I pre-ordered a OpenPandora in 2010 and still haven't received anything

[ponlork]

I actually agree with that, and it does mention ED's name literally on the Open-Pandora projects website. And ED in fact helped development of the Pandora.
The crowd-funding also happened to develop the Pandora, also supported by ED. And production actually was done, although with a lower than expected yield. This also caused Graig to do sell even more units in the hope it would solve his production problems.
It's just that ED wasn't working for Graig or his shop. Graig's shop mixed the open-source Pandora project and his shop and presented it as the same thing.
That's why ED's shop still exist and Graig's doesn't. Everyone can produce a Pandora, it's open-source. ED did this afterwards, and he wasn't using your money for his funding for those Pandora's.
But I also understand you blame everyone from the Pandora project, they are on the site and worked on the project. They allowed Craig to handle the funding and production.
I disagree on the part where ED worked for "OpenPandora Ltd." which was the legal entity handling the funding, production and the sales (and this was the shop you gave your money to).


Wait a minute, you can't do that. I just bought a printed version of this thread from Graig's website and due to all this discussion I have the feeling I'll not receive anything.
(this is a joke btw.)

View attachment 38458

from the way they had the section back in 2010 it appears that there was numerous members and they paint it as them all together in one team. and this evil dragon guy wasn't a mere spokesperson as some of u or he try to claim later

Of course those same people will try to deny involvement when things fall apart and we're supposed to just blindly believe everything they say even if the ones saying it are the ones running the site. you can go to a World Cup soccer stadium that is home to a specific team, obviously they going to root for their own team that dont mean shit and its sleazy they try to use that as a argument. and they wonder why nobody trust their phony ass

let me ask you this, lets say this project was hosted on kickstarter instead of here, and 2 years in production one of the members decides to just take half the money and flee. And the team members left on the project updates the backers that you will try to do everything to make things work. Along the way you produce a few here and there, but to keep up with the costs you have to start selling them before fufilling the orders from the kickstarter backers. And lets say several years down the line one of the superbackers who backed it super early hasn't received theirs yet because his order cost too much.

Will you think its okay to tell that superbacker to stop whining it was so long ago that he's crazy for complaining and ridicule him for inquiring about his order? if u think thats inappropriate there why do u think it isnt here? is it because they think they can get away with it if its on a site that they maintain?

so its okay for people to call me a mentally disturb individual and troll but if i call them a imbecile then i gotta play by a different set of rules right

 

[TrashyMG]

so its okay for people to call me a mentally disturb individual and troll but if i call them a imbecile then i gotta play by a different set of rules right

We have been telling you all this time life is unfair...

 

[ponlork]

We have been telling you all this time life is unfair...

as long as you know im right then everything is everything

 

[TeDaDeS]

so its okay for people to call me a mentally disturb individual and troll but if i call them a imbecile then i gotta play by a different set of rules right

We have been telling you all this time life is unfair...

Every customer one this forums wasn't happy with Graig, which is a lot of us. And not being happy how this went is a reaction a lot of customers had obviously. Naming calling doesn't help, but I also understand there can be emotions triggered.

The comparison with Kickstarter is probably because it was crowd-sourced, and indeed you can't just run away from such a project.
But Kickstarter only handles the funding part, and the project has to handle production, shipping and customer-service.
Graig handled the funding part, like Kickstarter would do, but also the production itself. ED was a customer, a kickstarter investor, just like you.
Sure he also worked on the Open-Pandora project itself to design the unit. But the investing part went via his shop to Graig's shop, just like your purchase.
I think Graig presented this differently on his website, it's like the project itself was handling the funding and sales and not Graig himself.
So I don't blame you for not knowing, first impression will be like: a done-deal and shipping ready (a bit more reading could give some indications this wasn't true).
You could blame ED for not representing this clearly on the website, but who knows: he might have complained about it while Graig stated 'sure, I'll fix that. When I have time...'.
If I remember correctly ED explicitly didn't want to be part of Graig's activities, as he had his own shop and that could become a mess.
ED didn't have access to Graig's money or his Pandora's, he also didn't get Graig's shop when Graig left. He only lost money and got lots of angry customers and hardly any Pandora's.
This is the moment ED and you got in this situation.
Afterwards ED start his own production, with his own money from his own shop (and from donation from us). And not only sold homemade new Pandora's, he compensated as much angry customers as he could.
And now it's 2022, and there are still some angry customers.

