Just S-video And Composite? Why Not More Video Outputs?

[timofonic]

Hello.

I found not add RGB/VGA/DVI outputs a bad decision.

You can use the same pins for different video outputs, you just need some kind of select pin that gets certain voltage or mixed with another pin. That voltage difference can be the same pin but using some small IC that changes it so reducing pins.

RGB is very interesting as makes possible to have good quality connections on PAL TVs. VGA for converting it in some kind of sub-notebook and DVI for new TVs/monitors and the future when most monitors and TVs use only digital signals. There will be new standards like DisplayPort, but is possible to use adapters for converting DVI to DisplayPort.

You can convert DVI to VGA I think, so probably you will need to support one less video output. But as VGA and RGB has little differ except that one is 15KHz and the other 31KHz or more, maybe that's not a problem.

Composite is just a merge of s-video into the same signal and can be avoid the output directly as there are very cheap rgb to s-video encoders out there. Composite is just a merger of Luminance and Crominance with a very simply circuit into one of the connectors using a physically small size 470 pF (ceramic) capacitor.

Please consider it, it will make it a more interesting platform and thinking in the future of displays.


Regards.

 

[Blah]

We discussed this already...

 

[nubie]

I wanted RGB and/or VGA as well, but it looks like it is too expensive.

I don't think the chip that is being used supports it (it is not a conexant like the GP2X that could support.)

If they wanted to add it: Not anymore room for it on the board, needs more power, costs more money, all bad.

Maybe someone can elaborate, I am not to clear on why it is missing myself.


The chip only supports S-Video output:
QUOTE
The OMAP3430 supports high-quality outputs as well as inputs, enabling easy
sharing of multimedia content. Composite and S-video outputs provide flexible
connectivity options to extend to TV displays and projectors.

 

[bacteria]

Composite video on a TV usually sucks, however it can be fine (eg N64, GameCube, etc), although composite on some other systems sucks (GBA TV output on composite is bad, RGB mode is great).

Sometimes RGB is present by soldering directly to pins on a chip, sometimes not. It also depends on if the RGB is analogue or digital apparently. If someone who knows what the video chips are in Pandora, they could Google them and see if they support RGB (and C-sync), and let us know?? If there are, it is easy enough to solder wires to pins on a chip (if you have a steady hand), hot glue them in place and run the wires externally.

 

[Zarneth]

Component would be preferred and is found on probably all LCD and high def tv's. But we can probably live with S-video.... assuming it can output in progressive scan mode. Because interlaced can be quite ugly on LCD TV's. (or my 1920x1200 24" computer monitor )

 

[Squidge]

I found not add RGB/VGA/DVI outputs a bad decision.

You will be able to use VGA & DVI through a USB adaptor when drivers are written for them.

 

[sbock]

Component would be preferred and is found on probably all LCD and high def tv's. But we can probably live with S-video.... assuming it can output in progressive scan mode. Because interlaced can be quite ugly on LCD TV's. (or my 1920x1200 24" computer monitor )

Exactly what I thought. I also prefer a progressive component connection. Composite and S-Video alone are imho not the best choice in the year 2008 for a next-gen handheld.
I just found out that even the PSP is capable of doing progressive component (at least for games), so if it's affordable I would like to see this kind of output for the Pandora...

Regards,
Stephan

 

[timofonic]

I found not add RGB/VGA/DVI outputs a bad decision.

You will be able to use VGA & DVI through a USB adaptor when drivers are written for them.


USB? But that doesn't get too much CPU and will make it in theory impossible for most CPU hungry software? Media players, certain arcade emulations and such.

I found the following on a review and that makes me think those adaptors are totally unusable for media or gaming:


QUOTE
In fact, there is a slight lag when the screen is updating and you are moving the mouse. For example, if you open a webpage and move the mouse as the page loads, you'll notice the cursor moves a little jerkily. I tried to play a web-based game on the USB-connected monitor and it was too jerky to play well. Playing video is a little jerky, but bearable - doesn't look too great in 16-bit colour, though.


