Irrlicht..... Compiles....... Runs.......


It is gles 2.0 and you can't accuse Irrlicht of bloat really - you have to bare in mind its a *desktop* engine, designed initially for the desktop, for years (before gles was even dreamed up) it was solely openGL and some other desktop graphic library. (ya wanna see bloat get a total file size on all the core ogre libraries...)

Don't forget the gles tag in not in trunk I'd say its probably not considered release quality...?

The gles 1 driver is missing a whole bunch of features and doesn't seem to have been given as much love alas

However the gles2 driver has fixed pipeline shaders, so I'm going to get them working outside of Irrlicht and benchmark them against the gles1.1 library, there might be grounds for spending more time improving the 1.1 drivers (that'll upset some people! :p )

I'm still of the mind that to get really sick fast games on the pandora what's needed is a *simple* ultra light engine that doesn't try to ape gaudy desktop effects. I really am not spending time admiring the 4 layer multi-textured multiple normal map, bump mapped with per vertex moss effect wall as I run past it trying to frag some teenager... :D

Additionally held at a comfortable gaming distance the pandora's beautiful screen is a much smaller percentage of your view field than your desktop monitor is, even at a further distance, no where near the level of detail is actually needed.

The shaders in the quake map demo - look really, really nice on the pandoras screen close up, but its little use at around 15 or so fps...


oh and as for "getting it to compile" - a doddle! irrlicht is well written, all I had to do was add one line to the linux driver to allow it access to the gles driver (only the wince and ifone drivers were using it...) I really didn't have to do much at all!
 
chris_c said:
oh and as for "getting it to compile" - a doddle! irrlicht is well written, all I had to do was add one line to the linux driver to allow it access to the gles driver (only the wince and ifone drivers were using it...) I really didn't have to do much at all!
Click to expand...
Then color me surprised, last time I checkouted their source, I had to edit source/Irrlicht/CIrrDeviceLinux.cpp to had visibility to createOGLES2Driver function and actually use it. But the end result was less than enjoyable

So I guess, I should svn up :)

EDIT: No diff, hum :(
 
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chris_c said:
I'm still of the mind that to get really sick fast games on the pandora what's needed is a *simple* ultra light engine that doesn't try to ape gaudy desktop effects. I really am not spending time admiring the 4 layer multi-textured multiple normal map, bump mapped with per vertex moss effect wall as I run past it trying to frag some teenager... :D
Click to expand...
Maybe not "Desktop effects" but a Graphic comparable to the average NDS or PSP Game should be no problem when I remember that the Pandora is actualy more powerful than a NDS or a PSP. So how do coders for the commercial handhelds get that many Performance out of such "slow" machines? What Engine do they usualy use? Or do they use evil "dirty tricks" to have such a good Graphic with all that effects out of the limited Hardware?
Do the Pandora just lacks of really optimized drivers or where are the serious Bottle Necks?
 
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sebt3 said:
EDIT: No diff, hum :(
Click to expand...
And my build still complain about because my patch is not there :
Code: 
pandy:/media/pandy/irrlicht-gles/bin/Linux$ ./03.CustomSceneNode 
Please select the driver you want:
 (a) OpenGL-ES 2.x
 ( B) OpenGL-ES 1.x
 (c) OpenGL 1.x/2.x/3.x
 (d) Direct3D 9.0c
 (e) Direct3D 8.1
 (f) Burning's Video
 (g) Software Renderer
 (h) NullDriver
a
Irrlicht Engine version 1.7.1-beta
Linux 2.6.27.46-omap1 #1 Thu Aug 26 05:51:59 CEST 2010 armv7l
Creating X window...
Using plain X visual
Visual chosen: : 33
Unable to create video driver of unknown type.
So I guess I'm too dumb to build this.

