iCP2: They're throwing in the towel.

[Franko]

Look...that's your own thing. Believe in the Tooth Craigy if you want to.

The mirror is smooth, but it reflects the truth......see what you don't want to see.

Alright - I'm getting WAAAAAY off-topic here. Bottomline is that Craig is who he is.

 

[fikkie]

$15k is a petty sum for the electrical development alone. You would not be able to find a company willing to do the board development for you for so little. So I think even if he did zero work on the firmware he was still under-compensated

These projects have never been about making money for me, as I had hoped might someday happen.  At least twice Craig has asked me if I wanted to be paid for profits made on iCP or roll it back into production so we can make more and I always told him to use it to build more to expand the customer base and hopefully make the product into something popular (my hope anyway).  I suppose looking back I'm a fool for not taking the money and instead walking away with nothing but it is what it is.

Another thing to note is that money that is sent to me gets used to buy all the prototype parts, PCBs, cables, soldering and test equipment, shipping fees and anything else related to development.  At the end of the day, if there is anything left, I go buy myself a Slurpee or something.   I have a big box completely filled with receipts for the tens of thousands of dollars I have spent over the years with these projects.  Money in was always close to money out and I focused on not being out of pocket while also doing all the work of designing this stuff.

The code was fairly complete other than a few little things, mainly with the nubs.  I had the original iCP2 board (the one Craig shows in all his videos) working with full iCP1 capability (minus nubs) and could play games with it.  I had a really cool control system for the RGB LEDs on the backlight version of the iCP2 board.  It was all interrupt driven with PWM control of the lights so the user would set a few variables in their code and the background ISRs would handle fading the lights in and out and doing whatever special modes were enabled.  The keyboard scanning matrix was working which was the main difference between the old iCP and the iCP2.  I had all the HID tables mapped to keys in a rudimentary setup that included holding down FN, SHIFT, etc.  It was based on the layout chosen by users of this forum in a poll going way back.

The bootloader was working and flashing the board was a much easier process of plugging in a USB cable and holding down the same button combos as iCP but without the complicated Bluetooth link that so many people had trouble with.

Oh, I also had some test HID profiles added to the BT modules to support reports that looked like the PS3, Wii and XBOX.  That took a fair bit of back and forth with the BT module manufacturer and I don't know if they would have worked properly.  I just wanted them in so developers could play around and see if we could mimic those controllers on apps that had native support for those controllers.

I was able to add the IR receiver and transmitter circuitry to the design before production as well.  The parts weren't getting populated but the pads were there as requested.  I also added a two pin header at the edge of the board for DAC output in order to mimic a game controller that used the headphone jack of any smart phone to transmit gaming controls.  I don't remember what that controller was called but I thought people could have fun with that one too.  It was an unofficial feature not documented or discussed until now, I think.

It was coming together nicely on my end and it was a little sad when it all started falling apart and apparent I was working hard for nothing.  Once that happened, I couldn't imagine spending more time on this when it was never going to be made so everything just stopped at that point.

Well, my guess is that he found out that the dome caps and the case production would be too expensive... no one except him knows anything, as he never let anyone know.

I have a serious question, as I understand it the hardware was nearly finished (except for having to get a new supplier for the nubs) so the problem was the case design/keymat.

How much money are we talking about if somebody would like to finish this project?

 

[FaeMinx]

FaeMinX --->


I've read your posts for almost a decade.....wake up!


How delusional can one be? Oh I don't know.....let me trust Craig yet another time...

I never said I trusted him. Like I said, I would be pleasantly surprised to get an icp1 out of this.


And wether he's an incompetent or a criminal makes no difference to the level of trust I have in him - which is none.


Personally, I'm of the opinion that Craig is more devious than foolish, but I'm sure he's both... but exactly to what degree I can't be certain - Not enough hard evidence is available... most of it is circumstantial.


=~. O =

 

[benoitb]

I asked for an iCP1. I already have one, at least it is a decent existing product. I hope I will get it soon and forget about that sad story.

Still, I'm happy we got a significant update for once.

 

[Exophase]

I have a serious question, as I understand it the hardware was nearly finished (except for having to get a new supplier for the nubs) so the problem was the case design/keymat.

How much money are we talking about if somebody would like to finish this project?

Designing the case, keymat, and holders would probably take a few thousand in contract work.. maybe it's the kind of thing some nice person would do for free..

