Logo led on the back of the lid

[ekianjo]

and it is the same as the lit logo on the case, branding.

I personally hate the fact that the brand is visibly shown on the lid - even more if it is lighted up. That's treating the person who owns it like moving advertising. I find that offensive to make it a default, and I sincerely hope we can disable that. 

Branding should NOT be at the expense of the user. like, NEVER.

 

[Granitehead]

and it is the same as the lit logo on the case, branding.

 I personally hate the fact that the brand is visibly shown on the lid - even more if it is lighted up. That's treating the person who owns it like moving advertising. I find that offensive to make it a default, and I sincerely hope we can disable that. 

Branding should NOT be at the expense of the user. like, NEVER.

I just took it for a given when I found out about the RGB backlit logo that you can turn that LED of - I mean, it's an open source handheld, what should I expect?
In my opinion it's a nice touch.

 

[thatgui]

I personally hate the fact that the brand is visibly shown on the lid - even more if it is lighted up. That's treating the person who owns it like moving advertising. I find that offensive to make it a default, and I sincerely hope we can disable that. 


Branding should NOT be at the expense of the user. like, NEVER.

ED already stated that it will be fully configurable, and even if not, it probably would not take very long till someone would make a tutorial. I'm just sad about the waste of resources, especially with the Pyra not having any other indicators on the outside, this could have been really handy for notifications. Now we have a portable device that has an indicator that is only visible when its not used as it was designed for, sitting somewhere on a table: if you are on the go and don't use the Pyra it will probably reside in your pocket/bag/whatever, so the notification can't be seen; if your using the Pyra the led is shining through a surface you can't see, but other others can, which they might even not like.


=> Welcome to the apple world: not everthing has to make sense as long as it looks good, and people can better relate to a brand :mellow:

 

[Granitehead]

not everthing has to make sense as long as it looks good

Can't the looks be reason enough?I don't know what it costs; if it's expensive I agree with you.

But I assume it's not that expensive if ED fits it in, so why not?

 

[thatgui]

Can't the looks be reason enough?

Not in my book: form/looks always needs a lower priority in my opinion.

I don't know what it costs; if it's expensive I agree with you.

But I assume it's not that expensive if ED fits it in, so why not?

Costs are there no matter what solution you prefer (except not to have that functionality at all), but I guess having a small led somwhere on the case where it can be seen independent of the lids opening angle is cheaper then having a more complicated production process for the lid to facilitate the transparent logo part. And to the why not: its a "show off" feature, that has only limited to no practical value, and can have negative effects due to environmental respones (people not happy about the christmas tree in your hands in public transport, for example) .

 

[Silent-Hunter]

I personally hate the fact that the brand is visibly shown on the lid - even more if it is lighted up. That's treating the person who owns it like moving advertising. I find that offensive to make it a default, and I sincerely hope we can disable that. 


Branding should NOT be at the expense of the user. like, NEVER.

ED already stated that it will be fully configurable, and even if not, it probably would not take very long till someone would make a tutorial. I'm just sad about the waste of resources, especially with the Pyra not having any other indicators on the outside, this could have been really handy for notifications. Now we have a portable device that has an indicator that is only visible when its not used as it was designed for, sitting somewhere on a table: if you are on the go and don't use the Pyra it will probably reside in your pocket/bag/whatever, so the notification can't be seen; if your using the Pyra the led is shining through a surface you can't see, but other others can, which they might even not like.


=> Welcome to the apple world: not everthing has to make sense as long as it looks good, and people can better relate to a brand :mellow:

The Pyra won't have any indicators? But I use those to tell when it's reading/writing from/to the cards, and how much!

 

[Yoyobuae]

Now we have a portable device that has an indicator that is only visible when its not used as it was designed for, sitting somewhere on a table: if you are on the go and don't use the Pyra it will probably reside in your pocket/bag/whatever, so the notification can't be seen

Isn't this true for any other light based notification?

What other options are there. Vibrator was largely opposed against when suggested. Maybe sound, but that could become annoying.

if your using the Pyra the led is shining through a surface you can't see, but other others can, which they might even not like.

Two cases:

• Lid is open: Turn off lid LED and show notification on one of the internal RGB LED
• Lid is closed: Turn off all internal LEDs (to save power) and show notifications on lid LED

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Good idea!

