Is Pyra expensive outdated hardware?

[levi]

I thought I had seen people over there mention Atari.  The funny thing is for a while back then I didn't think Atari computers were that popular even though I knew 2 families that owned one, and I knew none that owned Commodore machines.  We had an IBM compatible (not really for young hands to touch, though...actually, that is a lie, there was one at each of my parent's houses and I don't think I was restricted from using the one my father had, but I didn't mess with it as much as I wish I had when younger since I was busy doing other stuff), and most schools and libraries had things from Apple (but in my experience it was a rare treat to use them, and that was often restricted to educational games...if you wanted to learn more you had to find another way to get time with them, which I did but it was still not enough to be of much value).  Over here almost every family with children I knew had some sort of video game console, so I do think that played a part.  I guess our NES was supposed to be fore the kids, and the computer was supposed to be for adults (even if the kids knew better how to use it).  Based on conversations I have had as an adult, some people that were a little older than me seemed more likely to have computers when they were younger.  That would be people who were able to put them to use in the late 70s up to the mid 80s.  It really seems to me that NES and the next generation of consoles took a big chunk of the market.  One of my schools even had a subscription to Nintendo Power, and my friends always tried to be the first ones there when a new issue was released.  People younger than me were also more likely to have a computer in their home after the WWW became popular, and by that point computers were widely used in school and were present in many of my classrooms, with plenty available in libraries, both in schools and not, but we are talking early to mid 90s here.  Since I was already spending all my free time at libraries I just shifted most of my time from books to computers, often helping out the librarians.

I had forgotten about the Apple II it's fair to say, thanks for that!

The older kids having computers while younger more likely to have a NES is probably down to the NES only being released in '85 in the states - after the ST had been released, but before the Amiga.  It was cheaper than either I assume though.  In Europe the NES didn't come out till '86, and if you wanted a cheap games machine there you bought a Spectrum (or an Acorn Electron, rofl).  You also saw a lot of BBC Micros in schools due to the government subsidising them starting in 1981.

The WWW wasn't even a thing until 1990, and Netscape Navigator only came out in '94, mid nineties as you say.  By then people were either making do with creaking Amigas and STs or already had a PC (either a 486 or a pricey Pentium).  Or had jumped to consoles with the more successful MegaDrive and SNES (or even a handheld like a Gameboy, Lynx or Gamegear).

 

[WizardStan]

But that's not really the point though, is it? The fact that these tools exist means that your assertion is shaky at best

Oh hush you. Fine, my statement was incorrect. But it's generally true enough, especially in this case, that it tipped me off to the cheater.

 

[rygD]

I had forgotten about the Apple II it's fair to say, thanks for that!

Even people that weren't regular computer users over here probably encountered them at school, as they were still present in 2000.

The older kids having computers while younger more likely to have a NES is probably down to the NES only being released in '85 in the states - after the ST had been released, but before the Amiga.  It was cheaper than either I assume though.  In Europe the NES didn't come out till '86, and if you wanted a cheap games machine there you bought a Spectrum (or an Acorn Electron, rofl).  You also saw a lot of BBC Micros in schools due to the government subsidising them starting in 1981.

What I was saying is over here it wouldn't surprise me if some kids who would have otherwise received a C64 or other computer ended up with NESs instead. I was too young to know that I should ask for a computer, and by the time I figured it out we had one I wasn't allowed to use. Most other kids my age didn't seem to have them either other than those that had older siblings. I know some my age had them, but none of the people I hung out with without older siblings did, and I regularly moved around the country. I think the NES filled a similar part of the market and was purchased instead of a cheap computer for many people. After the release of the NES maybe the only kids that got computers for several years were those that were specifically asking for them.

The WWW wasn't even a thing until 1990, and Netscape Navigator only came out in '94, mid nineties as you say. By then people were either making do with creaking Amigas and STs or already had a PC (either a 486 or a pricey Pentium). Or had jumped to consoles with the more successful MegaDrive and SNES (or even a handheld like a Gameboy, Lynx or Gamegear).

