I was just looking at a thread about pairing icp+op and the abxy layout seems odd

[133794m3r]

Why is it that the pandora uses a layout that's completely different from every console since the SNES? It's one is xbay instead of abxy. I don't know why this is and to be honest I just I guess assumed that it'd use the same button layout as everything else that has ever existed ever. Always it's been: accept,cancel, other, other. Why is it then, that the pandora breaks this mold? I don't know if the other handhelds that spawned this creation influenced it but even if they did, why would you go against the grain? Unless the emulators assume that the button layout is the above one even though the physical buttons do not match up with it?


Anyway, I just thought I'd make this topic since this has just shocked me beyond any realm of sanity or reason. I was originally thinking, going in, that the game buttons would work as my muscle memory has taught me for the past 16 or so years, but I have now learnt that it's completely different. The only reason I can think of doing this is the same reason they went from alphabetic to qwerty, which is to prevent button wearout by not letting people use muscle memory/simple knowledge.


Seriously, what the hell.... going against everything else in existence? I could see if it's like the nintendo D-Pad which was patented but expired as of this year, but everyone has that layout and has had it for ages so this makes no sense.

 

[Prometheus]

Once upon a time, this question spawned a myth, back over on GP32X, that Nintendo owns some sort of trademark on that button layout. I'm pretty sure that they actually don't. (It was a twin myth with the "Nintendo owns a patent on two-position hinges for handhelds" thing, which, amusingly, still has the erroneous claims on GP32X as the top search results, since it, too, is false.)


As for why it is the way it is, I don't actually know, but I don't actually look at the buttons, so my muscle-memory takes care of everything.

 

[WizardStan]

I can't actually find the patent information anymore, Google is choked up with page after page of some new "universal" controller that Sony has recently patented.


The story is that the YX/BA layout from the SNES is patented so a different format is needed. The AY/XB layout on the Pandora was chosen because that's what the GP2X (the spiritual predecessor of the Pandora) used.

 

[elwing]

what might be patented is the playstation layout, no?


or more lickely the button logo...

 

[laurencevde]

The SNES got launched in 1991 in the US, so (as US-patents have a 20-year lifespan) all of its patents must have expired...


Though that wasn't the case when the Pandora got designed.

 

[TrashyMG]

what's the big deal?.. different controllers have different button layouts.. the Xbox layout is slightly different from the Nintendo standard, Sega changed theirs up many times.. Sony decided to use symbols. The SNES is actually bayx and different than the layout I believe the Dreamcast started.

 

[gruso]

Patents or no, the OP team simply don't have the resources to fight someone rabid like Nintendo who might find a reason to sue them. So they went with the layout that definitely wouldn't get them sued - the one we all knew from the GP2X. I've never been a huge fan, but it gets the job done.


On one hand it doesn't really affect gameplay - that's a matter of muscle memory, not symbols. On the other hand, it does affect software design. Many devs use 'A' as the primary button, but it doesn't suit this layout.

 

[Binky]

Can the buttons be swapped round manually?

 

[Prometheus]

^ Yep, for even more confusion. :lol:

 

[Binky]

^ Yep, for even more confusion. :lol:

Only if unaccompanied by software remapping...

 

[gruso]

I'd do that, but then I'd be annoyed by things that use X as the default button.


First world problems yo.

 

[GiraffeeDreams]

I like the layout, even of it is down to copyright issues i think it makes the control stand out, the issue I have is when playing PicoDrive in joystick mode the dpad right on player 2 is the same as jump for player 1 using the pandora controls, is there a way to remap the inputs from the icontrolpad? All I want to do is play toe jam and earl coop!

 

[diligentcircle]

Unless the emulators assume that the button layout is the above one even though the physical buttons do not match up with it?

This sentence leads me to believe that your concern is a result of a misunderstanding.


The layout being the way it is doesn't mean emulators with consoles that happen to use the same letters will be mapped weirdly. There's no reason for this to be the case; programs read button numbers and keycodes, not the letters written on the buttons. So, for example, in the SNES emulator, A is mapped to B, B is mapped to X, X to Y, and Y to A (unless you change them, which you can).


Also, though some programs use A or X for accept, the OS itself and many programs and emulators use B.

 

[133794m3r]

To put it simply, I was talking about _what_ the buttons do not that the buttons names themselves. If you've read my post I clearly stated that the buttons in the positions that they were meant what they should be. Even though sony has changed the names of the buttons and slightly rotated them differently, it's still accept->cancel->other->other in counter-clockwise fasion. The 360 uses the ABXY button layout so I doubt _any_ patents exist for it since microsoft used it and I hadn't heard of them paying patent damages, nor did sega or anyone else.


Anyway I was talking about _what_ the buttons _do_ not what they _say_. Sony is XO/\[], 360 is abxy, dreamcast is abxy, snes is abxy, but even if they change the names of them it doesn't matter. What matters to me, is what they do. As in the actions that they cause. Hell they could be %,$,&,! for all I care. So long as the corresponding actions are accept,cancel, other other. That's what matters to me, the actions that are caused by pressing the buttons in the "muscle memory" positions. So to reiterate my entire point of this thread once again in case anyone hasn't gotten it yet, the actions caused by pressing the buttons _should_ be action, cancel, something something, in counter-clockwise fashion. If the thing already does that, I don't care, it's just that the buttons in their orientation caused me to believe that they are setup otherwise. If it's setup like that then so be it, I don't care and it's a non-problem. It seems though that for whatever reason the default is otherwise, so I'm hoping that there is a configuration file to redefine things globally to be accept, cancel, other other. If not, I guess I could get used to it since I think I remember the nintendo handhelds breaking this mold by doing cancel-accept other other. But eitherway the point of this thread was to figure out how the thing was oriented.

