Just S-video And Composite? Why Not More Video Outputs?

[BaDToaD]

Let's not lose sight of what the Pandora is here. First and foremost it's a handheld gaming console/umpc and anything else is a bonus. As long as the TV out is reasonable that's all most people will want or need.

 

[slint]

Plus, a DVI connector on the Pandora will look UGLY, and if you use a smaller connector, then you need a conversion lead with a DVI socket at one end, which would cost more money.

HDMI could be used. Small, Hardwarecompatible to DVI and there are cheap adapters. However it would still cost too much for the small amount of users of it.

well a "ext" conenctor with many pins would have solved most of the problems.
But i think usb will do fine when implemented correctly, as in send the current framebuffer to it.
It would probably be a good choice for craig and his bunch to get various oem usb sticks and certify them for use with the p&|a, maybe rebrand em and sell em as official components.

Uhh, want that ext connector! With it I could use the P&|a like a full computer!
Wait. Why do I have a computer? and for what im getting the Pandora?

Well since I want a PMP and portable gaming, I thought Pandora seemed like an ideal choice. Now, a lot of animes are in 720P, and it seems like the pandora can support that. That seems really great for someone like me who might want to watch 720P on TV, but maybe on the go at times too so I dont have to convert down the resolution. Now I'm beginning to think this is not possible, since I think it's probably hard enough to play 720p, but having the CPU to sent data to usb might slow it more, but I'm not that sure abuot these things. I'll just wait for reviews to come in when it's out.


Eh, I can't believe that Pandorra can Decode 720p.

However, you must accept that there are only a few people that would love to get a tiny ARM UMPC in size of N800 or so with all PC features and Debian on it or so.

There are so few that want that. (And I'm one of them )
But you can't just get developers of ARM devices to make what you want. It would be unfair to the other customers who want a gaming device.

If you want to use Pandora for things that it is not concepted to, hack the Pandora or don't buy it/buy additional devices.

Btw: If you want 720p and HDMI just wait for devices with nVidia APX 2500 or similiar arm processors.

 

[spamme]

Plus, a DVI connector on the Pandora will look UGLY, and if you use a smaller connector, then you need a conversion lead with a DVI socket at one end, which would cost more money.

HDMI could be used. Small, Hardwarecompatible to DVI and there are cheap adapters. However it would still cost too much for the small amount of users of it.

well a "ext" conenctor with many pins would have solved most of the problems.
But i think usb will do fine when implemented correctly, as in send the current framebuffer to it.
It would probably be a good choice for craig and his bunch to get various oem usb sticks and certify them for use with the p&|a, maybe rebrand em and sell em as official components.

Uhh, want that ext connector! With it I could use the P&|a like a full computer!
Wait. Why do I have a computer? and for what im getting the Pandora?

Well since I want a PMP and portable gaming, I thought Pandora seemed like an ideal choice. Now, a lot of animes are in 720P, and it seems like the pandora can support that. That seems really great for someone like me who might want to watch 720P on TV, but maybe on the go at times too so I dont have to convert down the resolution. Now I'm beginning to think this is not possible, since I think it's probably hard enough to play 720p, but having the CPU to sent data to usb might slow it more, but I'm not that sure abuot these things. I'll just wait for reviews to come in when it's out.


Eh, I can't believe that Pandorra can Decode 720p.

However, you must accept that there are only a few people that would love to get a tiny ARM UMPC in size of N800 or so with all PC features and Debian on it or so.

There are so few that want that. (And I'm one of them )
But you can't just get developers of ARM devices to make what you want. It would be unfair to the other customers who want a gaming device.

If you want to use Pandora for things that it is not concepted to, hack the Pandora or don't buy it/buy additional devices.

Btw: If you want 720p and HDMI just wait for devices with nVidia APX 2500 or similiar arm processors.


Man you don't know how hard I've been trying to find a hardware player that does HD and plays mkv and ogm with subtile support Oddly enough, Pandora I thought might be one of them even though it's not really for that purpose. I mean I do plan on gaming, just really looking for that powerful open source device that'll do it all. Hopefully if Pandora was successful we can see a P II with the design that the PSP fanboy made for the PSP

 

[Vimacs]

well, you wish could become real with a usb-vga adapter if your tv supports vga (mine does!).