I had a GB. The point I was trying to make is that computers provide many more advantages than consoles, and based even on my early interests it would have been better for me in the long run. I might actually have some programming skills, amongst other things I could have been working on from a younger age. While those around my age did grow up with computers, they weren't extremely common in the home until after the WWW was a big thing. I was sort of looking at all of this from a perspective of "if I was 5 years older or younger I could have had more of a headstart on my career", but really they just weren't too common in the home most of my childhood. (The person I know that had a ZX80 is nearly double my age, and that was his first time using a computer, so I guess he got an even later start.) Now it is uncommon for a home not to have a computer (or whatever they have now been boiled down to, like a tablet).
Another fun thing to take away from all of this is I guess I am still obsessed with these things that made such an impact on me in my first decade of life, owning multiple, often modded in some way, of each, the Apple IIe, NES and GB.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

OK moving on, I mean since the problem has already been solved by someone on the internet, why would I reinvent the wheel and try to do it again?  The teacher shouldn't blame me for using someone else's solution to solve his unoriginal problem. If he wants me to solve the problem on my own, he should give me a problem that no one has solved before.  Well, I should blame the teacher too since he himself copy that problem from someone else and give it to me to solve

Are you sure you want problems that no one has solved before as homework? Really?

When you learned to read, did you also insist on starting with an alphabet and a language nobody has read before?

But this is not about starting to learn how to read.  This is about people in high school and college taking high school and college exams, and about people interviewing for jobs.

 

[levi]

The older kids having computers while younger more likely to have a NES is probably down to the NES only being released in '85 in the states - after the ST had been released, but before the Amiga.  It was cheaper than either I assume though.  In Europe the NES didn't come out till '86, and if you wanted a cheap games machine there you bought a Spectrum (or an Acorn Electron, rofl).  You also saw a lot of BBC Micros in schools due to the government subsidising them starting in 1981.

What I was saying is over here it wouldn't surprise me if some kids who would have otherwise received a C64 or other computer ended up with NESs instead. I was too young to know that I should ask for a computer, and by the time I figured it out we had one I wasn't allowed to use. Most other kids my age didn't seem to have them either other than those that had older siblings. I know some my age had them, but none of the people I hung out with without older siblings did, and I regularly moved around the country. I think the NES filled a similar part of the market and was purchased instead of a cheap computer for many people. After the release of the NES maybe the only kids that got computers for several years were those that were specifically asking for them.

As I remember, Nintendo fairly confused the matter by denying that the NES was a games console.  In Japan of course it was the 'family computer', but I don't know enough about Japanese culture to say if that was deliberate obfuscation about the nature of the device in the way it was in the west.  Initially at least over here, it was sold as a educational device, as much as a game machine, hence the inclusion of the ROB robot in early bundles.

I'd tend to agree that I'd not be nearly as proficient on a computer if I hadn't had a programmable computer as a child.  The fact they were so incapable, but so programmable, combined with easy access to graphics and sound commands, so you could get a fairly impressive result with ease really helped with the learning curve (even if after that point it all got very difficult very quickly to achieve significant progress).  I guess ZXDunny's PandaBas is the closest you can get to that sort of environment these days, particularly on the Pandora.

That said, I don't believe it's helpful to think - if only this had happened when I was that age.  You can still learn the things you'd have learned then now, if you put your mind to it.  To learn as effectively now though, you'd probably need to remove a lot of modern distractions - like this place for instance!

 

[Neelix]

Are you sure you want problems that no one has solved before as homework? Really?

When you learned to read, did you also insist on starting with an alphabet and a language nobody has read before?

But this is not about starting to learn how to read.  This is about people in high school and college taking high school and college exams, and about people interviewing for jobs.

That's not really relevant.  When you are learning anything, be that, how to read or how to program in c++ you need to start with the basics.   The basics, being the basics, are fairly limited in scope,  so there's only so many examples you can use to demonstrate them.   After that, anything else you learn has to build off what you know.  

There's also the learning environment to take into consideration.  The teachers often have to disseminate their knowledge to large numbers of people.  To expect them to come up with different ways of teaching the same thing every time they teach it is insanity.

