Idea to break the impasse

[Timstertoo]

Crazy idea, but might be worth toying with and see if something good comes out of it.


What if we, the original pre orders, lend ED the money to send us our unit and he pays us back when he makes the sales?


ED would be able to send us an unit immediately and once the queue is cleared they have more freedom to fiddle with the price to find a sweetspot.


I'd even agree to get the money back minus the price difference between what I paid originally and the new, higher, GC production cost.


The interest would consist of getting a 1GhZ unit, so ED won't have to pay more then the amount sent however long it takes him.


Maybe some people would accept store credit as repayment. Of course ED can't give the store credit right away as he would be funding the Pandoras himself then but he could say send the money now, get your Pandora and have the same amount of store credit in January 2014


Discuss!

 

[Pickle]

Expecting ED to take more debt on to send out pandoras is a bad idea.

If you have the money just buy the upgrade.

OR ED could add something like an SD card as an perk to upgrade to make upgraders feel better about paying the extra.

 

[EssoAir]

why are people so against upgrading to 1ghz units?

 

[klapse]

This seems functionally equivalent to cancelling your preorder and buying a new unit. The only difference is your plan would get you a new unit at cost.


Seems like a fair idea to me. Good luck.

 

[Grench]

So, since CraigIX owes you a debt for the Pandora you paid for, you want ED to sell you one at production cost AND either ED or CraigIX to refund you the production cost if/when they have funds available.

I could see that working.

Using big round numbers to make math easy.  Actual numbers would vary.

Pretend Timstertoo paid $700 on pre-order to CraigIX for a 1Ghz unit.

Pretend that the production and shipping costs for a 1Ghz unit are $400.

The scenario:

Timsertoo pays ED $400.

ED sends Timsertoo a 1Ghz Pandora.

Craig's debt for this order splits.  He now owes ED $300 and Timsertoo $400.

Timsertoo then agrees to move to the back of the line or take store credit (At Craig's store) for the $400 that CraigIX still owes him.

ED Continues to sell Pandoras - and tacks the $300 onto the top of  Craig's debt queue to clear.  This one is a bit mushy as ED has said he sells Pandoras to CraigIX at production costs-  so it may just wash out from ED's perspective.

I could see that working - the main drawback is that it would require smooth communication between ED and CraigIX to make it happen.

 

[quadcricket]

The best way I see something like this working is if we found a single person willing to give the loan. 

If Ed was willing to take on more debt of course (as stated before). 

1) A number of the amount of cash needed to build/send the remaining preorders is summed. 

2) Someone legally loans ED the cash at zero interest (or very very low).

3) All the preorders are rapidly taken care of. 

4) A percentage of the future profits are given to the loaner to repay the debt. 

I think, however, that ED already did this as we know he got a new loan to even continue the project at all. 

Maybe Link would be interested taking the risk?

 

[Timstertoo]

So, since CraigIX owes you a debt for the Pandora you paid for, you want ED to sell you one at production cost AND either ED or CraigIX to refund you the production cost if/when they have funds available.


I could see that working.


Using big round numbers to make math easy.  Actual numbers would vary.


Pretend Timstertoo paid $700 on pre-order to CraigIX for a 1Ghz unit.


Pretend that the production and shipping costs for a 1Ghz unit are $400.


The scenario:


Timsertoo pays ED $400.


ED sends Timsertoo a 1Ghz Pandora.


Craig's debt for this order splits.  He now owes ED $300 and Timsertoo $400.


Timsertoo then agrees to move to the back of the line or take store credit (At Craig's store) for the $400 that CraigIX still owes him.


ED Continues to sell Pandoras - and tacks the $300 onto the top of  Craig's debt queue to clear.  This one is a bit mushy as ED has said he sells Pandoras to CraigIX at production costs-  so it may just wash out from ED's perspective.


I could see that working - the main drawback is


that it would require smooth communication between ED and CraigIX to make it happen.

I'm not a 1GhZ pre order, I'm an original pre order.

My idea came from ED' s post stating that he would also service Craig's queue if the need arises and the fact that the pre orders are holding back OPT in regards to promotions, price drops etc.


I would fully understand, respect and appreciate if ED doesn't think this is a good idea. It was just a thought to break trough the current impasse and get things rolling again.


I wouldn't accept store credit from Craig, if I'd go for a store credit option it would be only for ED's shop.


As for the answers that I should upgrade. I don't want to upgrade, I want what I ordered for the price I ordered. To me a Pandora is not worth 850 so I don't see why I should pay that even if I have the money. I'd rather us it for something I do feel is worth spending it on. Out of appreciaton for ED's hard work I'm willing to pay the difference between what I originally paid and the current cost. And in return I think it' s only fair if the original pre orders get a 1GhZ unit for that. It would cost him nothing and everyone would be happy.