QUOTE
The maximum resolution supported is 1024x768 at 16-bit colour. If you must have 32-bit colour, you'll be forced to drop to 800x600. The manual explains that this is due to the maximum bandwidth available through the USB 2.0 port. I assume from this and from the name of the device that plugging into a legacy USB 1 port is not going to work well.


http://www.overclockers.com.au/article.php?id=334086

http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/AddVGAAdapter
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_details.php?id=15210

And for VGA output, why not converting the LVDS (FlatLink is one of the alternative names for the same thing) signal to DVI-D? Then it can be used a converter, as it's possible but maybe VGA/RGB is not so difficult. I'm sure there's a small chip able to do that.

http://emea.kontron.com/index.php?id=226&a...;productid=1312
http://axiomtek.com/products/ViewProduct.asp?view=546


As for being a feature that will be too few used, I don't agree.

Silicon Image designed a HDMI compatible connector for HD video outputs on cellphones: http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/silicon...-hdmi-standard/


In the worst case, there could be a LVDS external connector somewhere with a switching and then able to convert it to DVI. It could be internal so at least some geeks can buy a LVDS to DVI adapter internally ready for use in Pandora.

 

[Jaguarandine]

One of the reasons I got a gp2x was because it would allow me to put away all of my aging consoles and instead have only one unit for retro gaming. I think it's done pretty well in that regard so far. But, in the age of HD, you'd think that a new handheld would give players the option of making old games look good no matter what TV you have. Many of these older games look downright terrible on my CRT HDTV.

I don't mean to sound impertinent, but it seems like tv out is really an afterthought instead of one of the premiere features like with the gp2x. This is probably unfair, but even the Jaguar and SNES had RGB output. Now I'm not expecting 1080p, but 480i is just SO uncool in 2008.

 

[Chip]

I don't mean to sound impertinent, but it seems like tv out is really an afterthought instead of one of the premiere features like with the gp2x. This is probably unfair, but even the Jaguar and SNES had RGB output. Now I'm not expecting 1080p, but 480i is just SO uncool in 2008.

Scroll up a bit. That other thread Blah linked to in the 2nd post really does cover the hows and whys of video out on Pandora. The reason that there is only composite and S-video out is because that is all the SoC gives us. To get component or VGA out they would need to add hardware to convert the available signals, and that costs money and space.

 

[Zarneth]

480i is really quite a shame, since it's only half of Pandora's vertical resolution (480p). But I can see it's probably not worth the trouble unless there's some kind of external converter that could be used, but that would still require getting the full resolution picture off the Pandora to the converter at at least 30FPS, something I doubt USB would be able to handle.

Admittedly your fast action 3d games are more likely to run at half rez on the Pandora anyway, and higher rez things are more likely to not have much fast motion so interlacing won't be as noticeable on some LCD displays. Assuming you're not using an LCD display that forces it's bad de-interlacing all the time. :\

 

[Jaguarandine]

Scroll up a bit. That other thread Blah linked to in the 2nd post really does cover the hows and whys of video out on Pandora. The reason that there is only composite and S-video out is because that is all the SoC gives us. To get component or VGA out they would need to add hardware to convert the available signals, and that costs money and space.

Thanks for the link, but I read that part already.

Assuming that Pandora will do emulation of mostly everything in short order (including 3DO, according to Wikipedia ), what's left for it to try? I naturally assumed the upscaling of older videogames to higher resolutions, with filtering and other effects.

I wonder was this feature (component out) not requested all that much? Does anyone really care about this? I just kinda assumed it would be a given.

 

[Yrx]

I don't speak for anyone else, but I can't personally afford an HDTV, so I don't really care.

 

[timofonic]

Scroll up a bit. That other thread Blah linked to in the 2nd post really does cover the hows and whys of video out on Pandora. The reason that there is only composite and S-video out is because that is all the SoC gives us. To get component or VGA out they would need to add hardware to convert the available signals, and that costs money and space.

It uses LVDS output for the TFT, so it's possible.

