Interest In Commercial Games Or Free Only?

[Julius]

I ticked the £10 box although I have donated more to open source projects than I have ever paid for shareware apps.

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Same here
But afterall it really depends on the quality of the commercial game and what genre it is in.

I wouldn't pay for a mariokart clone for example, as I prefer to play the original. But if it is something new and well done (and I can try a demo of it) I would probably be willing to pay around 10€ for it.

 

[digitaljez]

Often when I donate I will send the person a present instead, thats why I like people who have amazon wish lists, then you can buy them a DVD or CD or similar, I much prefer doing that.

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Cool. Send me a GP2X and point me to your list.

 

[digitaljez]

I would buy a game but only if it it is not DRMed to one single unit. If it is than no thanks. There are too many ways that a DRMed game will stop working like if the unit it is locked to breaks etc.

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How often do you break your consoles / storage media ? What are the other 'too many ways" ?

With any other commodity if you break it, and you still want it, you have to replace it.

 

[digitaljez]

Bring back the days of the bedroom coder!!

So, in short, yes, if it's something I want, I'm happy paying up to £10 (round about $17). Anything over that would be f*cking ludicrous you sell-out greedy nerdy tw*ats.

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I have no idea how much a bedroom coder could afford to sell a game for. I take it you have analysed the market to be able to make this statement. Please share your findings.

The figures I would like to see are : The time allowed for development, the projected expected sales, the size of the market , the standard/cost of living you allowed for the dev and any other relevant data you used. Did you factor in the cost of borrowing money to cover the development period when the dev will not be earning anything ?

 

[Tobriand]

How about this as an idea for DRMage...

A game isn't encrypted to a GP2x to start with... instead its encrypted to a given card. When you put the card in a GP2x, it checks for a file on the NAND memory, or possibly some data within a file. If not, it adds it to the encrypted games file on the unit itself, along with the game itself's unique ID, at least if you choose the "encrypt to this unit" option in the menu.

From that point on, whatever card that specific copy of the fgame is on, it'll run on that unit.

At the same time as it first adds itself to a given GP2x, it reduces the counter within a file on the SD card, thus limiting the number of units it can be encrypted to.

If you want to sell it, you can unencrypt the game for a given GP2x (which in turn increases the counter).

If your GP2x breaks, then you should still have a couple of encryptions left, and even if not, it'll still run (with just the card encryption) from the SD it was originally encrypted for.

'Course if you backed up the original SD card, then you'd always have 5 or however many encryptions, but it'd still need to be done from the original card, which at least makes it awkward for distribution over the internet.

Does that sound like a remotely reasonable system? Does involve more trust than most companies would like, but hey... that's an open system for you.

Personally, though, I'd be fine with the standard GP32 way of doing things IF the games weren't too pricey (i.e. never more than a tenner)

 

[digitaljez]

nerdy tw*ats.

I've asked a few programmers and they've never gave a decent answer, if you're still reading, does having to think logically all the time change who you are? or do you kind of change into programmer mode when you close the door. I mean programming is a creative process but there's nothing emotional there, can you still write poetry afterwards?

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Since you seem to have a preconceived notion that all dev's are nerdy tw*ats I doubt you will ever get a 'decent answer'. If a 'decent answer' is one that will confirm this belief and the answers you are getting seem to indicate they are normal people I doubt you will ever be satisfied.

The question is pretty dumb anyhow. It will depend on the individual. Programmers are individuals not some race of clones. At the end of the day they will go home and be a husband, wife, lover, son whatever...

If you are speaking to an employee who just codes a part of a project, just like the guy from the meat packing factory and every other employee, they will go home and get on with there domestic life.

If you are talking to an indie dev, a part of the project will be extremely logical. This does not exclude emotions. They will experience the frustration of bug fixing, the exhilaration of achieving something cool, the satisfaction of completing the work, pride in the result etc...

An indie may also switch hats to create the music and graphics - are these less creative/emotive than poetry ? An indie may be more inclined to take their work home, but this is because it is 'their baby'. For the duration of the project they will be more likely to 'live it'. In this sense their work is a more rounded creative/emotional experience than 99% of other jobs.

 

[digitaljez]

How about this as an idea for DRMage...

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Nice constructive approach but you will still have to contend with this kind of objection....

But what happens when I drop the original card in a tub of acid....

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:lol:

 

[declaration]

I would be very reluctant to buy DRMd games because I've been stung before. When my GP32 broke, it meant I had to repay for software I had already bought.

There are other ways to prevent piracy. Community resistance mainly, but also through serial numbers etc. The DRM harms the customer and therefore will put people like myself and DaveC off.

With any other commodity if you break it, and you still want it, you have to replace it.

If my PS2 breaks I dont have to replace all my games. If my hard drive fails, I dont have to rebuy all the software I have installed.
Unit encryption is a bad system.