 

[Link]

Maybe Link would be interested taking the risk?

I'm already invested into Open Pandora GmbH to move production to Germany. 

 

[Grench]

So, since CraigIX owes you a debt for the Pandora you paid for, you want ED to sell you one at production cost AND either ED or CraigIX to refund you the production cost if/when they have funds available.


I could see that working.


Using big round numbers to make math easy.  Actual numbers would vary.


Pretend Timstertoo paid $700 on pre-order to CraigIX for a 1Ghz unit.


Pretend that the production and shipping costs for a 1Ghz unit are $400.


The scenario:


Timsertoo pays ED $400.


ED sends Timsertoo a 1Ghz Pandora.


Craig's debt for this order splits.  He now owes ED $300 and Timsertoo $400.


Timsertoo then agrees to move to the back of the line or take store credit (At Craig's store) for the $400 that CraigIX still owes him.


ED Continues to sell Pandoras - and tacks the $300 onto the top of  Craig's debt queue to clear.  This one is a bit mushy as ED has said he sells Pandoras to CraigIX at production costs-  so it may just wash out from ED's perspective.


I could see that working - the main drawback is


that it would require smooth communication between ED and CraigIX to make it happen.

I'm not a 1GhZ pre order, I'm an original pre order.

My idea came from ED' s post stating that he would also service Craig's queue if the need arises and the fact that the pre orders are holding back OPT in regards to promotions, price drops etc.


I would fully understand, respect and appreciate if ED doesn't think this is a good idea. It was just a thought to break trough the current impasse and get things rolling again.


I wouldn't accept store credit from Craig, if I'd go for a store credit option it would be only for ED's shop.


As for the answers that I should upgrade. I don't want to upgrade, I want what I ordered for the price I ordered. To me a Pandora is not worth 850 so I don't see why I should pay that even if I have the money. I'd rather us it for something I do feel is worth spending it on. Out of appreciaton for ED's hard work I'm willing to pay the difference between what I originally paid and the current cost. And in return I think it' s only fair if the original pre orders get a 1GhZ unit for that. It would cost him nothing and everyone would be happy.

I think you may be under the mistaken impression that ED owes you anything.  You're not likely to get ED to give you money for the debt CraigIX's store owes you.  They are two different companies.

In your version of the world you paid @$300 for a $500 computer and think you should simply be given a $700 computer if you pay the $200 difference on the 'normal' unit - which has greatly improved in capability since your order?

I understand you feeling that someone owes you something - but if your order is with CraigIX's shop, then it isn't ED's shop that owes it to you.  The cross-upgrade option is there to help people cut their losses and get out of Craig's queue and a Pandora in hand.  It is there because of ED's charitable nature.  What you're proposing is that ED pays you 140% of the value of CraigIX's debt to you - which is like asking Target to honor a Circuit City (defunct) gift card.

It isn't any fun to be in the pre-order wait list.  We all get that.  When crafting ways out though, don't expect a 3rd party to acquire debt on yours or CraigIX's or even ED's behalf in order to clear your order.  The debt owed you is from the store you ordered from.

 

[Timstertoo]

So, since CraigIX owes you a debt for the Pandora you paid for, you want ED to sell you one at production cost AND either ED or CraigIX to refund you the production cost if/when they have funds available.


I could see that working.


Using big round numbers to make math easy.  Actual numbers would vary.


Pretend Timstertoo paid $700 on pre-order to CraigIX for a 1Ghz unit.


Pretend that the production and shipping costs for a 1Ghz unit are $400.


The scenario:


Timsertoo pays ED $400.


ED sends Timsertoo a 1Ghz Pandora.


Craig's debt for this order splits.  He now owes ED $300 and Timsertoo $400.


Timsertoo then agrees to move to the back of the line or take store credit (At Craig's store) for the $400 that CraigIX still owes him.


ED Continues to sell Pandoras - and tacks the $300 onto the top of  Craig's debt queue to clear.  This one is a bit mushy as ED has said he sells Pandoras to CraigIX at production costs-  so it may just wash out from ED's perspective.


I could see that working - the main drawback is


that it would require smooth communication between ED and CraigIX to make it happen.

I'm not a 1GhZ pre order, I'm an original pre order.

My idea came from ED' s post stating that he would also service Craig's queue if the need arises and the fact that the pre orders are holding back OPT in regards to promotions, price drops etc.


I would fully understand, respect and appreciate if ED doesn't think this is a good idea. It was just a thought to break trough the current impasse and get things rolling again.


I wouldn't accept store credit from Craig, if I'd go for a store credit option it would be only for ED's shop.


