2d games are fun, 3d games are fun. I prefer user driven story games myself, which tend to be 2d. Some people like to have a story read to them, which tends to be more common in 3d games. It's all preference.

There's plenty of good reason that my "opinion" (as you seem to call it) is actually hard fact - technology marches on and anyone that doesn't keep up gets left behind. Of course 3D is better, because it's newer. You see, it's not that hard to follow, is it?


Now, I'm all for people having opinions and expressing them - that's how dialog is carried out and it's the only way for people to see how correct I am when they've got their rose-tinted spectacles firmly in place. So in other words, having an "opinion" is OK, so long as you realise that if it doesn't align with established fact (as with 3D vs 2D, which I've already explained) then you'll have to change your opinion.


See? I can tell you're learning already!


D.

 

[WizardStan]

Technically Dunny is correct: 3D is strictly better than 2D. All the things that can be done in 2D can also be done in 3D (from the physical with low bit sprites, to the meta with user driven stories) but there are a lot of things in 3D that can't be replicated in a 2D system.


Now, whether the things that are currently being done WELL in 2D are likewise being done well in 3D is a matter of opinion; the fact is that 3D CAN be done just as well, and in many cases better, than 2D.

 

[Kaepora Gaebora]

"2D vs 3D" is based purely on implementation, in the eyes of the user. Of course there are more possibilities with 3D, and if that's what makes 3D better to you than that is what's better to you and is agreeable.


Dunny would probably call the xbox360 console better than the nintendo console. I think the 360 is better than the nintendo myself, but that is my opinion. The fact is that the xbox360 is technically more powerful than the nintendo, and can handle everything the nintendo can do and a lot more. Calling the xbox360 better than the nintendo is not fact. Maybe a consumer's only idea of "better" is whether or not the console has the ability to fall under the RROD. This consumer thinks that the nintendo is better. This is opinion, not fact.


This conversation is becoming silly. Facts are truths. Calling something better is not truth. Calling something faster is truth.


I'm sure you're understanding already! You are a very quick learner.

Of course 3D is better, because it's newer.

Wrong. No explanation necessary. The quote is stated as fact, not opinion...

 

[ZXDunny]

Dunny would probably call the xbox360 console better than the nintendo console. I think the 360 is better than the nintendo myself, but that is my opinion.

You're correct in this opinion, which is also a fact. The 360 is indeed better than any Nintendo console currently available - it's faster and has more powerful hardware. Therefore it is better, and the games are also better. This is an unassailable fact.

Of course 3D is better, because it's newer.

Wrong. No explanation necessary.

Unfortunately you only prove my point as to how you are wrong here - the fact is that I'm right. 3D games are better because they're technically more advanced, I'd have thought this was obvious!


D.

 

[WizardStan]

"2D vs 3D" is based purely on implementation, in the eyes of the user. Of course there are more possibilities with 3D, and if that's what makes 3D better to you than that is what's better to you and is agreeable.

3D is better than 2D, it is a fact.


If I have a ten dollar bill, and you have TWO ten dollar bills, are you in a strictly better position than I am? Of course you are, you can do all the same things that I can with my single ten, and then some.


Now, whether I take my ten dollars and turn it into spun gold, and you take your two tens and turn them into a mountain of candy, we're at a matter of opinion as to which was the better use, but the fact remains that you started off in a better position than I did. And that's why 3D is strictly better than 2D. If a developer makes poor use of the 3D, that means the developer has failed, not the technology.

 

[Kaepora Gaebora]

The 360 is indeed better than any Nintendo console currently available

Opinion.

it's faster and has more powerful hardware.

Fact.

Therefore it is better, and the games are also better.

Opinion.


Did you get all that?


->No


Yes


I'd like you to know that your input is very much appreciated.

 

[Kaepora Gaebora]

"2D vs 3D" is based purely on implementation, in the eyes of the user. Of course there are more possibilities with 3D, and if that's what makes 3D better to you than that is what's better to you and is agreeable.

3D is better than 2D, it is a fact.


If I have a ten dollar bill, and you have TWO ten dollar bills, are you in a strictly better position than I am? Of course you are, you can do all the same things that I can with my single ten, and then some.