 

[Glyph Reader]

Now we have a portable device that has an indicator that is only visible when its not used as it was designed for, sitting somewhere on a table: if you are on the go and don't use the Pyra it will probably reside in your pocket/bag/whatever, so the notification can't be seen

Isn't this true for any other light based notification?

What other options are there. Vibrator was largely opposed against when suggested. Maybe sound, but that could become annoying.

if your using the Pyra the led is shining through a surface you can't see, but other others can, which they might even not like.

Two cases:

• Lid is open: Turn off lid LED and show notification on one of the internal RGB LED
• Lid is closed: Turn off all internal LEDs (to save power) and show notifications on lid LED

I definitely like this idea. 

-Glyph Reader

 

[_wb_]

I would certainly disable the logo led on the back of the lid when the lid is open, and when the lid is closed I would only make it show stuff if there is something sufficiently important to show -- e.g. notifications, network traffic, near-empty battery, etc. I would probably make it so that I can query other information using the shoulder buttons when needed, e.g. L1 to show the battery status (color from green to red), L2 to show the number of unread messages (in unary flashes or something), etc.

I wouldn't call that just branding or "moving advertising", it's something useful which happens to look nice too.

 

[thatgui]

Isn't this true for any other light based notification?

As you will probably have the screen on while using your Pandora, you will have the problem of emitting light in any case. But this makes it a little more complicated as you now have light shining in two opposite directions: while one is targeted at you the other is in the exact opposite direction, which makes finding a more non obtrusive position more cumbersome.


But that is only a side effect. I'm more "in awe" that money is spent on something that has a minimum practical value.

Two cases:

• Lid is open: Turn off lid LED and show notification on one of the internal RGB LED
• Lid is closed: Turn off all internal LEDs (to save power) and show notifications on lid LED

Already suggested, and a nice solution never the less. Still leaves you with the problem that (depending on specific use patterns) you won't see any notifications for about 80-99% of the Pyras usage time.

What other options are there. Vibrator was largely opposed against when suggested. Maybe sound, but that could become annoying.

The other option would be to put a notification led somewhere, where you can see it independently of the lids current angle. This could be done with a rather basic approach by putting on the bases front (where SD-Slots n stuff reside) , or more sophisticated (but surely more costly) by putting it "over the edge" (like so).

This is the second time a "vibrator" opposition is mention, can you give me a link to that, I seems as I'am missing something here.

 

[_wb_]

What other options are there. Vibrator was largely opposed against when suggested. Maybe sound, but that could become annoying.

The other option would be to put a notification led somewhere, where you can see it independently of the lids current angle. This could be done with a rather basic approach by putting on the bases front (where SD-Slots n stuff reside) , or more sophisticated (but surely more costly) by putting it "over the edge" (like so).

I don't really feel the need to have indicator leds when the screen is active. I can tell the device is powered because the screen is on. I don't just want a rough indication of the battery status, I want to know at what percentage my battery is and how much time left that is at the current rate. I can tell there is a wifi or 3G connection because there's an icon on my taskbar (which also shows connection strength and SSID etc). When I'm doing large file transfers I prefer to see a progress bar and not just an activity led. When I have incoming emails or messages, I want to read them - a blinking led is redundant.

Yes, there are fullscreen applications that cause the taskbar and notifications not to be visible. But the hardware is there to solve that problem in software: it should be possible to have a display overlay (perhaps that you can toggle using a dedicated button or shortcut) that shows the information you want at any time, regardless of anything else that happens on the screen.

Leds in the lid like on the Pandora are clever (because they're always visible, lid open or closed), but also quite annoying (because they're always visible). It is distracting to have other sources of light near a screen. It can be useful (to warn you about an almost empty battery), but it's mostly just annoying: when I'm watching a movie, I don't need blinking lights near the screen to let know that the device is powered and that it is constantly reading data from an SD card.

So I think that leds are mostly useful when the screen is off, the lid is closed, and the device is lying somewhere doing something (a big compile job, downloading stuff, playing music) or doing nothing (just being idle/standby, perhaps periodically checking for new mails or messages). And for that, I prefer a nice, big, logo-shaped RGB led over small, boring fixed-color indicator leds.