-Neelix

 

[rygD]

 

As I remember, Nintendo fairly confused the matter by denying that the NES was a games console.  In Japan of course it was the 'family computer', but I don't know enough about Japanese culture to say if that was deliberate obfuscation about the nature of the device in the way it was in the west.  Initially at least over here, it was sold as a educational device, as much as a game machine, hence the inclusion of the ROB robot in early bundles.

I don't even remember what year we got ours.  I will guess 88 since that seems to be the right age, other things line up, and I think we had the Power Set.  I don't remember how it was initially marketed, I just remember seeing stuff, including ROB (robots are cool), in stores.  I do know the NES design was to make it look as different from what people expected a video games console to look like as they could.  The difference between the Atari VCS my cousin had and our NES was striking.

That said, I don't believe it's helpful to think - if only this had happened when I was that age.  You can still learn the things you'd have learned then now, if you put your mind to it.  To learn as effectively now though, you'd probably need to remove a lot of modern distractions - like this place for instance!

It isn't helpful, but it isn't harmful.  I made the best of what I had.  I don't have time to learn programming right now (other than the class I completed a few months ago that everyone pretended was an into programming class, but was far below even my newbie level).  I do have a couple of ideas that may help me pick up some skills along the way.  Failing that, when I have more free time I will either learn the fun way by experimenting with things I already want to play with, or by trying to start with C.  If someone offers me something more structured, or I have help, I would consider something else.

 

[rygD]

OK moving on, I mean since the problem has already been solved by someone on the internet, why would I reinvent the wheel and try to do it again?  The teacher shouldn't blame me for using someone else's solution to solve his unoriginal problem. If he wants me to solve the problem on my own, he should give me a problem that no one has solved before.  Well, I should blame the teacher too since he himself copy that problem from someone else and give it to me to solve

Are you sure you want problems that no one has solved before as homework? Really?

When you learned to read, did you also insist on starting with an alphabet and a language nobody has read before?

But this is not about starting to learn how to read.  This is about people in high school and college taking high school and college exams, and about people interviewing for jobs.

Actually, this is about the Pyra hardware and cost.

Maybe someone in this thread wants to hire me for a programming job.  I can use Google to figure out how to do what they want.

 

[Luke-Jr]

Maybe the ideal solution is to pick an Android phone with good specs, good open source/mainline Linux support, no stupid firmware lockdown, and build a custom case+keyboard for it... then just install a sane OS instead of Android.

 

[FaeMinx]

^ Hey, what a great idea! Why didn't we think of that?

 

[Klumpen]

Maybe the ideal solution is to pick an Android phone with good specs, good open source/mainline Linux support, no stupid firmware lockdown, and build a custom case+keyboard for it... then just install a sane OS instead of Android.

You mean like:

 

[redlemon]

Depends, and a piece of enthusiast hardware then probably not but as something that's purely for games then yes absolutely. I used to have a caanoo but the analog stick broke on me. I'd really love another similar type of linux gaming device but the only other option is the gcw zero which to be frank I'm not interested in since it's mips it doesn't have a decent psx emulator. I tried a G5A but Android is a bit of an awkward OS for a gaming handheld.

I know even if he was planning it ED probably wouldn't be mentioning it until the Pyra was well out the door but I'd love to see him do a simpler cheaper linux handheld (say 250-300 euro max) device.

 

[DaMummy]

I know even if he was planning it ED probably wouldn't be mentioning it until the Pyra was well out the door but I'd love to see him do a simpler cheaper linux handheld (say 250-300 euro max) device.

I believe we've had one of those for a couple years now? 

 

[Timstertoo]

I would guess that one factor - besides being crusaders on a mission of course - is the repetitiveness of it. As Klumpen alludes to above, more or less this exact thread tends to pop up every 3 months or so, and in the end some of the more temporally advanced board dwellers tend to lose their temper a bit.

Which is a bit unfair to every new person asking the same question, but still. I do get the same urge, sometimes, when I'm grading exams. By the 35th identical error I tend to want to write "I've already told you that is wrong!!! Why do you keep making the same error!!!" It takes great effort to remember that it is actually different students behind every exam

I think it's a great sign these threads pop up. Means new people are taking an interest and ED needs fresh blood to make the numbers work.