May I have your build please ?
edit FYI : http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40133
 
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sebt3 said:
sebt3 said:
EDIT: No diff, hum :(
Click to expand...
And my build still complain about because my patch is not there :
Code: 
pandy:/media/pandy/irrlicht-gles/bin/Linux$ ./03.CustomSceneNode 
Please select the driver you want:
 (a) OpenGL-ES 2.x
 ( B) OpenGL-ES 1.x
 (c) OpenGL 1.x/2.x/3.x
 (d) Direct3D 9.0c
 (e) Direct3D 8.1
 (f) Burning's Video
 (g) Software Renderer
 (h) NullDriver
a
Irrlicht Engine version 1.7.1-beta
Linux 2.6.27.46-omap1 #1 Thu Aug 26 05:51:59 CEST 2010 armv7l
Creating X window...
Using plain X visual
Visual chosen: : 33
Unable to create video driver of unknown type.
So I guess I'm too dumb to build this.

May I have your build please ?
Click to expand...
as i said you need to add the driver to the linux device - just grep GLES2 the driver source files you'll see what I mean its about 3 lines actually not but its one statement from memory ;)
I'd give you my build if I hadn't deleted it...
 
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fusion_power said:
chris_c said:
I'm still of the mind that to get really sick fast games on the pandora what's needed is a *simple* ultra light engine that doesn't try to ape gaudy desktop effects. I really am not spending time admiring the 4 layer multi-textured multiple normal map, bump mapped with per vertex moss effect wall as I run past it trying to frag some teenager... :D
Click to expand...
Maybe not "Desktop effects" but a Graphic comparable to the average NDS or PSP Game should be no problem when I remember that the Pandora is actualy more powerful than a NDS or a PSP. So how do coders for the commercial handhelds get that many Performance out of such "slow" machines? What Engine do they usualy use? Or do they use evil "dirty tricks" to have such a good Graphic with all that effects out of the limited Hardware?
Do the Pandora just lacks of really optimized drivers or where are the serious Bottle Necks?
Click to expand...
bare in mind its a *desktop* engine
Click to expand...
The guys making proprietary games have their own engines in many cases tailored for the specifics of the hardware and with in depth information from the designers of the 3d hardware...
Its very very early days for the Pandora of the 900 or so I wonder what percentage are gles developers - with the time and or will to develop an engine there are out there...
 
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chris_c said:
The guys making proprietary games have their own engines in many cases tailored for the specifics of the hardware and with in depth information from the designers of the 3d hardware...
Its very very early days for the Pandora of the 900 or so I wonder what percentage are gles developers - with the time and or will to develop an engine there are out there...
Click to expand...
SO at the moment, there is no (free) ARM optimized Engine out there? I wonder because there are already gazillions of ARM mobile devices, not only Pandora but I'm sure the Pandora could benefit from such an Engine as long as it exists one. ^^"

NDS also has an ARM Chip, I guess the Homebrew-Scene for the Nintendo Handheld has to use something for their Programms. But I don't know how advanced NDS Homebrew already is, do the Coders have acess to all NDS Hardware Features or is it limited to some "Software only" stuff?
 
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fusion_power said:
chris_c said:
The guys making proprietary games have their own engines in many cases tailored for the specifics of the hardware and with in depth information from the designers of the 3d hardware...
Its very very early days for the Pandora of the 900 or so I wonder what percentage are gles developers - with the time and or will to develop an engine there are out there...
Click to expand...
SO at the moment, there is no (free) ARM optimized Engine out there? I wonder because there are already gazillions of ARM mobile devices, not only Pandora but I'm sure the Pandora could benefit from such an Engine as long as it exists one. ^^"

NDS also has an ARM Chip, I guess the Homebrew-Scene for the Nintendo Handheld has to use something for their Programms. But I don't know how advanced NDS Homebrew already is, do the Coders have acess to all NDS Hardware Features or is it limited to some "Software only" stuff?
Click to expand...
The pandora is *far* more than its central processor - thats what makes it such a powerful piece of kit, the NDS is fairly weak because of the hardware - as much of it is publicly known about anyhow.

two engines on different arm machines might have entirely different optimisations because of the supporting hardware and the type of bus architecture - what you're looking for is an omap engine specifically sgx omaps....
 