Now, whether I take my ten dollars and turn it into spun gold, and you take your two tens and turn them into a mountain of candy, we're at a matter of opinion as to which was the better use, but the fact remains that you started off in a better position than I did. And that's why 3D is strictly better than 2D. If a developer makes poor use of the 3D, that means the developer has failed, not the technology.

So, in your mind, more money is better than less money. I agree, wholeheartedly. But this is still an opinion, and certainly not everyone agrees with it.

 

[WizardStan]

So, in your mind, more money is better than less money. I agree, wholeheartedly. But this is still an opinion, and certainly not everyone agrees with it.

No it isn't. I suppose it could be an opinion in the same way that "the sun is yellow*" or "gravity makes things fall down*" can be stated as an opinion, but challenging it requires a certain level of belief so contrary that I wouldn't even begin to argue with such a person. If someone genuinely believes that having less is better than having more with no perceivable sacrifice, then I have absolutely no way of countering such a thought.


(*)and for the sake of simplification, I'm omitting the obvious specifics.

 

[Mr Rob]

This whole "3D is better" argument is moot.


3D in and of itself does not define the game. I find Cave Story (2D) to be much more satisfying as a game than Call of Duty (3D). Hell, I'd rather play Tetris than Call of Duty.


There are so many other factors that define the quality of a game, that's just the reality of gaming. Sure, you can do more things with a 3D game, but you can't slap any 3D game against every 2D game and declare 3D to be superior, it's just dumb.

 

[Kaepora Gaebora]

If someone genuinely believes that having less is better than having more with no perceivable sacrifice, then I have absolutely no way of countering such a thought.

I agree with you, believe me. But such an opinion is possible, and is subjective.


In the case of having more money with no perceivable sacrifice, this is so because we cannot perceive any sacrifices ourselves. There are people that dislike money and provide evidence to support their opinion. Strange to me, too, but this is subjective. In the case of 2D vs 3D, this is also subjective. You provide supporting evidence as to why you believe 3D is better, but this is subjective and it is your opinion. Stating the technical details is fact. Stating why you think the technical details are better is opinion.

 

[DaMummy]

you say 3d is better then 2d, i only say "think of sonic"

 

[Kaepora Gaebora]

On the subject of MM again, it definitely seems to run smoother (surfaces and shading showing up more often) with the new version of mupen @ 800MHz. I would still call it unplayable, though, too choppy and slow for me. I can't speak for the longevity on how well it would run - I only ran around clock town a while.


But it's still running like a champ on my N64! Must remember to see banker before going back to first day...

 

[Mr Rob]

On the subject of MM again, it definitely seems to run smoother (surfaces and shading showing up more often) with the new version of mupen @ 800MHz. I would still call it unplayable, though, too choppy and slow for me. I can't speak for the longevity on how well it would run - I only ran around clock town a while.


But it's still running like a champ on my N64! Must remember to see banker before going back to first day...

Ah yes, the banker! I remember the second time you fill up your wallet and expect to get a wonderful prize from the banker. Sooo disappointing.

 

[ZXDunny]

you say 3d is better then 2d, i only say "think of sonic"

Another example of a game which only benefited from the transition to 3D - excellent stuff from Sega of late.


D.

 

[WizardStan]

I agree with you, believe me. But such an opinion is possible, and is subjective.

By this logic, every comparison is necessarily opinion. I can say "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" and back it up with a actual measurements of the light and their associated wavelengths and amplitudes, and the person I'm speaking with can say "that's just your opinion because my definition of green is different from yours".


Even something as simple and obvious as "this rock weighs more than this pebble" can be warped with the right "logic" into being false.

 

[Kaepora Gaebora]

I agree with you, believe me. But such an opinion is possible, and is subjective.

By this logic, every comparison is necessarily opinion.

No, because the subject is subjective, not objective. Obviously if the subject were weight, there's no need for an "opinionated comparison" - weight is objective and a fact.


Although, one could argue that there is some opinion that the fact is indeed true, but this is can be said for all facts, and is really negligible. This is beside the point.