Everyone always has the option to not read and not post in those threads and let the newer people go through their own "growing up" in the community and give them space to gather their own insights.

OP went out of his way in his first post to make sure we all knew it wasn't complaining and he was going to buy a Pyra regardless and has ben gracious in his answers throughout the thread. I really don't get why so many had to jump on him instead of either answering the questions in a constructive manner or simply ignoring it because of that thread again.

 

[Luke-Jr]

Maybe the ideal solution is to pick an Android phone with good specs, good open source/mainline Linux support, no stupid firmware lockdown, and build a custom case+keyboard for it... then just install a sane OS instead of Android.

 You mean like:

Wait, does this exist?

 

[Klumpen]

Maybe the ideal solution is to pick an Android phone with good specs, good open source/mainline Linux support, no stupid firmware lockdown, and build a custom case+keyboard for it... then just install a sane OS instead of Android.

 
You mean like:

Wait, does this exist?

Nope, but there's a grand story behind this many people here are probably eager to tell you about.

It's about Evil Dragon's former business partner Craig Rothwell.

There was a kickstarter for this which reached the goal.

Basically, he (Mr. C) took the money and ran - well, drove off in a new Nissan Leaf and made a long transatlantic holiday in America, afaik.

 

[Binky]

Basically, he (Mr. C) took the money and ran

Thats one interpretation. But not necessarily a well-founded one.

What we know is that the iControlPad2 design was largely complete, that the kickstarter reached its target, that the project ran over-budget, out of time, and into difficulties sourcing parts. It was cancelled.

A lot of people here put the failure down to poor, or even malicious/criminal, management on the part of Craigix. I can see why  they reach that conclusion, but there is very little publicly-available evidence either way.

 

[LEOXD]

^ see also: WP:AGF

 

[Exophase]

Thats one interpretation. But not necessarily a well-founded one.

What we know is that the iControlPad2 design was largely complete, that the kickstarter reached its target, that the project ran over-budget, out of time, and into difficulties sourcing parts. It was cancelled.

A lot of people here put the failure down to poor, or even malicious/criminal, management on the part of Craigix. I can see why  they reach that conclusion, but there is very little publicly-available evidence either way.

There was actually a pretty decent breakdown of how the money was spent:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14882-icp2-theyre-throwing-in-the-towel/page-48

$64k was controlled by Craig. The rest of the money is reasonably accounted for: it was spent on parts, earmarked for manufacturing, or spent on other overhead like taxes and accounting. Some of this money was lost forever, some of it was partially lost due in resell of purchased items, and some of it was still available: this is what manifested in the refunds (don't know exactly what the refund pool was in the end)

Some of Craig's $64k was specifically allocated for case design and may or may not have been spent on that, we have no idea of this. What we do know is thousands (I would estimate about $10k) were spent on items that were never going to contribute to iCP2's development like that 3D printer and fulfilling several outstanding Pandora preorders. The other $54k isn't really a lot of money and we know Craig had employment problems during this time so it easily could have been sunk in personal expenses.

At worst we can say that Craig may have ran off with about a third of the money. It's hard to judge intent but I doubt he was (at least initially) deliberately planning to take that portion of the money without fulfilling his obligations for iCP2 development, there's just too much that doesn't fit this narrative. But I do think he at least poorly managed this money and spent at least parts of it on things he shouldn't have and he wasn't upfront about it with his partners or backers.

So basically we can give him some benefit of the doubt and say he's not necessarily a scam artist but definitely not so much benefit of the doubt that you can blame iCP2's failure purely on external forces. Not someone you should ever give money to in any capacity in the future.

 

[EvilDragon]

My guess is still that the issue was the keyboard.


When I checked about keyboards for the Pyra, I found out you can't get a dome cap keyboard is low numbers for less than 15 EUR.


AFAIK he planned about 3 - 4 EUR per keyboard, based on Pandoras one.


So production costs would've been higher than what he got from Kickstarter...


I think that was one of the main problems Craig always had: Estimating things (without asking), assuming they will be cheaper and never including safety or risk money into his calculations.


Pandora was calculated too cheap by him as well at the beginning.