 

[Guyfawkes]

I wouldnt mind paying or charging $10 for a game if it was worth it. The GP32 scene has several games which I wouldnt mind paying for. I think the problem with the GP32 scene was that just about everything was free so charging money for something seems strange, but there are many people who dont mind donating to developers, but as we all know if you are relying on income from your software this is not ideal.

If GP2X can get quality commercial software from the start this would help alot and I think more people would be happy to pay $10 or maybe even higher for the software.

I understand about the DRM system from being involved in the Zodiac scene. There were some issues when customers returned their Zodiacs when they were broke etc. Tapwave did transfer the software DRM to the new Zodiacs but once Tapwave closed down there was no way to get a copy if you had deleted it etc. This could also be a problem for the GP2X under the same circumstances.

 

[Tobriand]

That's kinda why I was suggesting something that would allow a limited ammount of re-encryption by the end user; hopefully sufficient enough that if things go wrong for GPH, the game will continue to work unless you go through a ridiculous number of units.

Alternatively, you could encrypt a game to an individual user... by which I mean you (the user) would supply about 40 questions about yourself, each multiple choice, along with the answers, and some dummy answers. Then, roughly every 5 times the program ran, it'd display the user data (This program is for the use of X only), and ask you 1 or 2 questions from the batch... if you got it wrong, though, being multiple choice, you'd need to get 10 right (in a row), and if still went bizarre, the software would do the mobile phone thing of locking itself until you'd got an unlock code from the developers.

Could be a little harsh; I don't know. Maybe have it display a message like "please give this GP2x back to the original user to answer the questions" before locking it, but the idea is somewhat sound... no different really than a mobile phone sim card though.

The result of this is that the game could run on any GP2x or SD card, but only be run by one person, unless they supplied the database of answers (similar to, for those of you who remember, copy protection systems that required you to tell the program what word was on page 7 line 6 of the manual).

The challenge would be to make the database sufficiently large without making it too much of an effort to buy something. But if a standard were developed for the db format such that it could be used with any piece of software, then it might not be too much to expect a buyer to go through once and never again.

Even displaying user data on launch might be a bit of an incentive not to share... certainly it works for beta testers - you instantly know who shared their beta, and so you can vow never to supply one again to that person.

Perhaps that sort of thing would work... you could have a DNR (do not run) list of GP2x IDs, such that if your piece of software gets passed on, no piece of commercial software will work on your GP2x again (i.e. rather than checking and only running if it is a given ID, it checks and if it finds your ID among the list that it won't run on, it crashes).

It'd be a bit harsh to those who bought second hand GP2xes from anuses who had managed to get their units ONTO the DNR list, but that's life... perhaps it could be taken off (or at least put on parole) for a suitable fine.

Just a couple of other ideas, anyway

 

[Aimless_E]

Depending on the game I would be willing to pay what ever the dev or devs asked for it. But I would have to know exactly how much goes back to the dev. None of this 8% crap that some record labels try to pull. Not that I think any publisher for the gp2x would pull something like that. As far as free software is concerned I still think it would be benifical for both the developer and the community to set up some kind of quarterly CD-mag with all the best of the homebrew/freeware scene. Then a certain percentage of the profits from the mag would go back to the developers.

Granted you would need to have other stuff on the CD as well: Movie clips, Shareware, music(video/audio). It would be a huge undertaking but I still think it would be worth it.

 

[digitaljez]

Community resistance.

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I assume this is meant to mean devs entrust their livelihood to the good natured consumer. If that was the case devs could just release games as donationware and know they would be O.K. Games would be dirt cheap, devs could survive and provide more games, gamers would be happy with a cheap and plentiful supply of new, innovative entertainment. How lovely.

I think it is fair to say that people support donationware in theory but human nature tends to negate the good intentions.

Look to other threads on this forum to see how this just does not work in reality.

The reason we have DRM is because devs need a way to protect the investment of time they put into devving so they can make a living. There are other systems but they do not give the same level of protection - which is why DRM gets such a negative response from some members.

If my PS2 breaks I dont have to replace all my games. If my hard drive fails, I dont have to rebuy all the software I have installed.

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How often does this happen ? It doesn't make sense to base an entire system on the likelihood of something that is so rare. Do you suppose this is not reflected in the initial cost of current sotware ?

Companies have to keep records of their transactions. If a DRM encrypted file is downloaded it would not be hard to have a field that records the unique ID in the record (probably already implemented). This could then be used to transfer ID's between hardware.

The dev would be protected as the user would have to enter the original ID and the new ID. The original ID would then be unusable. It would be obvious if one person was abusing the system by continually 'transferring' the license (and could be guarded against.)

The buyer would be secure in the knowlege that, should their device die, they can transfer the software to a new unit and that the cost of the game is not inflated to offset the losses to thieves.

For all I know GPH may already have implemented this.