 

[C B Felterbush]

It is important to many that this new unit be able to play their movies in a nice HD format.

BadToad-Let's not lose sight of what the Pandora is here. First and foremost it's a handheld gaming console/umpc and anything else is a bonus.

I think first and foremost it is a handheld gaming console. Moreover specially designed for homebrew gaming. After that I think all other things are simply bonuses. The ability to use it as a UMPC, PVP, PMP are all specifically designed perks to the machine. That is the beauty of the Pandora it functions as a secondary and in some cases a third and even fourth portable device.

I imagine I'll watch anime, play games, and meander around the internet
chances are I'll never use the touch screen but I'm glad it's there. I hope this fits the needs of all the members here and becomes a huge success.-cb

 

[spamme]

well, you wish could become real with a usb-vga adapter if your tv supports vga (mine does!).

Do you think that is going to slow down the system? I'm not a programmer.

 

[nubie]

OK, first:

We need to leave something for the next console.

Second:

The CHIP DOESN'T HAVE ANY BETTER.

Third:

TO GET IT MEANS MORE CHIPS, MORE MONEY, MORE UGLY (due to breakout connectors or added space for chips.)

Fourth:

This will MAKE BATTERY LIFE LESS. (The chips will use power, to even fit the chips would likely mean decreasing the battery size.)

So lets count the score:

VGA/DVI/Component: 1

Cons: 3.

Looks like there are too many downsides with the current setup.

What some of you guys will need is a line-doubler that can accurately transfer S-Video to your HDTV. The problem with some (ok most) "HDTVs" is that the scaler is very very poor, and usually defaults to huge overscan. (Please tell me why a 1368x768 display needs to blow a 1280x720 signal up to 1500x 820 and then lop off all the edges? I will not pay money to see that crap.)

Frankly for the games this is designed to play a proper S-Video signal is fine. Personally my best mod Idea is conversion into a projector, then there are no pixel issues, in fact you get perfect quality http://www.allinbox.com/230box/230box.htm .

 

[Zarneth]

well, you wish could become real with a usb-vga adapter if your tv supports vga (mine does!).

But can usb AND the Pandora support the bandwidth for 800x480@30fps while decoding a movie? Or worse, a game that tries to use 100% cpu?

It'll either need to be cheap, or support the 30fps or more to be practical.

 

[Frogboy]

One of the reasons I got a gp2x was because it would allow me to put away all of my aging consoles and instead have only one unit for retro gaming. I think it's done pretty well in that regard so far. But, in the age of HD, you'd think that a new handheld would give players the option of making old games look good no matter what TV you have. Many of these older games look downright terrible on my CRT HDTV.

I think that the old games look better with S-Video because they kind of relied on the blurriness. The pixels stand out more when quality is better.

I don't mean to sound impertinent, but it seems like tv out is really an afterthought instead of one of the premiere features like with the gp2x. This probably unfair, but even the Jaguar and SNES had RGB output. Now I'm not expecting 1080p, but 480i is just SO uncool in 2008.

I wouldn't say that the GP2X team felt that TV-out was a premier feature. They made you buy an extra $10 (plus shipping) cable to do it or worse yet, a $50 cradle and a $23 power adapter if you wanted support for two or more players. The Pandora will have all of this functionality built in via an $8 S-Video/Audio cables and a $6 four port USB hub that you can buy anywhere. The devs will probably be more apt to make their games 2-4 players knowing that everyone has the capability to use it. I'd argue that Pandora caters more to the TV-out functionality than the GP2X does.

 

[MWeston]

Well, here is my take on DVI/VGA/HDMI outputs.

First, TV output was never an after thought. Our goal was to provide an experience similar to the GP2X but with better concerns for battery life. It turned out in our favor that the OMAP3430 has composite/S-video output built in and if it didn't, we would probably use the same chip that was in the hand held I made last year which is the FS471. It only has two outputs as well so the same plan has been in place for over a year and a half.

