It's the details that take longest (Part 3)


In the worst case scenario, you could have a 22.05khz signal that gets sampled exactly at the zero crossings (instead of at peak and trough), yielding a waveform of zero amplitude when played-back.
As was mentioned early on, the reason 40Khz is chosen for output is because the human ear can't typically detect frequencies above 20Khz: it doesn't matter if that 22.05Khz is represented exactly or zeroed out because your ear can't hear it anyway. So long as the chosen frequency is twice our maximum range we don't have to worry about whether it can be played back exactly or not.
 
Damn!  Well, I guess it's better to know nw than when Pyra is in mass production.
Indeed I wonder why the longer travel nubs became EOL, maybe the ones with a shorter travel are more durable?
Do you really want nubs that have an even shorter travel distance than the already short 2mm from the current ones? I don't want that. 

maybe ED can buy remaining batches from the choosen nubs? EOL does not automaticly mean there are no parts left over.
 
Well, it's the mechanical part that's EOL.

Basically just a disc with springs and magnets.

The hall sensor is still available.

So we've got multiple choices:

1. Try to build our own magnet-disk and integrate them into the case. Need to check that with the design company.

2. We know the company that produced the mechanical parts for AMS (the company where we're getting the nubs). We could ask whether they could produce more for us directly.

3. We look for different nubs. I've got various samples from Fatih which we can easily get and use. One is the nub that's being used in the 3DS. It has a bigger travel distance, does not need to be soldered (flex cable) and is pretty smooth. But it doesn't have a stick-click.

It's not the end of the world, just a small annoyance.
 
I don't know the EOL Pyra nub but I really like the 3DS one. If it is an easy solution, I do not mind at all that the nub is not clickable.
 
I'm for more travel distance if possible, so that solution would be great. :)  I didn't knew that the Pyra Nubs are supposed to have stick-click but anyways, I didn't missed that feature onto the Pandora and there are enough buttons to compensate imho.  ^
 
Xbox360 and Ps3 are clickable. But I don't like this feature and never use it. When I have no choice, I don't like it, when I nub-clic, I loose the direction and must be at 0,0 for it to work.


Seriously, try to move like +25%/-40% and clic without moving...


So yeah, no nub-clic is fine for me too.
 
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Does this mean the new nubs can click in any position? (that its able to click in all extreme directions)

If at least the right nub is clickable then that can act as middleclick even if the left nub doesnt have click.
 
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Does this mean the new nubs can click in any position? (that its able to click in all extreme directions)
No I think it means they don't click at all.


At any rate something different will need to be done.
 
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Has anyone actually tried the new nubs? I assumed less travel distance is better. That might be due to thinkpad, where there isnt any. And with that you can go slow or fast at will.

Thumbs are very accurate, introducing more play (compared to what can be achieved with less) is theoretically just more time spent going from one to the other.

Give it a chance, I'm thinking the changes must have some merit since they discontinued the old model right away.

Its not like they need a new-and-fresh 2014 nub, it could be a patent issue, but i don't understand why one is different from the other.

That its one production company and one for sales is a bit iffy. They would in some cases benefit from making something defunct once they have sold all their stock.

Edit: The 3DS nub on the original 3DS has horrible bite when you try to move anywhere, and it chafers against the case. It will also be permanently grooved if you use a nail on it.

Functionality aside pandoranubs feel like a luxury option to the 3DS one.

Something that doesnt spin around is my main gripe about pandanubs. Also there could be more grip.

Edit2: Gcw-zero nubs without oil are coarse and they feel like the bottom is scraping against the foundation.
 
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Stick click can't be compared to the one from xbox360 or ps3 since it's a flat nub so it's like pressing a regular button, I want stick clicks for mouse clicks. Also, according to ED, magnet nubs are very durable (virtually indestructible) and accurate. If a disc can be build, a larger disc can be done if more travel course is better.
 
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I'm confident there's better nubs out there. :) maybe this is a blessing. In disguise


Edit. I have a 3DS XL it's nub has proven to be quite durable after shoving dimes and credit cards under it to hatch Pokemon eggs.
 
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How about skipping mechanical nubs entirely for a touch-pad type interface?

Valve tried something similar to this in their Steam controller - but missed the mark.

The problem is tactile feedback - there just isn't any when dealing with a flat surface. Valve tried adding concentric rings - which was also a fail as the thumb would minutely 'catch' on the inconsistent surface.

So - my thought is to use very broad parabolic cups with the touchpad layer on them. Dead center is the bottom of the cup, full X+ (right) is a climb-right with the thumb.

The diameter of the 'dished trackpad' could be as large as the space currently assigned to the nubs. The 'depth could actually go from the circuit board+1mm in the center to nearly as high as the game buttons on the outer edges.

I think it can be as fast or faster than nubs and as accurate or more.

The catch is that nobody has ever made anything quite like it. There are no off-the-shelf components to match. So there would be a modestly insane development hill to climb.

So - the idea is there. But realistically we're all looking forward to ED finding a new nub to fit the current hardware design.
 
Yeah, my 3DS circle pad doesn't scrape when I move it. It's a fine nub, almost suitable as a d-pad replacement as well as an analogue nub (luckily, since the 3DS d-pad is in such a daft place).