 

[deadlychicken22]

I would be willing to pay for a couple games, but i would't pay for them unless they were a good step above the free homebrew. And I don't like paying for emulators, but if thats what ends up happening, i'm sure I will as long as its reasonably priced. But I really don't think people should sell emulators, it seems to get them in trouble.

I just hope that the majority of the games and emulators for the gp2x are free, like the gp32.

 

[OrR]

I like games .

I am usually willing to pay up to $15-20 for a good game.

I would definitely shell out the dough if someone was to come up with a really good 3D engine and start producing or licensing it for developers, then we would see some really cool games.

Anybody think we can use the second processor purely for 3d?

I bought a $13 port of Need for Speed porsche unleashed for my brothers FLU GBA SP. It actually has 3d, not very good 3d, but considering the platform not bad.

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http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=289111
GP2X should be able to do some great 2D.

About DRM: Community resistance would sure be the best option for customers. In the end some developers will rely on the community and loose a few sales on warez, others will use device locking and loose a few sales on DaveC and others. We need to suppress piracy as much as possible and that includes banning all community members who break the rules as well as reporting people to the authorities and killing GP2X warez site that might pop up. Maybe we need a GP2X kill squad... B) Then we might get around the need for device locking.

 

[digitaljez]

I just hope that the majority of the games and emulators for the gp2x are free, like the gp32.

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I don't and for the following reason :

Lately the GP32 scene seems to have seen a number of advances. Emulators in particular seem to be reaching/have reached near perfect playability levels. More high quality home brew has shown up. It seems to be peaking.

Too bad it is five years down the line and it is about to be superceded.

If the devs had been able to make a living from the scene instead of fitting it in around their work, how much sooner would these levels have been reached ? How much more motivated would they have been.

If the majority of apps are available for free on the GP2X there will be less motivation to support devs. We will have the same situation as with the GP32. A handheld that was never used to its full potential.

There is no reason to suppose the GP2X will have as long as five years, GPH have already mentioned a successor. So the scene needs people who can get the most out of it in the few years it will have - the sooner the better. If they can make a living from it, it will happen. If not it will take longer, if ever, to get there.

Also, having commercial software will inevitably raise standards and this will be reflected in the 'brew.

Do you want to wait months for a beta release of an emu for the sake of a few bucks ?
Or do want to use your GP2X as soon as possible.

Bring on the payware.

 

[Hanz™]

Bring on the payware.

Maybe I will leave.

 

[gfxpulse]

If the devs had been able to make a living from the scene instead of fitting it in around their work, how much sooner would these levels have been reached ? How much more motivated would they have been.

Well, I agree with this to a certain extent, but I think even with a rather sucessful commercial offering, a developer will not be able to make a living off of these sales at prices that have been discussed in this thread. There are, what, 3000 gp2x units on preorder, with another couple thousand coming in the next few months? And what percentage of users are going to buy games at all, let alone purchase a certain type of game (interests vary). Its certainly not enough possible customers to 'quit your day job' (or, at least not enough that you know you could rely on future revinues)

My point is, it will probably account for much less than their current day job (and many games arnt one developer offerings).

But, if the money is coming in, they will be much more likely to work on it, this much is true.

I would also quote the troll earlier who posted that all programmers charging over $10/copy are greedy whatevers, but he was (hopefully) not serious and just trying to get a rise out of people.

Anyway, I dont think it will be easy for any homebrewers to make a living off of their games alone (unless you are all much faster programmers than myself).

 

[grahf]

I am all for the resurgence of shareware for comercial made-from-scratch software.

Emulators on the other hand.. i dont think its right to charge for them, except in the instances that licences are aquired from the original equipment manufactures, as in the case with Magic Engine.

 

[OrR]

Bring on the payware.

Maybe I will leave.

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If you want to... :blink:

 

[Digital Awakening]

I cosed the option "Paying flat rates isn't for me but I will donate" because at the moment I read that I didn't realise what you ment by that. I'm open for buying commercial games and I also want to make some. And I have donated in the past. Thing is that depending on the quality of the game I could spend anything from $5 to $20 for it. $25 is pushing it but could be possible if the game really deserves it. For $15+ it really has to have some deapth or really quality entertainment.

Problem with most games is that they fit into at least one of these categories:

1. It's not fun enough. There are a lot of games that are fun for 5-15 min but I wouldn't pay for them. Lifespan is very important for a game and also how high the entertainment value is for that duration.

2. Bad quality. If I'm to pay for something I want to feel like the creator put in extra work just to make the game good. I don't want to pay someone who didn't make the game for me.

3. Too expensive. I don't have a job so I don't throw money on every game I see. There's competition out there and only so much money and time to spend on games. I can easily get old PC games for $10-$20 and some are really good. Even newer games are competition even if they cost 2-3 times as much, if the played value is that much more.