Is the Oculus Rift doomed?

[God Ginrai]

Anyway, there is a HUGE difference between notifying me when one of the games I added to my wishlist is on sale, or showing me recommendations based on my library and previous searches... and showing me targeted ads based even on things like sexual or political preferences, or even religious beliefs...

Actually, there's no difference at all there. It's the same process, it just involves a different data set.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

I don't know if your previous post was intended to be ironic or not

It was not, you're just not thinking about it right.

Anyway, there is a HUGE difference between notifying me when one of the games I added to my wishlist is on sale, or showing me recommendations based on my library and previous searches... and showing me targeted ads based even on things like sexual or political preferences

Only in specifics; at the high level it's the exact same thing: taking data you willingly provide and using it to try and sell you something. The only reason you think there's a huge difference is because you expect Steam, a game retail channel, to try and sell you something, whereas on Facebook the sales pitches are irrelevant to and getting in the way of the primary use of it.

Things like these are already happening, as you should know if you read the links I wrote in my previous post

The fact that you think I'm not aware of these things leads me to conclude that you didn't fully understand what I wrote. Go back over it line by line and let me know where it is confusing and I'll try to clarify.

 

[Granitehead]

It's not the same thing at all if you look at it the right way. The type of data makes all the difference.

When a gaming platform analyses my gaming habits and everything related to it to display me targeted ads of the same company, for games, then I might even like this. After all I might discover a new game I like in that way. I /want/ to buy games if I sign up for this kind of platform. So it's okay if they try to sell me games.

But when some other company which is just supposed to provide a platform for social interactions analyses my political and philosophical opinions, my life style, /everything/ they can, to try and display me ads, then this is something completely different. They aren't trying to help me doing what I signed up for. They are trying to make money with something completely unrelated and they knowingly take the risk that people may use the service to identify people with controversial opinions, disliked minorities, whatever.

 

[God Ginrai]

It's not the same thing at all if you look at it the right way. The type of data makes all the difference.

When a gaming platform analyses my gaming habits and everything related to it to display me targeted ads of the same company, for games, then I might even like this. After all I might discover a new game I like in that way. I /want/ to buy games if I sign up for this kind of platform. So it's okay if they try to sell me games.

Valve tries to sell you what you tend to play.

But when some other company which is just supposed to provide a platform for social interactions analyses my political and philosophical opinions, my life style, /everything/ they can, to try and display me ads, then this is something completely different. They aren't trying to help me doing what I signed up for. They are trying to make money with something completely unrelated and they knowingly take the risk that people may use the service to identify people with controversial opinions, disliked minorities, whatever.

Facebook tries to sell you what you tend to talk about.

Yea... sooo different...

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

It's not the same thing at all if you look at it the right way.

The right way? I disagree.It doesn't matter whether it is ok or not. Being "ok", or moral, or whatever word you want to put to it makes absolutely no difference.

Fact: Facebook uses your data to try and sell you stuff.

Fact: Valve uses your data to try and sell you stuff.

 

[Granitehead]

Facebook tries to sell you what you tend to talk about.

First of all, Facebook doesn't try to sell me anything. That was one of my points. It's in there, right in my post, for you to read. Facebook isn't a shop.

Fact: Facebook uses your data to try and sell you stuff.

Fact: Valve uses your data to try and sell you stuff.

Fact: I don't mind Valve doing this.Fact: I do mind about Facebook.

I'm not denying those facts, read my post again. Of course technically they do the same stuff. But:

The type of data makes all the difference.

My point was, Valve does exactly what I'm expecting them to (and what they in fact try to make me expect) and what I signed up for: They sell games.

Facebook does what I expect it to do too, but I wouldn't expect that if I read a statement by Facebook themselves. They say they provide a service for social interactions and stuff. They try to hide it as much as legally possible that their service isn't actually free and that they'll share parts of your data with third parties, etc.

 

[WizardStan]

I don't know what you think you're arguing against anymore. Back up, all the way to the beginning, and tell me what you think it is that I said that you disagree with because I guarantee that if you're this adamant about proving something wrong then you didn't understand me.

 

[God Ginrai]

First of all, Facebook doesn't try to sell me anything.