 

[thatgui]

I don't really feel the need to have indicator leds when the screen is active. I can tell the device is powered because the screen is on. I don't just want a rough indication of the battery status, I want to know at what percentage my battery is and how much time left that is at the current rate. I can tell there is a wifi or 3G connection because there's an icon on my taskbar (which also shows connection strength and SSID etc). When I'm doing large file transfers I prefer to see a progress bar and not just an activity led. When I have incoming emails or messages, I want to read them - a blinking led is redundant.

Arguing about is a bit hard as it boils to user preferences and use cases. You seem to rely on a (always visible I guess) taskbar for your requirement regarding system status information. I definately have another, as I have - for the sake of having more screen estate - my taskbar set to autohide.But I have a feeling we are talking cross purposes here. This is no discussion about wether notifications LEDs in general are usefull or not, its about placement and wether its worth the additional money/resources spent on. Trailing the question what you would ultimatly loose if things would not be done the way you would like it ? Another LED you would turn off, which costs are surely a lot lower than implementing an "exciting"/non boring, but totally pointless light up logo.

But as I am smartass to the bones I'll do it anyway:

I certainly don't need a power LED just for the sake of knowing that the device is on, but I want one to tell me wether the battery status is low or critical, as I often experienced, that a visual reminder draws my attention to an event, which I otherwise would not think about as I concentrate on the things I do.

Especially in a mobile device I deem it very valueable to see wether some form of wireless network is still up and running without the need to open the device again, I just need to pull it a little out of my pocket, and again for a very small price (LED+traces), and the only inconvenience for you that you would need to turn the feature of if you don't need it.

Same with file transfers, while a progress bar is an effective tool, it does not cater all the information you need as you mostly do your file transfers with a higher level application that does not concern itself with low level stuff like data buffers. So its quite handy for me to see wether write operations on an removeable device are already finished or not.

Yes, there are fullscreen applications that cause the tskbar and notifications not to be visible. But the hardware is there to solve that problem in software: it should be possible to have a display overlay (perhaps that you can toggle using a dedicated button or shortcut) that shows the information you want at any time, regardless of anything else that happens on the screen.

That may happen, or maybe not, and even if one comes around and does this, no one can tell wether this will be dragged through every system update that may affect it. Relying on that also may reduce versatility if this needs adjustments for non stock operating systems, which the author may not want to do.

Leds in the lid like on the Pandora are clever (because they're always visible, lid open or closed), but also quite annoying (because they're always visible). It is distracting to have other sources of light near a screen. It can be useful (to warn you about an almost empty battery), but it's mostly just annoying: when I'm watching a movie, I don't need blinking lights near the screen to let know that the device is powered and that it is constantly reading data from an SD card.

No they aren't clever at all for a device that is mostly used on the go. And maybe I'm the only one, but I can't say that I'm utterly distracted by the SD-Card indicators.

So I think that leds are mostly useful when the screen is off, the lid is closed, and the device is lying somewhere doing something (a big compile job, downloading stuff, playing music) or doing nothing (just being idle/standby, perhaps periodically checking for new mails or messages). And for that, I prefer a nice, big, logo-shaped RGB led over small, boring fixed-color indicator leds.

How viable is that scenario for most future users of this portable device ?. And again, all this could be accomplished with a much more cheaper/robust/non intrusive solution a sensible placed (multi color) LED. I also doubt that you can differentiate the "boringness factor" between a single led "spot" and the logo from afar, especially if the Pyra is closed so you don't have a real good viewing angle on its lids backside.
As you are a moderater, would you mind transfering this offtopic part in another thread ?

@comradekingu:

sorry for derailing this thread

 

[_wb_]

But I have a feeling we are talking cross purposes here. This is no discussion about wether notifications LEDs in general are usefull or not, its about placement and wether its worth the additional money/resources spent on. Trailing the question what you would ultimatly loose if things would not be done the way you would like it ? Another LED you would turn off, which costs are surely a lot lower than implementing an "exciting"/non boring, but totally pointless light up logo.

Right. So I guess your points are the following:

1. It is more expensive to put the led in the lid instead of in the case.

2. It is more expensive to do a nice backlit logo instead of just a simple small dot-shaped led.

3. The placement at the back of the screen makes it less useful than if it were put in a more strategic position, where it can also be seen while using the device and/or when the device is mostly in your pocket.