A digital video port sounds neat and has the extra geek factor, but I really don't see the practicality of it. I have been reading up on that new Nvidia chip trying to bring HD video to cell phones. Am I the only one that thinks that is ridiculous? I'd love to brag to my friends that my phone does HD, but just how many HD movies are you really going to store on there and why?

The technical side of the problem involves four main concerns. First, board space is limited as the PCB is either packed with components in some areas or left open and reserved for structures in the plastic to reinforce the case in other places. I can see a spot where I could just squeeze in a DVI chip if I add two more layers to the PCB and re-route the entire LCD section of the board. The HDMI connector (chosen for size perhaps) would have to be on the left side and not at the back. A further complication in design and development time is that clocking for high resolution can be 50+ MHz and the board needs efforts in trace length matching and impedance control which can alter the stack up and means that all other parts of the board have to be re-evaluated for signal integrity. This isn't the reason why we didn't put it on there but it is the reason why I only checked out how hard it would be to add this, just for the fun of it, over the past few days.

The second problem is cost. The more we add, the more it costs. It goes beyond just the cost of the parts. Things like carrying costs, shipping, assembly charges, extra board spin offs, and more expensive PCBs all add up. I would imagine this stuff would put the price closer to $380 and many people already find the price high when they make the mistake of comparing it to their PSP's and DS's which are in different markets. Still $380 for a UMPC like device with HD output is a fair price, but I think it would lose us more customers.

The third problem is likely performance. Are you expecting to play your emulators and homebrew in HD? If so, you might be disappointed. The DSP section of the 3430 is an unbelievable powerful decoder of 720p video while the CPU toils along filling buffers and handling user input so to reverse the role of the ARM core and make it do all the high resolution processing is likely to make you miss your old P-233. There is still so much of this chip to explore as software matures (or even starts working!) so maybe it will do better than expected but many people already wondered how 800x480 would do and now some people aren't satisfied with that and want 1280x720. That's nuckin futs!

The fourth concern is lead times and delays. The more unique parts you have in a design, the more prone you are to missing deadlines because the assembly line is held up by at least one missing part! Lead times can be ridiculous now a days if you don't have a plan in place many months in advance.

You don't have to agree with any of the above, but that is the logistics behind our decisions. Nothing in this design has been taken lightly or glossed over. I promise you that!

 

[atomicthumbs]

I'd love to brag to my friends that my phone does HD, but just how many HD movies are you really going to store on there and why?

Not to mention the fact that most cell phone screens are less than QVGA. :lol:

 

[Jaguarandine]

I really don't care about HD output, just a good clean video connection. If there's a possibility to have a component video add-on that can be bought seperately, I'd take that as a good solution.

 

[Zarneth]

I really don't care about HD output, just a good clean video connection. If there's a possibility to have a component video add-on that can be bought separately, I'd take that as a good solution.

The impression I've got is the best we're getting is s-video. Which will likely be 480i, technically half the pandora's rez. The question is do you consider interlaced clean? I certainly don't. But I don't think we can realistically expect more on the first gen pandora. I consider it more of a bonus that there's any tv out at all.

Any addon will require a special connector which I suspect is far too complex to add at this point, or will be usb, which I won't believe has enough bandwidth till I see it in action.

 

[Snu]

Any addon will require a special connector which I suspect is far too complex to add at this point, or will be usb, which I won't believe has enough bandwidth till I see it in action.

usb rgb adapters very well could be a viable alternative.

usb2 has a max speed of 480mbits/sec (higher than firewire actually).
uncompressed 800x480 30fps 16bit video would be... (800*480*30*16)/1024/1024 == 175.78mbits/sec, or twice that if it were 32bit color. either way usb2 is more than capable of handling it.
if you want to use higher resolutions than the pandora screen, a usb vga adapter would be capable of up to 1024*768*16bit (360mbit/sec), and maybe even 720p (422mbit/sec).

the issue tho is, lag - if the driver software would have to convert it to some format, stream it to the usb device, then the device would convert it video out...
even without converting, if it was just a direct kernel stream video, it might have a good deal of lag depending on the quality of the usb device (and the drivers).

well, that last paragraph is mostly speculation on my part, does anyone have experience with such devices?

i guess component 480p would be nice... but im fine with svideo.