As for the answers that I should upgrade. I don't want to upgrade, I want what I ordered for the price I ordered. To me a Pandora is not worth 850 so I don't see why I should pay that even if I have the money. I'd rather us it for something I do feel is worth spending it on. Out of appreciaton for ED's hard work I'm willing to pay the difference between what I originally paid and the current cost. And in return I think it' s only fair if the original pre orders get a 1GhZ unit for that. It would cost him nothing and everyone would be happy.

I think you may be under the mistaken impression that ED owes you anything.  You're not likely to get ED to give you money for the debt CraigIX's store owes you.  They are two different companies.

In your version of the world you paid @$300 for a $500 computer and think you should simply be given a $700 computer if you pay the $200 difference on the 'normal' unit - which has greatly improved in capability since your order?

I understand you feeling that someone owes you something - but if your order is with CraigIX's shop, then it isn't ED's shop that owes it to you.  The cross-upgrade option is there to help people cut their losses and get out of Craig's queue and a Pandora in hand.  It is there because of ED's charitable nature.  What you're proposing is that ED pays you 140% of the value of CraigIX's debt to you - which is like asking Target to honor a Circuit City (defunct) gift card.

It isn't any fun to be in the pre-order wait list.  We all get that.  When crafting ways out though, don't expect a 3rd party to acquire debt on yours or CraigIX's or even ED's behalf in order to clear your order.  The debt owed you is from the store you ordered from.

I don't see anywhere in my post, which you quoted, that ED owes me anything. I think my sentence "I would fully understand, respect and appreciate if ED doesn't think this is a good idea. It was just a thought to break trough the current impasse and get things rolling again." doesn't really sound like me demanding anything in my opinion. 

As I said in my post, which you quoted, based on the premise that ED is going to service Craig's queue with sales, as he has said himself, why is it not a good idea to pay that money now and get it back once ED makes said sale? 

If ED wants to send me a rebirth edition instead I'll still send him the production cost money, I'd just want it all back once he makes the sales he needed to send me the unit once it's the turn of my spot in the queue. It would be a zero sum game for him, the only difference would be that the pre orders would have their units much much sooner and he would have the freedom to do with the price whatever he thinks gives him the most sales instead of having to fear more refunds.

It was just an idea, nothing more, nothing less. You are reading too much in this. 

 

[EvilDragon]

The idea is basically good - however, there is the debts issue Grench mentioned.


Yes, I want to help all of Craigs customers as good as possible and provide units from the sale profits. However, I can only do this whenever that profit is there, otherwise I'll ruin my own company.


If I would ship every unit right away for the upgrade price and give out a voucher from my store, I would take over the debts as well.


If I won't make enough profits, it'll ruin my company as well.


I can offer to provide Craigs customers the crossupgrades, as I'm already doing. I could even offer to pay the crossupgrade price back (even as voucher for my shop) whenever enough profit has been made to do so.


But I cannot guarantee that this profit will ever happen or that anyone would ever get that upgrade money back.

 

[Kumaki]

The best way I see something like this working is if we found a single person willing to give the loan. 

If Ed was willing to take on more debt of course (as stated before). 

1) A number of the amount of cash needed to build/send the remaining preorders is summed. 

2) Someone legally loans ED the cash at zero interest (or very very low).

3) All the preorders are rapidly taken care of. 

4) A percentage of the future profits are given to the loaner to repay the debt. 

I think, however, that ED already did this as we know he got a new loan to even continue the project at all. 

Maybe Link would be interested taking the risk?

I can't see any outsider willing to loan money at zero or very near zero interest.

So it would have to be an insider.

I sure as heck wouldn't loan anyone but a family member money at zero interest.

 

[Timstertoo]

The idea is basically good - however, there is the debts issue Grench mentioned.


Yes, I want to help all of Craigs customers as good as possible and provide units from the sale profits. However, I can only do this whenever that profit is there, otherwise I'll ruin my own company.


If I would ship every unit right away for the upgrade price and give out a voucher from my store, I would take over the debts as well.


If I won't make enough profits, it'll ruin my company as well.


I can offer to provide Craigs customers the crossupgrades, as I'm already doing. I could even offer to pay the crossupgrade price back (even as voucher for my shop) whenever enough profit has been made to do so.


But I cannot guarantee that this profit will ever happen or that anyone would ever get that upgrade money back.

I fully understand that. The voucher idea (not before 2014 was just an idea in an idea ) was based on you making some profit on it as the money would be spent in your store again. It would be nice if there is some kickback for you apart from eternal gratitude and free beer in Amsterdam. (the free beer you already earned by saying you'd take care of Craig's customers so whenever you plan on visiting Amsterdam let me know)

As far as I'm concerned sending the money to you is a much safer bet then sending the money to Craig at the moment. A mail from you stating that you'd pay me back the money if you make the sale, or get the money from Craig, would be enough for me. 