Getting molds to mass produce these things via plastic injection could be tens of thousands. The production itself a few thousand. Changing the nubs is not going to be trivial, it'd need a PCB redesign and software update, MWeston would need to be paid for that (unless he'd be willing to do that for free). Then you lose whatever PCBs were already made and they all have to be remade, so that'd all cost probably tens of thousands. And if you used the nubs + controllers that ED sourced they're not exactly cheap, add something like $10-20 per unit to get them (more tens of thousands)

It'd be cool if somehow this money could be raised to make it happen, it sounds like you'd get more for your money than trying to sell parts and reimburse people. The problem is that there's no way the backers would (or should) put up extra money themselves because they don't trust it'd actually happen. The more realistic scenario would be that someone takes over production and uses their own money or loaned money to finish things, then asks for the backers to pay the difference after the units are actually made. But I still fear that a lot of them would refuse, you'd have to poll them about it beforehand or something, but even depending on those answers is risky. I guess someone would have to be willing to chance a decent amount of money on this.

I asked before if there was any serious way that someone could help get these things completed somehow but I basically got ridiculed for it :/

 

[Slow Rollin Low]

.

 

[_wb_]

Maybe at some point, ED can design a Pyra-without-screen with a cheap CPU board that can get away with something that is just powerful enough to make sure that you get a USB/bluetooth input device which also acts as a wireless SD-based storage device (over wifi, BT or wired over USB) and maybe a portable music player. It would not need the 3G module, the screen, the SoC and the RAM, which are probably the most expensive components of the Pyra. It would still be more expensive than the iCP2 of course, but it would also be better in all respects. And it would have a huge battery life (actually probably enough to call it an emergency phone charger).

 

[FaeMinx]

I would buy one... the PCP - Pyra Control Pad

=~. O =

 

[Ian J]

Kickstarter Just Opened the Floodgates to Even More Frauds and Scams

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2014/06/kickstarter-just-opened-the-floodgates-to-even-more-frauds-and-scams/

 

[SNESFAN]

Holy shit, that's is a terrible move on kickstarters part. I only did one indygogo and that was because of my extreme interest in the subject and even if not funded all the way could still be pulled off but at a slower rate (beta software) other than that one project I look at indygogo as a means for scammers to make money in things that were not as solid enough ideas to make it on kickstarter. Having the two options and actively avoiding the other, gave me confidense in my kickstarter backings. this is a horrible thing for the credibility of kick starter. If I can't trust a company has at least a working prototype or a solid plan to accomplish a goal I won't fund it regardless of how appealing it is. The icp2 is an extreme example of having all the right things and still flopping. That was a legitimate risk with unfortunate failure. If projects aren't even held to that standard that obviously had room for risk and failure then future projects will be an even bigger gamble. Not every investor or project manager is as thorough as kickstarter was demanding. And that was a good thing to weed out the weak ideas. This is allowing those doomed to fail good idea fairy projects to make for mass disappointment. But I bet it increases kickstarters short term revenue so screw it, right?

 

[ramboky]

...The icp2 is an extreme example of having all the right things and still flopping. That was a legitimate risk with unfortunate failure. 

Not at all. The statement on the ICP2 Kickstarter "Working prototypes finished, ready for mass production now" was an outright lie. There was no working prototype of the ICP2 when the project began and there was a lot of work required before it would be ready for production. 

 

[SNESFAN]

I give them credit for having the icp1 as a working product, having owned one, the natural evolution of one with a keyboard functioning wasn't too far off. Anyway, even if it was a lie, it was a convincing one. Where indygogo has no such requirement for the lie in the first place. I've seen projects that were just convincing cad drawings. And if I was uneducated would jump on such "good ideas" point being just because the icp2 made it under most peoples bullshit radar doesn't mean the system was flawed, just their idiot proof system found a abnormally good idiot.

 

[Exophase]

After deciding not to use KS anymore I was hoping they'd improve and I could change my mind. Instead they just got worse.. nice.

 

[Granitehead]

After deciding not to use KS anymore I was hoping they'd improve and I could change my mind. Instead they just got worse.. nice.

Why exactly wouldn't you use them? I mean, of course, for the average consumer the site is probably dangerous. But when you have the time and knowledge necessary to perform some research on the project and project creators before pledging (and I think this is the normal thing to do no matter what abuse preventing system are in place), then there isn't really a bigger risk when the crowd funding site doesn't perform some basic research too.

 

[WizardStan]

At least they aren't implementing flex funding. A lot of indigogo scams have at least paid off some thanks to flex funding.

 

[Granitehead]

At least they aren't implementing flex funding. A lot of indigogo scams have at least paid off some thanks to flex funding.

I don't understand what flex funding is supposed to be anyway. It's exactly the same as just setting up your own website and asking for preorders/donations on it (by any simple payment means, the purpose of those crowd sourcing websites as I understand them is just to facilitate collecting payment only if you reach your goal), what the hell do you need a specialized crowd funding website for in that case?