These are fair points and I agree with them. Function over form and all that. However, in my opinion:

1. The price difference is probably negligible, the extra bit of wire is not going to make a big difference.

2. I'm not sure how much the extra cost of this is, and I agree that it should be not too much. However:

2a. a larger colored area (regardless of the shape) does have some advantages: it's easier to recognize different color shades, and a brighter light (more visible from afar) is possible without being blinding if it is getting diffused on a large area instead of being concentrated at a point.

2b. I want some kind of logo (backlit or not) on the device anyway; you can call it just "advertizing" or "branding" if you want, but to some extent it also adds style and it helps to distinguish the device from other devices with a similar form-factor

2c. It also helps to distinguish different Pyras from one another since you can kind of customize the look of your Pyra by setting the logo color. Imagine multi-player games (with multiple Pyras) where each player has a color both in-game and on his or her Pyra logo. This would be pretty useful for semi-automated board games and stuff like that. So I disagree with your claim that it is "totally pointless".

3. Not necessarily:

3a. It also has potential advantages that the led is not visible for the user when he or she is looking at the screen. I could imagine multi-player games (played on one Pyra) where asymmetric information could be part of the game, e.g. some kind of quiz game where one player sees a question on the screen and the others see the yes/no answer on the logo led (or even multiple-choice with appropriate color coding).

3b. Arguably, when the device is lying on a table (which is in my opinion the most common use case for lid-closed visual notifications), a led on the back of the lid is the most visible spot. If you put it somewhere on one of the sides, it may be easier to inspect the led when you put it in your pocket with that side up, but the led may not be visible if the device is laying on the table facing the wrong direction. When the device is in your pocket, a vibrating alert is more suitable for notifications than a led.

I would actually prefer a tiny e-ink display in the front (between or next to the SD slots) or in the side (left or right, wherever the headphone jack and volume control is). Just large enough to show the time, some status information, or maybe song info and email subject lines.

To be clear: I'm not opposed to having extra leds in some strategic location. I'm just opposed to the idea that we should not have a light-up logo because it reminds some people of Apple-style form-over-function branding crap. Even though the light-up apples on the back of Apple laptops are indeed totally pointless branding crap, I think that if those were user-controllable RGB leds, then they would be pretty nice. Of course it will always be just a gimmick, not a core feature, but it would be somewhat useful at least.

 

[comradekingu]

In my view all points relating to how it could be negative may or may not be valid, but all stem from how i dislike the chosen logo in itself.

That is the deciding factor for me.


Alternative shells, or just a circle thats lit solves this.

Quickfixes

• sand off the logo, and then put something else on top of it, or
• not use the backlighting.
• Mask off a sufficient area so it will be just a led again

 

[rygD]

Vibrator was largely opposed against when suggested.

This is the second time a "vibrator" opposition is mention, can you give me a link to that, I seems as I'am missing something here.

Yes, please.  I tried searching several terms and phrases and found no discussions of this where people were opposed.  I may try to find all the posts where it was stated that in other unlinked threads and posts people didn't want it, since that seems to be easier than finding the actual discussion.

 

[DAP]

Damn! I read that as Lego LED. This lead me to think I could snap on my own iluminated logo

I believe the lego patents have expired, so you could build a lego compatible LED, you just could not have the lego logo on it.

 

[thatgui]

1. The price difference is probably negligible, the extra bit of wire is not going to make a big difference.

I have no experience in case manufacturing, so this is all guesswork:Creating a lid with an odd shaped cutout and a suitable inlay with transparent plastic in an area that is already suffering under the weight of beeing one of the thinest parts of the case that at the same time is also one of the parts that has to endure the most stress, seems a lot more expensive to me. Could you explain further why you think otherwise ?

2a. a larger colored area (regardless of the shape) doe have some advantages: it's easier to recognize different color shades, and a brighter light (more visible from afar) is possible without being blinding if it is getting diffused on a large area instead of being concentrated at a point.

....