 

[TrashyMG]

There is no cut in stone standard for what buttons do.. It depends on the preference of the person who ports the software. most of the software ported to this device were compiled from PC versions and generally with the keyboard in mind for controls, even if you hitch a controller to these PC games, you generally have to map the controls the way you want it..

 

[diligentcircle]

To put it simply, I was talking about _what_ the buttons do not that the buttons names themselves. If you've read my post I clearly stated that the buttons in the positions that they were meant what they should be. Even though sony has changed the names of the buttons and slightly rotated them differently, it's still accept->cancel->other->other in counter-clockwise fasion. The 360 uses the ABXY button layout so I doubt _any_ patents exist for it since microsoft used it and I hadn't heard of them paying patent damages, nor did sega or anyone else.


Anyway I was talking about _what_ the buttons _do_ not what they _say_. Sony is XO/\[], 360 is abxy, dreamcast is abxy, snes is abxy, but even if they change the names of them it doesn't matter. What matters to me, is what they do. As in the actions that they cause. Hell they could be %,$,&,! for all I care. So long as the corresponding actions are accept,cancel, other other. That's what matters to me, the actions that are caused by pressing the buttons in the "muscle memory" positions. So to reiterate my entire point of this thread once again in case anyone hasn't gotten it yet, the actions caused by pressing the buttons _should_ be action, cancel, something something, in counter-clockwise fashion. If the thing already does that, I don't care, it's just that the buttons in their orientation caused me to believe that they are setup otherwise. If it's setup like that then so be it, I don't care and it's a non-problem. It seems though that for whatever reason the default is otherwise, so I'm hoping that there is a configuration file to redefine things globally to be accept, cancel, other other. If not, I guess I could get used to it since I think I remember the nintendo handhelds breaking this mold by doing cancel-accept other other. But eitherway the point of this thread was to figure out how the thing was oriented.

First off, let me mention this is not a universal standard. I don't know about current-gen non-Nintendo consoles, but the original Playstation in the US used X for accept and triangle for cancel, for example. Second off, and this is important, since this is an open platform, there is no way to force developers to conform to any particular standard. Plenty of games and most emulators I've used use B for select and X for cancel, but some use X to select, some use A to select and B to cancel, and some lazy ports of PC games don't use the face buttons at all in menus (leaving the Enter key to be used to select). It would be interesting if there were some variables defining "select" and "cancel" buttons that users can modify and developers can read, and this has been mentioned before, but even this wouldn't entirely fix inconsistency (since developers can't be forced to use these hypothetical variables, and heck, plenty of them might not even know they exist; plus, depending on exactly how it's done, not all games would necessarily be able to use them), and to be honest, it could be a bad idea if it causes true confusion due to certain games not having the buttons mapped as expected (either due to being older or being unable to use these hypothetical variables for some reason).


To be honest, though, I have never had any real problems with this. There's some inconsistency with PC gaming, too; for select, some use Enter, some use Space, some use Enter or Space, and some use Ctrl, while for cancel, some use Esc, some use Backspace, and some don't have a cancel key at all. On the Pandora, select is pretty much always B, X, A, or (rarely) Enter, and the Cancel key (if any) can be figured out from there.

 

[gruso]

So to reiterate my entire point of this thread once again in case anyone hasn't gotten it yet ...

Chill man.

To summarise what the previous two posts said (in case you haven't gotten it yet ^__^) commercial console devs, for the most part, have to follow certain conventions for common functions. Homebrew devs do what they like. This is the case on any open platform.

 

[WizardStan]

it's still accept->cancel->other->other in counter-clockwise fasion.

Which is backwards of the SNES, which goes cancel->accept. And which is opposite to what it is in Japan, where the X means cancel and the O means accept, in the same positions as they are on the SNES. You're just disproving your own point that there's some kind of universal standard when one company doesn't even do it the same in different regions.

The 360 uses the ABXY button layout so I doubt _any_ patents exist for it since microsoft used it and I hadn't heard of them paying patent damages, nor did sega or anyone else.

The XBox has A and X on the left, B and Y on the right. Nintendo is the opposite and has been since the dawn of time: B and Y on the left, A and X on the right. Sega also chose a left-to-right scheme, using 3 buttons instead of two: also different.


Every single company has done it differently. You want OPT to follow a standard? Which one?

 

[Prometheus]

Every single company has done it differently. You want OPT to follow a standard? Which one?

 

[GiraffeeDreams]

There is a general standard for most pandora applications, B is enter and X is back, it's how PicoDrive, Snes9x4P, PCSX ReARMed and GbSP at least, it just happens that way, the buttons are in a different order simply, I mean hell I'm used to have ABC or AB and 4 C buttons, i don't feel it's weird at all in fact looking now it's neater to me.


Everyone ends up with different standards as Prometheus elegantly explained, Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft all have their own layouts with the occasional change, You'll find most of the Pandora/GP2X/open source consoles follow a similar layout.


'Nuff sed.