 

[monty]

if Elon takes over twitter he still has to take care of the baggage that came along with it. I purchased from this site, who still handles this site? why is it my responsibility to even know any of these people are. if it was to be taken to court i'll win

A lot of this seems to boil down to a feeling on your part that owning a website domain or server confers legal responsibility. It doesn't. Musk has to take care of the baggage because he bought the whole company. If he bought the name, the domain and the assets of Twitter without buying the company or the order book then he'd not be responsible for the order book.

I really do feel for you. Despite all the going around in circles that has been done over this and the (oh God) ten year old thread where exactly the same conversation was had --- when I was carefree with less salt and pepper in the hair --- I still feel like we're having the same conversation and you are still the same amount of right and wrong.

You were done out of money that ought to be yours. That open sourced community project did not make it plain to outsiders that there were two distinct entities and that lead to much confusion and loss of money. Many people were fucked over and poorly communicated with.

On the other hand you just do not want to hear that no matter what you feel two companies sharing one website does mean they become one company and no matter how many times you assert that you would win a court case and/or have a moral right you cannot sue a legally unrelated German company for the sins of an insolvent British company.

Its a give away how much you are over asserting. If two companies do not share an order book, do not have a joint parent company, one never bought out the other, then you have no legal case.

Its shit. But there you go. Just because its a shit situation doesn't mean you're right.

from my recollection, ED and craig were partners so he didnt take over the site, he was apart of the site when the process was going down. to say he has absolutely nothing to do with any of this is just deflecting and making excuses

I have 'partner' businesses that helped me develop and manufacture my products. They were heavily involved in the design, communication and helped promote it. Some of them sold it. None of those companies would be responsible, morally or legally (nor would people in my own community expect them to be) if my company went under.

imagine if you loan someone 500$ and they disappear and when you track them down years later they say, well u seem to have adjusted well without the 500$ so surely u can survive without it. you should just get over it cuz its entitlement if u ask for it. this is the logic this site is trying to suggest aint that some bs

In 2013 you thought the "what if you loaned someone $X" analogy that @WizardStan was making was entirely inappropriate. I don't like dragging up something said ten years ago but, bloody hell, you've just come back with exactly the same thread a decade later.

any honest company would have had the situation resolved without having the customer constantly inquire about it for years and years.

The company has been dissolved and, no, it wasn't an honest company. The old website is not that company. As above, I know you want it to be but it isn't, morally or legally.

What ways we find to waste our time.

 

[ponlork]

A lot of this seems to boil down to a feeling on your part that owning a website domain or server confers legal responsibility. It doesn't. Musk has to take care of the baggage because he bought the whole company. If he bought the name, the domain and the assets of Twitter without buying the company or the order book then he'd not be responsible for the order book.

I really do feel for you. Despite all the going around in circles that has been done over this and the (oh God) ten year old thread where exactly the same conversation was had --- when I was carefree with less salt and pepper in the hair --- I still feel like we're having the same conversation and you are still the same amount of right and wrong.

You were done out of money that ought to be yours. That open sourced community project did not make it plain to outsiders that there were two distinct entities and that lead to much confusion and loss of money. Many people were fucked over and poorly communicated with.

On the other hand you just do not want to hear that no matter what you feel two companies sharing one website does mean they become one company and no matter how many times you assert that you would win a court case and/or have a moral right you cannot sue a legally unrelated German company for the sins of an insolvent British company.

Its a give away how much you are over asserting. If two companies do not share an order book, do not have a joint parent company, one never bought out the other, then you have no legal case.

Its shit. But there you go. Just because its a shit situation doesn't mean you're right.



I have 'partner' businesses that helped me develop and manufacture my products. They were heavily involved in the design, communication and helped promote it. Some of them sold it. None of those companies would be responsible, morally or legally (nor would people in my own community expect them to be) if my company went under.



In 2013 you thought the "what if you loaned someone $X" analogy that @WizardStan was making was entirely inappropriate. I don't like dragging up something said ten years ago but, bloody hell, you've just come back with exactly the same thread a decade later.


The company has been dissolved and, no, it wasn't an honest company. The old website is not that company. As above, I know you want it to be but it isn't, morally or legally.