Of course this is something I see as a solution for a lot of pre orders and you, so if I'm (almost) the only one willing to do that it's too much hassle. You can't get into different private arrangements with every single pre orderer here. There should be at least x amount of people getting on this.

Also this would only work if you have a full list of Craig's pre orders.

 

[hedwards]

why are people so against upgrading to 1ghz units?

Many people don't have the money to upgrade. Others don't want to throw good money after bad. Others are still upset in general about the lack of information. Personally, I upgraded and my 1ghz unit is about to be shipped to me by my parents.

But, I think there are probably other reasons. The 1ghz preorder queue probably didn't help the image. And don't forget about the trolls making allegations of fraud.

 

[hedwards]

The idea is basically good - however, there is the debts issue Grench mentioned.


Yes, I want to help all of Craigs customers as good as possible and provide units from the sale profits. However, I can only do this whenever that profit is there, otherwise I'll ruin my own company.


If I would ship every unit right away for the upgrade price and give out a voucher from my store, I would take over the debts as well.


If I won't make enough profits, it'll ruin my company as well.


I can offer to provide Craigs customers the crossupgrades, as I'm already doing. I could even offer to pay the crossupgrade price back (even as voucher for my shop) whenever enough profit has been made to do so.


But I cannot guarantee that this profit will ever happen or that anyone would ever get that upgrade money back.

I think that if there's a P2 ever, that the team has to be in the same company. Having multiple companies dealing with this is confusing at best.

 

[Neelix]

The idea is basically good - however, there is the debts issue Grench mentioned.


Yes, I want to help all of Craigs customers as good as possible and provide units from the sale profits. However, I can only do this whenever that profit is there, otherwise I'll ruin my own company.


If I would ship every unit right away for the upgrade price and give out a voucher from my store, I would take over the debts as well.


If I won't make enough profits, it'll ruin my company as well.


I can offer to provide Craigs customers the crossupgrades, as I'm already doing. I could even offer to pay the crossupgrade price back (even as voucher for my shop) whenever enough profit has been made to do so.


But I cannot guarantee that this profit will ever happen or that anyone would ever get that upgrade money back.

I think that if there's a P2 ever, that the team has to be in the same company. Having multiple companies dealing with this is confusing at best.

As long as they don't take pre-orders having multiple distribution companies shouldn't be an issue.  

That being said, part of what has caused so much confusion here is that there have been two very similarly named companies involved.

To make things clear it would help if each shop should be distinctly named from the manufacturing business. (e.g. Open Pandora GMBH makes the pandora, but as far as the customer is concerned they are buying from the DragonBox Shop, not from OPG) 

- Neelix

 

[ShleeDragon]

The idea is basically good - however, there is the debts issue Grench mentioned.


Yes, I want to help all of Craigs customers as good as possible and provide units from the sale profits. However, I can only do this whenever that profit is there, otherwise I'll ruin my own company.


If I would ship every unit right away for the upgrade price and give out a voucher from my store, I would take over the debts as well.


If I won't make enough profits, it'll ruin my company as well.


I can offer to provide Craigs customers the crossupgrades, as I'm already doing. I could even offer to pay the crossupgrade price back (even as voucher for my shop) whenever enough profit has been made to do so.


But I cannot guarantee that this profit will ever happen or that anyone would ever get that upgrade money back.

I think that if there's a P2 ever, that the team has to be in the same company. Having multiple companies dealing with this is confusing at best.

I think if there is ever a P2.... I'm buying from ED. That said,


I'm pretty damn sure Craig is going to kickstart the Pandora 2.. al la Batch Pre-Orders start again


also: I said this in another topic but this is apparently how most plans work out.

That's not a horrible idea.. in theory... but makes a whole bunch of additional work for ED..

Craig would never agree because he needs to agree to handing over his pre-order information.

 

[EvilDragon]

I think that if there's a P2 ever, that the team has to be in the same company. Having multiple companies dealing with this is confusing at best.

That's what Fatih and me wanted when we started with the Pandora 1...

 

[EvilDragon]

 I think if there is ever a P2.... I'm buying from ED. That said,


I'm pretty damn sure Craig is going to kickstart the Pandora 2.. al la Batch Pre-Orders start again

Neither preorders nor Kickstarter is a bad thing, I might do it as well.


However, not before I have a 100% finished working unit, incl. case.


I'd do the production with GC, so I would be sure it would work.


With the Pandora 1, all we had was an early revision of the PCB... not even a case. And I believed Craig back then when he promised me that the units will be finished just before christmas (I didn't have more information than anyone of you here back then).


If I would've known the status, I wouldn't have taken preorders... well, lesson learnt. And now I know a lot about designing and production, so I would know when to take preorders and actually be able to deliver.

 

[Trezker]

New years resolution suggestion: Clear all preorders in 2013!