In the worst scenario, it could be possible to add some kind of internal LVDS connector plus a simple switching method (two pins that joined switch from the screen to the external output). Then you could buy a PCB that can be installed inside and have a DVI output (that can be converted to analog RGB too).

I don't see what's so difficult and expensive do add the output to Pandora, it's a bit pathetic that the best output the SoC can do directly is s-video and then being one of the best ones out there. Maybe it appears a newer revision of the chip that includes DVI and analog RGB outputs.

What about this? At least geeks can have DVI/RGB output and resellers could sell systems with this feature.

How it will can make the cost bigger by adding a tiny connector with the DVI or LVDS output? 20 dollars?

 

[Squidge]

Well, you could get DVI output by adding a transmitter ic such as the TFP410, but I think the question must be: Why should everyone be forced to pay the cost of implementing such a feature when not that many people will use it?

Plus, a DVI connector on the Pandora will look UGLY, and if you use a smaller connector, then you need a conversion lead with a DVI socket at one end, which would cost more money.

Looking at it from a business point of view, how many extra sales will a DVI connector provide? I'd say hardly any.

So in the end, it's just not worth it.

 

[Vimacs]

well a "ext" conenctor with many pins would have solved most of the problems.
But i think usb will do fine when implemented correctly, as in send the current framebuffer to it.
It would probably be a good choice for craig and his bunch to get various oem usb sticks and certify them for use with the p&|a, maybe rebrand em and sell em as official components.

 

[Gaeryc]

It would probably a good choice for craig and his bunch to get various oem usb sticks and certify them for use with the p&|a, maybe rebrand em and sell em as official components.

I think that is what he MUST do, even if it sounds sooo cheap. People like buying stuff that they know will work.

 

[slint]

Plus, a DVI connector on the Pandora will look UGLY, and if you use a smaller connector, then you need a conversion lead with a DVI socket at one end, which would cost more money.

HDMI could be used. Small, Hardwarecompatible to DVI and there are cheap adapters. However it would still cost too much for the small amount of users of it.

well a "ext" conenctor with many pins would have solved most of the problems.
But i think usb will do fine when implemented correctly, as in send the current framebuffer to it.
It would probably be a good choice for craig and his bunch to get various oem usb sticks and certify them for use with the p&|a, maybe rebrand em and sell em as official components.

Uhh, want that ext connector! With it I could use the P&|a like a full computer!
Wait. Why do I have a computer? and for what im getting the Pandora?

 

[Squidge]

HDMI could be used. Small, Hardwarecompatible to DVI and there are cheap adapters. However it would still cost too much for the small amount of users of it.

HDMI would be ideal, but yes, it comes down to cost again. In order to claim HDMI compatibility or compliance (or to even use the word or logo HDMI), it costs around $10,000 per year.

 

[spamme]

Plus, a DVI connector on the Pandora will look UGLY, and if you use a smaller connector, then you need a conversion lead with a DVI socket at one end, which would cost more money.

HDMI could be used. Small, Hardwarecompatible to DVI and there are cheap adapters. However it would still cost too much for the small amount of users of it.

well a "ext" conenctor with many pins would have solved most of the problems.
But i think usb will do fine when implemented correctly, as in send the current framebuffer to it.
It would probably be a good choice for craig and his bunch to get various oem usb sticks and certify them for use with the p&|a, maybe rebrand em and sell em as official components.

Uhh, want that ext connector! With it I could use the P&|a like a full computer!
Wait. Why do I have a computer? and for what im getting the Pandora?

Well since I want a PMP and portable gaming, I thought Pandora seemed like an ideal choice. Now, a lot of animes are in 720P, and it seems like the pandora can support that. That seems really great for someone like me who might want to watch 720P on TV, but maybe on the go at times too so I dont have to convert down the resolution. Now I'm beginning to think this is not possible, since I think it's probably hard enough to play 720p, but having the CPU to sent data to usb might slow it more, but I'm not that sure abuot these things. I'll just wait for reviews to come in when it's out.