What ways we find to waste our time.

i use the loan analogy due to people telling me that i should have brought it up 8 years ago even though i did, then they telling me that it's pointless and since i didnt actively pursue it and decided to wait for years that it was my fault, since i didnt ask for it during all those years. the loan analogy was how when people borrow money, then they dont feel they're obligated to keep track or get in contact with you. rather they just hope they dont ask for it and hope they forget. that if they dont ask for it, then that mean it wasn't really that important when i feel that the person who lend the money shouldnt be the one to constantly try to chase after the person and keep reminding them or keep inquiring about it. it should be them who keep track of the records and try to get things resolved with me.

the loan analogy that someone used 8 years ago wasn't appropriate due to the fact that i had purchased the device from the site that stated that tangible product, not a idea or a experiment. it was advertising a product that was already in production and had shipments already being shipped out. So i dont see how me placing a pre-order was comparable to giving a loan. In my example above the loan analogy was speaking on those who feel that it's okay to stay quiet if a person doesn't ask for the money back, that they feel its okay to not do anything, u get it now?

like if you loan someone 500$ and they disappear and keep you in the dark, and when u confront them they say "you seem to have adjusted well without the $500, so obviously you can survive without it. It's selfish to ask for it". That was literally the logic these people tried to use on me so i was more tackling that disgusting mindset that these people have

I have 'partner' businesses that helped me develop and manufacture my products. They were heavily involved in the design, communication and helped promote it. Some of them sold it. None of those companies would be responsible, morally or legally (nor would people in my own community expect them to be) if my company went under.

exactly, if the chip company or whoever you got in contact with if it's a sub contactor or people you commissioned to bring your idea into light, u wouldnt tell your customers to go after the chip companies or those who screwed up in the manufacturing process. So when a customer purchases a product from your site, and for whatever reason they never got the product they ordered, you will feel obligated to either replace the order, refund them or find a way to reimburse them correct?

 

[TrashyMG]

exactly, if the chip company or whoever you got in contact with if it's a sub contactor or people you commissioned to bring your idea into light, u wouldnt tell your customers to go after the chip companies or those who screwed up in the manufacturing process. So when a customer purchases a product from your site, and for whatever reason they never got the product they ordered, you will feel obligated to either replace the order, refund them or find a way to reimburse them correct?

Except you didn't order from EvilDragon's Germany shop, you ordered from Craig's UK shop... Two Different stores where ran separately by different people, in two different Countries. This Website forum just provided a communication portal for the shared community., it just provided links to the two different shops where you could order the Pandora.. that's it., we've been over this several times... It's not hard to understand.

A better analogy would be you bought 6502 processors directly from MOS technologies, however they folded long ago and you never got these processors, now 12 years later you're harassing Rockwell who took over production of the processor to give you a refund to a customer they never had.

 

[ponlork]

Except you didn't order from EvilDragon's Germany shop, you ordered from Craig's UK shop... Two Different stores where ran separately by different people, in two different Countries. This Website forum just provided a communication portal for the shared community., it just provided links to the two different shops where you could order the Pandora.. that's it., we've been over this several times... It's not hard to understand.

A better analogy would be you bought 6502 processors directly from MOS technologies, however they folded long ago and you never got these processors, now 12 years later you're harassing Rockwell who took over production of the processor to give you a refund to a customer they never had.

the thing is when i ordered there wasn't a shop to select from. it was a pre-order that had us contact them by email at sales@openpandorg.org to inquire about placing a order.

Preorder 2nd batch

OpenPandora.org - The official site of the OpenSource Pandora Gaming console handheld

web.archive.org

the site didnt take us to any of offsite link to place a order or make any mention of there being two separate companies that were unrelated to each other. at the very least that's misleading and deceptive. and guess who ran the site? who was the won posting blogs, writing descriptions and all that.

first they were saying "we", "us", "our company" but years later when things fell apart they all wanna jump ship and deny any culpability or involvement and give countless excuses like everybody is supposed to just automatically believe everything they say when they've been shown to be shady and non transparent.