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chris_c said:
....<SNIP> what you're looking for is an omap engine specifically sgx omaps....
Click to expand...
I feel bound to ask...(ducks)....... Is there anyway of estimating what it would cost to have a 'professional' programmer with the required knowledge, equipment, back-up etc. etc. to produce said engine?
 
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Nation.A.List said:
chris_c said:
....<SNIP> what you're looking for is an omap engine specifically sgx omaps....
Click to expand...
I feel bound to ask...(ducks)....... Is there anyway of estimating what it would cost to have a 'professional' programmer with the required knowledge, equipment, back-up etc. etc. to produce said engine?
Click to expand...
I'll tell you once you tell me how long the imaginary piece of string is in my pocket... Its rather an open-ended question

At a *guess* I'd say at least 100 hours for a very basic engine and given that its a specialist arena of expertise (more so than "simple" opengl) again at a guess you'd be paying in the order of £80+ per hour (at least)

Or you could wait for the community to put together something, but that would depend on not just programmers but also people with a wide range of skills all contributing their time and skills.
 
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chris_c said:
Nation.A.List said:
chris_c said:
....<SNIP> what you're looking for is an omap engine specifically sgx omaps....
Click to expand...
I feel bound to ask...(ducks)....... Is there anyway of estimating what it would cost to have a 'professional' programmer with the required knowledge, equipment, back-up etc. etc. to produce said engine?
Click to expand...
I'll tell you once you tell me how long the imaginary piece of string is in my pocket...
Click to expand...


6.
 
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Bosbeetle said:
chris_c said:
Nation.A.List said:
chris_c said:
....<SNIP> what you're looking for is an omap engine specifically sgx omaps....
Click to expand...
I feel bound to ask...(ducks)....... Is there anyway of estimating what it would cost to have a 'professional' programmer with the required knowledge, equipment, back-up etc. etc. to produce said engine?
Click to expand...
I'll tell you once you tell me how long the imaginary piece of string is in my pocket...
Click to expand...


6.
Click to expand...
42.
 
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chris_c said:
what you're looking for is an omap engine specifically sgx omaps....
Click to expand...
Exactly! :) A High Performance 2D/3D OMAP SGX Engine with instant NEON and DSP Support, hardware accelerated features through every circuit of the Chip and easy to use.
So where can I download it? :D

Seriously. I mean, Texas Instruments can't make a Chip without also delivering suiting and optimized drivers n' stuff.
If they don't can make usage of the Hardware with the matching software, who else should do it?
I've never heard that users had to make Drivers for Intel or AMD Chips or the NVidia or ATI Graphics Cards. OK, there are Open Source Drivers but mainly the manufactueres take care of thiss stuff.
So why not in the ARM World? We could save tons of time if the Pandora wohld already have full working Drivers for every Hardware aspect of the Chipset. But somehow we have to fiddle it out all for ourselfs or get unusable buggy drivers from the Manufacturers.
Unfair.
 
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an engine and a hardware driver are completely different things, Imagination Technologies already provide drivers *and* a graphics library anything higher up is no way their responsibility, just like its not AMD or NVidia's responsibility

AFAIK the only driver with problems is the wifi and currently as i understand it craigx is standing over them while they fix it (albeit at the threat of no more wifi module sales...)

Even exotic hardware like the dsp has drivers and firmware available for it, its just no one with the relevant experience has made use of it at a higher level - again not something that is the responsibility of a hardware manufacturer.

The pandora has been out for only a short amount of time and not all 900 are coding guru's

Given everything the quality and breath of the software available for the pandora *already* is great! and its only going to get better.


and yes the string is exactly 42 long
 
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