I'm not convinced that losing nub click is a big deal. I didn't like it when the PS2 and 360 introduced it (albeit on analogue sticks rather than flat nubs), and the fact you can only click it in the centre has meant you can only drag holding one button if you use them as mouse buttons. But on the other hand, the keyboard designs have been made around using those as the mouse buttons in the main, so it's a shame that they'll need to be reworked if the nubs lose this functionality.
 
With a parabolic disk/concave dome, it still doesnt track evenly, because you aren't presenting it with a perfectly round thumb. Parabolic nubs like on the pandora have more grip, but maybe they could have had a groove on one side to accomodate a thumb. Then they wouldnt rotate.

I i propose making them as concave as possible, and then have a grove northwest on the left nub and northeast on the right nub.

If we are on the visionary ideas train, a trackpad that can be clicked which also is a screen would be useful not only as mouse input, but also for other scenarios, like games where only dpad is used.

I suppose that would be a small touchscreen with a good touchlayer and a switch under it.
 
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maybe ED can buy remaining batches from the choosen nubs?
I was thinking the same thing.  It isn't a good (or affordable) option, but it gives them time to figure out another long term option.

1. Try to build our own magnet-disk and integrate them into the case. Need to check that with the design company.
2. We know the company that produced the mechanical parts for AMS (the company where we're getting the nubs). We could ask whether they could produce more for us directly.

3. We look for different nubs. I've got various samples from Fatih which we can easily get and use. One is the nub that's being used in the 3DS. It has a bigger travel distance, does not need to be soldered (flex cable) and is pretty smooth. But it doesn't have a stick-click.
1.  If the case company does this also it shows how great they are, at least to me.  They've done a lot to come up with a good solution for everything you have given them so far.  I understand that they are getting paid, and they want to keep a customer, I just know how it feels to be the person that repeatedly says "I need another little thing changed", and eventually they may not want to bother with you anymore (or at least that is what I feel will happen).

2.  Are they the ones that are discontinuing production?  I would like to know what they think, and how much it would raise the price per Pyra to go with this.  Since you would still need to get the hall sensors from whoever produces them what would happen if you procure the mechanical parts and then the sensors are discontinued?

3.  I suspect this is the best option.  I haven't spent extremely long periods with the 3DS nubs, so I don't know how they stand up with lots of use and abuse.  They always felt fragile to me, but if this isn't the case, and they have more travel distance I am sure many will be happy with the results.  I would like feedback from anyone with extensive experience using and, especially, abusing them, so we know if they loosen significantly or fail.  I was looking forward to the nub click for mouse buttons, but the options used on the Pandora worked.  Maybe we can get 2 more face buttons. :p   ;)

Since a few people have commented on nub clicking, if it worked well I would use it.  I have used it on controllers, notably the DualShock line.  Even if it wasn't used in games it would allow for mouse button input without taking away any functions on buttons, and allowing the right nub to be used for scrolling.

If at least the right nub is clickable then that can act as middleclick even if the left nub doesnt have click.
What is the benefit of this over left click on the right nub?

Functionality aside pandoranubs feel like a luxury option to the 3DS one.
I also prefer the feel of the Pandora nubs, but that could be because I use them far more than the 3DS nub thing.

I'm confident there's better nubs out there. maybe this is a blessing. In disguise
I think the concern is if they can be purchased in the required quantities at a price per pair of nubs that will not seem outrageous to Pyra buyers.  If cost didn't matter I am sure a nub could be designed specifically for the Pyra with everything we want.

How about skipping mechanical nubs entirely for a touch-pad type interface?
I suppose this is worth considering.  I hate using most laptops with touchpads because I end up brushing them when typing, or other little problems.  Since they will be in the upper middle instead of the bottom the chances of your thumb hitting it while typing is reduced, but it may be a bigger problem when playing a game with your thumbs bouncing around the keys, and that could quickly destroy the fun of playing games on the Pyra.  Another concern is the size of the area of these 2 tiny touchpads.  I don't know if there would be enough room for them to be as usable as nubs.  A bigger problem might be them being able to provide input in the same way a nub does.  What I mean is that with a nub you can hold it in a certain position, and make minor adjustments, and this is all from 0,0 or whatever.  With touchpads your finger can land anywhere, and when you move your thumb and stop can it be made to function in the same way as a nub in the same scenario?  How difficult will it be to implement.

Maybe we can get a second, smaller screen. :p

If we are on the visionary ideas train, a trackpad that can be clicked which also is a screen would be useful not only as mouse input, but also for other scenarios, like games where only dpad is used.

I suppose that would be a small touchscreen with a good touchlayer and a switch under it.
I guess you beat me to it...  I would prefer to skip it clicking/acting as a button, like on new laptops.  Perhaps I am just set in my ways, but I dislike the feel of those, and when you add more moving parts, especially to a display, you increase the chances of something going wrong.

I i propose making them as concave as possible, and then have a grove northwest on the left nub and northeast on the right nub.
I think I understand why you want this, but I don't think it would change much.  I would need to try it out to see if I like it, or if it just adds more complexity to the design/manufacture for little to no gain in function.

Edit:

It's not the end of the world, just a small annoyance.
I was just thinking a bit more about this.  If you have to go with a different nub will the board need to be modified to accommodate it?
 
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