 

[Exophase]

Why exactly wouldn't you use them? I mean, of course, for the average consumer the site is probably dangerous. But when you have the time and knowledge necessary to perform some research on the project and project creators before pledging (and I think this is the normal thing to do no matter what abuse preventing system are in place), then there isn't really a bigger risk when the crowd funding site doesn't perform some basic research too.

I wrote extensively about what I think is wrong with KS. Part of it is that I think they need to change for everyone's benefit, not just mine. And it's not this particular change that made me want to stop using them. It's just a step further away from what I think they should become.

 

[SNESFAN]

At least they aren't implementing flex funding. A lot of indigogo scams have at least paid off some thanks to flex funding.

I don't understand what flex funding is supposed to be anyway. It's exactly the same as just setting up your own website and asking for preorders/donations on it (by any simple payment means, the purpose of those crowd sourcing websites as I understand them is just to facilitate collecting payment only if you reach your goal), what the hell do you need a specialized crowd funding website for in that case?

The appeal for these crowd sourcing websites is the audience of people on the fence or willing to donate to your cause. Where I could start a project on my own website and tell empty space I needed some startup money and the more money I get, the more successful or detailed the end state could be depending on what the funding afforded me with tools or manpower. If the audience isn't there then it just won't happen. I vaguely remember people attempting to do just that and only raising a insignificant fraction of what they would actually need. Having those dedicated webspaces is a meeting point for like minded individuals to pool resources.

Where I think indygogo fails with the flexible plan though is hardware design projects. You can't half ass a minimum order if you don't get enough money. And the minimum order is a large chunk of the investment asked in most hardware design projects. Creative ats works can more or less be done on smaller budgets so in that case, flexible investment is a great thing. If I was self publishing a book or a software, my tools and my time is the total of most of my expense. I could give a digital copy to investors if my level I requested for packaging etc was not met. Intellectual property, and some design ideas could be done on lots less than they're asking for, and probably in a lot of cases don't really "need" investors in the first place. How much does it cost me to paint a masterpiece? Canvas and paint.

The flexible payment plan tied to a hardware project is the biggest red flag I can think of though. A specific investment is needed as a minimum to meet those minimum orders and parts. Hardware design has lots of up front investment cost vs other projects I see on those sites. You cant go to a factory with 1/3 the minimum order and funds and ask them to work with you because you didn't get your desired funding. Minimum is that way for a reason, the factories got to make their money as well.

The one thing I have in defense of the new kick starter policies is that having a working prototype sometimes costs more r&d money than some teams or people have to make a idea real. Where a two tiered kick starter might be better for those. But such a system isn't in place exactly. A much smaller amount be raised to make a prototype, and then when a functional prototype the previous fundraiser project could be rolled or linked into a mass production fundraiser for credibility. And then that 2nd project could then be rolled up into another one, for bigger goals for the same product. That system would be less risky and if at any point part of the project ends up failing then the loss of investment would be much less.

Take the icp2 for example, mass production money wasn't needed if they were still working on getting a final design. And I believe that is the stage in which they failed. A fraction of what they were asking would have been needed to work out all the bugs or add requested features at different funding levels. There is no way that it cost most of the money to add a bunch of small modifications. Kick starter could be an awesome tool if they treat their project designers as non-professionals because most of them aren't big time project managers, this may be their first time working on something at that scale. They should help them and have services built into the website that get designers in touch with companies that would deal with smaller scale startups for parts, or molds, or assembly. It would be mutually beneifical for all parties involved I think. While there is nothing wrong with just being a community mating investors with ideas, it could be much much more. I'd be curious how many startups have failed to meet their goal, either with or without funding because the person pitching the product didn't fully understand the costs or coordination involved and undershot the amount or time quoted.

I have ideas, but I wouldn't even know where to start when it came to the total costs or time involved in getting items into investors hands. I may legitimately have a good idea, but in that scenario I would be labled a scammer if I couldn't deliver.

 

[Klumpen]

Maybe the risks are the reason why Kickstarter and Europe didn't get along so well? Basic consumer rights?

 

[Jumpman]

Another Update:

"Hello Backers,

Spent much of last month waiting on Craig to deliver the ICP1s to the project.  Until these are received, its not possible to know how to divide up remaining funds for refunds.  Once we get these (according to Craig, they were shipped last week) we'll get a count of how many arrive, see how many need to be used for fulfillment of pledges, see if there are any left for those who will take an ICP1 in place of an ICP2 for reward, and then we can start with the refund processing.  

That's it for now.  I hope to be back here in the next week or two with pictures of ICP1s and how many were received.  Wish I had more to provide."

Hey, we might actually get a refund before Pyra arrives :lol:  That would be sweet.

Chris