Yea, they do. Those ads that show up on the right are straight from Facebook. People pay Facebook to sell you things. If they were ads from other providers, rather than from Facebook themselves, then they would be blocked by Noscript by default due to coming from a different origin.

They try to hide it as much as legally possible that their service isn't actually free and that they'll share parts of your data with third parties, etc.

Because Ad-supported websites is somehow a foreign concept to you.

-God Ginrai

 

[Klumpen]

First of all, Facebook doesn't try to sell me anything. That was one of my points. It's in there, right in my post, for you to read. Facebook isn't a shop.

Yes it is. It is a shop for user data and they are selling them at good prices. They have become rich this way.

I know the production scale would have been a problem, but would it really have been so difficult to find investors for this rather than just selling the whole company?

I wonder...

Nobody has thoughts on that?

 

[Askarus]

It's not the same thing at all if you look at it the right way. The type of data makes all the difference.


When a gaming platform analyses my gaming habits and everything related to it to display me targeted ads of the same company, for games, then I might even like this. After all I might discover a new game I like in that way. I /want/ to buy games if I sign up for this kind of platform. So it's okay if they try to sell me games.

Valve tries to sell you what you tend to play.

But when some other company which is just supposed to provide a platform for social interactions analyses my political and philosophical opinions, my life style, /everything/ they can, to try and display me ads, then this is something completely different. They aren't trying to help me doing what I signed up for. They are trying to make money with something completely unrelated and they knowingly take the risk that people may use the service to identify people with controversial opinions, disliked minorities, whatever.

Facebook tries to sell you what you tend to talk about.


Yea... sooo different...

-God Ginrai

In fact it is.

I have no problem if I get game suggestions that fit the games I like.

It's only gaming habits.

It's just gaming.

Not my whole private life and habits.

It is a huge difference.

Also gamers might like to know about new games because it's only game advertisement you see if you open up the Steam client.

If you get some random advertisement which is related to anything what might be connected to your life it's totally different.

Also I don't care if Valve knows what type of games I'm playing.

I do care if Facebook knows everything I want to tell other people.

(I don't have Facebook)

 

[WizardStan]

In fact it is.

To the extent that God Ginrai and I are talking about, no it isn't. They both collect your data to sell you stuff, end of point. Whether you are ok with one and not the other is entirely immaterial to the fact that they are doing it.

 

[_jr_]

Yes, it is not different in practice and it isn't even different in theory. The data that Valve may legally collect and share according to Steam's terms of service are just as interesting as facebook's to the burglar next door or the secret police. If I wanted to break into your flat, knowing the time you spent online gaming over a couple of weeks is all the information I'm gonna need.

 

[WizardStan]

If I wanted to break into your flat, knowing the time you spent online gaming over a couple of weeks is all the information I'm gonna need.

While that may be true, it still has no bearing on what I was talking about. :/

 

[doragasu]

Two examples:

1. I go to a clothes shop. A shop assistant watches what I'm buying and recommends me a complement.

2. I go to a pub with my friends. The bartender peeks at our conversations and starts recommending us all kind of shit: dandruff shampoo, movie tickets, health items, viagra, etc...

#1 is what Valve is doing.

#2 is what Facebook is doing.

If you cannot spot the huge difference I was pointing out, and why #1 is right, but #2 is weird, dangerous, etc... you are just blind.

Now take example #2, but imagine it happens not only in the pub, but everywhere: the streets, the clothes shop of example #1, your home, etc... Remember Facebook tracks your Internet browsing even if you are not logged in, and even if you are not a FB user... To me this is a clear invasion to my privacy.

 

[Klumpen]

Two examples:

1. I go to a clothes shop. A shop assistant watches what I'm buying and recommends me a complement.

2. I go to a pub with my friends. The bartender peeks at our conversations and starts recommending us all kind of shit: dandruff shampoo, movie tickets, health items, viagra, etc...

#1 is what Valve is doing.

#2 is what Facebook is doing.

You forgot that #2 is recording everything you do with cameras and making lists with names of his customers and selling their conversation topics and preferences to shops and marketing guys.

Imagine a bartender actually doing that... creepy.

 

[Askarus]

For me it's the same as Klumpen and doragasu say.