3b. Arguably, when the device is lying on a table (which is in my opinion the most common use case for lid-closed visual notifications), a led on the back of the lid is the most visible spot. If you put it somewhere on one of the sides, it may be easier to inspect the led when you put it in your pocket with that side up, but the led may not be visible if the device is laying on the table facing the wrong direction. When the device is in your pocket, a vibrating alert is more suitable for notifications than a led.

I can offer some anecdotal value: ~10 min ago I put my Pandora on the desk and went at the other side of the office (~7 1/2 meters). Lighting is quite good as the office has many large windows, but as it is still in the morning here, its not as bright as on midday. I had no problem seeing the charge LED from that distance, but that also dependeded heavily on which side the Pandora was facing me and wether the lid was closed or not. In the worst case the distance shrank to about ~3 meters (except the case where I put the Pandora on the side with the battery cover facing me, which obviously provided zero vision), with leaving the lid open providing at least 5 meters (more or less) independet of which side of the Pandora was facing me.A bigger area may provide a better visibility (which I doubt as the light will be diffused over a larger area, thus reducing overall brigthness, but I can't prove otherwise), but we are still talking about a device that is designed to be primarily used on to go (and at least I use the Pandora 90% of the time like that), so I would say your case is very specific, especially if you happen to work/live in rooms that provide larger distances.

2b. I want some kind of logo (backlit or not) on the device anyway; you can call it just "advertizing" or "branding" if you want, but to some extent it also adds style and it helps to distinguish the device from other devices with a similar form-factor

I think this is what it boils down to in the end: you prefer that kind of style and I despise that kind of style, no need to waste time over that

2c. It also helps to distinguish different Pyras from one another since you can kind of customize the look of your Pyra by setting the logo color. Imagine multi-player games (with multiple Pyras) where each player has a color both in-game and on his or her Pyra logo. This would be pretty useful for semi-automated board games and stuff like that. So I disagree with your claim that it is "totally pointless".

...

3a. It also has potential advantages that the led is not visible for the user when he or she is looking at the screen. I could imagine multi-player games (played on one Pyra) where asymmetric information could be part of the game, e.g. some kind of quiz game where one player sees a question on the screen and the others see the yes/no answer on the logo led (or even multiple-choice with appropriate color coding).

Except rare cases (expos, cons, etc.) where actually several Pyra will meet, I have my doubts about usefullness, so the maximum that would do is to raise it from "totally pointless" to "almost totally pointless".Second thought: You would actually reduce general usefullness to cater one specific scenario that is not very likely to happen ?

To be clear: I'm not opposed to having extra leds in some strategic location. I'm just opposed to the idea that we should not have a light-up logo because it reminds some people of Apple-style form-over-function branding crap. Even though the light-up apples on the back of Apple laptops are indeed totally pointless branding crap, I think that if those were user-controllable RGB leds, then they would be pretty nice. Of course it will always be just a gimmick, not a core feature, but it would be somewhat useful at least.

Adding useless features which cost resources that could be spent otherwise a lot more sensible is manufacturer independent. If Apple actually did something usefull (that would make sense in that context) I would advise Ed to copy blatantly it (forgetting patents for a moment) - this is no "buuh" Apple rant, this is just stating the obvious, and as far as I can see it, you did not really well proving otherwise. If others don't agree with me here, please speak up !

In my view all points relating to how it could be negative may or may not be valid, but all stem from how i dislike the chosen logo in itself.

• sand off the logo, and then put something else on top of it, or

Only if you have no problem with sanding of the whole lid, exposing the bare back of the display to the outside world.

 

[_wb_]

Second thought: You would actually reduce general usefullness to cater one specific scenario that is not very likely to happen ?

No, I wouldn't. How does a logo led on the back of the lid reduce the general usefulness?

 

[thatgui]

Second thought: You would actually reduce general usefullness to cater one specific scenario that is not very likely to happen ?

 No, I wouldn't. How does a logo led on the back of the lid reduce the general usefulness?

Apologies, that was worded quite misunderstandable. As it currently looks like Ed is determined to put in the logo, so all discussions here are more or less pointless (except a possible learning factor). This statement was made, from a perspective inside the topic itself (and disconnected from decisions already made) - so a rather "what if you could still deside" scenario > if you would have to decide between the two options "Lid Logo" or "simple led in the base" you would go for the option that you deem more "stylish". Hope this is clearer now