I'm not trying to warp anything, and I apologize if that is how you are viewing it. In the quotes above, i feel that you warped my sentence a bit. Subjective matters can have many opinions, since this is how a person feels about the subject matter. Objective matters are facts - they are not described by "better" or "best", but by "faster" or just hard data. Comparing objective data is just a comparison and not related to opinion. Nobody is right or wrong in the 3D vs 2D debate because this is subjective, it is only how a person feels about it.

 

[WizardStan]

Nobody is right or wrong in the 3D vs 2D debate because this is subjective, it is only how a person feels about it.

I am arguing that it isn't subjective though. 2D is a subset of 3D, everything that can be done in a 2D plane can be done in a 3D environment, but not everything that can be done in 3D can be simulated in 2D. Back to the money example, if the argument is "some people think more money is bad" that is fine, they have the choice of simply throwing away that extra $10 bill, and then we would be exactly the same. If I start with one $10 bill, I don't have the option of just getting another one. In this way, having two $10 bills is still better than a single $10 bill. If anyone says it is not, they are wrong. For the sake of argument it is a magical bill that cost nothing to produce and costs nothing to throw away, but even so I still can't magically conjure up a second bill. You, starting with two bills which cost you nothing extra to gain, have the choice of using both, or if you are opposed to having more money, simply throw away the second bill for no cost and revert to having a single bill.

 

[Kaepora Gaebora]

Nobody is right or wrong in the 3D vs 2D debate because this is subjective, it is only how a person feels about it.

I am arguing that it isn't subjective though. 2D is a subset of 3D, everything that can be done in a 2D plane can be done in a 3D environment, but not everything that can be done in 3D can be simulated in 2D. Back to the money example, if the argument is "some people think more money is bad" that is fine, they have the choice of simply throwing away that extra $10 bill, and then we would be exactly the same. If I start with one $10 bill, I don't have the option of just getting another one. In this way, having two $10 bills is still better than a single $10 bill. If anyone says it is not, they are wrong. For the sake of argument it is a magical bill that cost nothing to produce and costs nothing to throw away, but even so I still can't magically conjure up a second bill. You, starting with two bills which cost you nothing extra to gain, have the choice of using both, or if you are opposed to having more money, simply throw away the second bill for no cost and revert to having a single bill.

In my mind, I'm comparing your stance to a wheelchair vs a motorized wheelchair. Please correct me if this is too silly . A motorized wheelchair can do everything a wheelchair can do, and more. But a wheelchair does not have the abilities that a motorized wheelchair has. Who is to say which chair is "better"? Choosing which is "better" is an opinion. Yes, the motorized wheelchair needs less human force to move. But what makes any object "better" is an opinion on the user.


You have an idea of what is "better", and it might go along with what is popular opinion, but "more" does not mean "better" as fact. You consider two $10 bills to be better than one, because you consider more money to be better. Although the person with two can simply throw one away, that doesn't mean it is the "better" option to everyone. Say you are a person who does not like society, culture, and the idea of currency, you may never think more money is "better". Some people prefer to live off the land, and they might consider less money to be "better" because they may believe it blinds a person from really seeing life.


What is "better" to a person is opinion.

 

[WizardStan]

Ah, so it is your opinion that "better" is always a subjective thing then.


Well it is my opinion that it is possible for one thing to be strictly better than another, at least in some circumstances. (See what I did there? )


Consider the game of poker. Four aces is strictly better than four tens within the rules of the game, it is defined as such. There may be other games where this is not true, but for this one it is.

 

[Kaepora Gaebora]

Ah, so it is your opinion that "better" is always a subjective thing then.


Well it is my opinion that it is possible for one thing to be strictly better than another, at least in some circumstances. (See what I did there? )


Consider the game of poker. Four aces is strictly better than four tens within the rules of the game, it is defined as such. There may be other games where this is not true, but for this one it is.

Yes! Better is subjective!


Strictly speaking, in the example of poker, four aces beats four tens. It can be referred to as a better hand because it is compared to the rules of the game, and we play to win the game! For the previous examples, there are no "rules to video games" or "rules of life" to find the better option when it comes to a common goal or winning.