They use user data to help select games for Steam sales, they notify you when one of your wishlist is on sale, they recommend things based on play history.

Oh no, they send me an E-mail when a Game on my wishlist is on sale.

Isn't that exactly why you put games on a wishlist?

I do.

Should I be angry if bandcamp (online music store) sends me an E-mail if there's a new song/album of an artist I do follow?

If so, why don't I stop following artists but make a private list of Artists I want to check from time to time.

Selecting popular/unpopular stuff for sales?

Oh come one.

If a store wouldn't watch what sort of games it's customers like then they can stop selling stuff right away.

Let's go further:

DragonBox shop does the same in some sort.

We see that lots of people buy some specific products so we want to have them in stock.

We also see some products do sell badly, so we might not want to get more of it or maybe do a sale to at least sell them for buying costs.

There's even a wishlist. If you sign up you'll get an E-mail if a product that's not in stock rigt now is available (oh no, how evil, you get informed if something you want is availabe).

If you don't watch your customers then you don't need a business.

Difference is we don't collect personal (!) data or sell it to someone.

We don't collect data from customer Messages or other personal/private.

In some way you have to watch what sells good and does not. Then you can make special offers and such.

Of course you want to sell stuff to people if you have a business but you can do it in an evil or in an ethical way.

Sending E-mails to customers who signed up in a wishlist because they want that E-mail and giving special offers for products a lot of people like is no misuse of personal Data.

 

[WizardStan]

Ok, I'm asking again, what the hell do you people think I said? Quote me, tell me where I went wrong, because whatever your arguing against is not what I meant to say.

If you cannot spot the huge difference I was pointing out, and why #1 is right, but #2 is weird, dangerous, etc... you are just blind.

Of course there's a difference, but the difference is immaterial to what I commented on. I've already said twice that I didn't make any comment about whether something is right, ok, amoral, whatever word you want to put to it.Fact: they are both using your data to sell you stuff. Period. That is the be all and end all of what I stated. There is absolutely nothing in anything that I have said (and this is the third time I have explicitly said otherwise, so if I accidentally implied it at the start then the explicit statements should have corrected that error) that even touched on whether one was "dangerous" or not.

Was it because I then went on to say that, as a game developer and retailer, the OR data would be of more use to Valve than Facebook? Because that's still true, it doesn't matter whether you think that's acceptable or not.

 

[doragasu]

My bad, it was God Ginrai who stated there is no difference. Dunno why I thought it was you. Sorry for that.

 

[doragasu]

Was it because I then went on to say that, as a game developer and retailer, the OR data would be of more use to Valve than Facebook? Because that's still true, it doesn't matter whether you think that's acceptable or not.

How exactly is the OR data more useful to Valve than it is to FB? Valve does already have access to your play data. Maybe OR could give them more information about "how" you play, but they could extract that same data using other methods if they wanted (at least for their own games). Facebook is who does know nothing about what games you play on Steam, and could collect a lot of "extra" information.

 

[WizardStan]

it was God Ginrai who stated there is no difference

Actually, there's no difference at all there

Bolded for emphasis. He, as I, was talking very specifically about the high level "take your data, sell you stuff". He then repeated those statements again, for clarification.

Valve does already have access to your play data.

Some of it, but they could do with more. Right now people are using completely open things like mice, keyboards, and monitors. Valve only gets play times for things that are run through Steam, and once the game is running they can't really check for much else. With the hypothetical spyware that some are afraid will be put in the OR, they'd have direct access to the input and output. They'd be able to know just how active you were at things, they could find out how you react to changes in the picture or sound. They could collate all that data to figure out, I don't know, maybe you like to play bright and sunny games on certain days of the week and they'll present you with something that matches that when you log in at those times. They could use the data to develop scarier horror games, or figure out where to place action sequences, or anything else like that. Lots of scenarios, many ways the data could be used.

Facebook is who does know nothing about what games you play on Steam, and could collect a lot of "extra" information.

But of what use would it be? I didn't say who would get more data, I said I think it would be more useful to Valve than to Facebook. I could be wrong, but simply suggesting that Facebook gets more data out of the deal doesn't prove it.