if i purchased a 6502 processor from a site for 500$, told that it'll arrive in 2 months, but unforeseen circumstances kept delaying it for months and months and i inquire about it and assured that it's still moving, and im waiting patiently for years and years then they suddenly tell me all these bad news about internal affairs and problems with some bad business partner and giving me numerous excuses and excuses like any of that is supposed to be the customers problem

and im still trusting them that things will pan out, inquiring about it periodically and still patiently waiting, then in 2014 is given a extortion offer of paying a extra 350$ on top of the 468$ ive already paid, or i can simply wait and hopefully it'll arrive. and i decide to wait some more and still put in the effort to check even though they haven't lift a finger to contact me but expect me to do all the effort.

and for whatever reason i may fall on hard times and wasn't pursuing it relentlessly even though i feel like they should be the one getting at me not me trying to constantly get at them,
and i still see them operating and when i post about it the people on the site is telling me to get over it and stop whining hell yeah im going to feel some type of way

i shouldnt even be the one to have to contact or inquire with these people which goes back to my original analogy, what, some people think if they just continue to ignore a customer, keep giving them the runaround long enough that they will just give up and quit, that they dont have to do anything? then turn around and say well u should have asked sooner if u really wanted it that bad even though if i asked sooner they'll still give the same runaround?

 

[TrashyMG]

You're not a customer of EvilDragon's Dragonbox shop, The company you gave money to dissolved long ago and your money is gone, that's it... You can't be extorted by a company that didn't promise you anything outside a pity discount for being screwed over.

There where many inter-tangled events that caused things to be a mess, it's life. There was no intentional deception, just a lot of wishful thinking that things would work out. The Pandora should have been done with after Craig Abandoned ship and everyone would have lost all their money and there wouldn't be this forum anymore. Yet myself and many others as the community kept things moving with the Germany production that EvilDragon proposed it was effectively a crowdfunded effort, well before Crowdfunding was a term. I personally could have bought 8 Pandoras with donations I made to help keep Manufacturing going, This was a passion project for many of us here. All the people here that donated, payed the extra money for their units kept the project alive and don't feel ripped off, in the end we did something amazing and for many years great open-source software projects came out of this community on a shared hand-held platform...You could have been apart of that, but you just saw a toy you didn't get or money you just wanted back.

 

[elw3]

Yesyes we all get it, been there.

And now to something completely different: What actually do you want to achieve with this thread?
Trying to get a refund? That money does not exist anymore.
Trying to warn others about your bad shopping experience? Yea no one will open this pages anymore in a few weeks.
Trying to tell these involved that they are bad horrible persons? There is a whole community telling otherwise.

 

[ponlork]

You're not a customer of EvilDragon's Dragonbox shop, The company you gave money to dissolved long ago and your money is gone, that's it... You can't be extorted by a company that didn't promise you anything outside a pity discount for being screwed over.

There where many inter-tangled events that caused things to be a mess, it's life. There was no intentional deception, just a lot of wishful thinking that things would work out. The Pandora should have been done with after Craig Abandoned ship and everyone would have lost all their money and there wouldn't be this forum anymore. Yet myself and many others as the community kept things moving with the Germany production that EvilDragon proposed it was effectively a crowdfunded effort, well before Crowdfunding was a term. I personally could have bought 8 Pandoras with donations I made to help keep Manufacturing going, This was a passion project for many of us here. All the people here that donated, payed the extra money for their units kept the project alive and don't feel ripped off, in the end we did something amazing and for many years great open-source software projects came out of this community on a shared hand-held platform...You could have been apart of that, but you just saw a toy you didn't get or money you just wanted back.

yes life isn't fair but i aint a quitter like you. there are honest sellers out there who value their customers who supported them early when hardly anyone would. then there's this site who will call those consumers trolls, tell them to stop whining and bitching, and hightail and run whenever issues arise, make excuses, and leave others to clean up their mess

Post automatically merged: Dec 6, 2022

Yesyes we all get it, been there.

And now to something completely different: What actually do you want to achieve with this thread?
Trying to get a refund? That money does not exist anymore.
Trying to warn others about your bad shopping experience? Yea no one will open this pages anymore in a few weeks.
Trying to tell these involved that they are bad horrible persons? There is a whole community telling otherwise.

if your commentary serves no purpose then you can dismiss yourself from my presence

and that's why i made the distinction of a pre-order and loan how those two analogies weren't comparable. when someone loan or donate that's more charity or them wanting to help someone. props to those people who choose to do that. but dont attack those honest customers who weren't apart of the community and innocently wanted to purchase a product instead of donating. if it's like that then dont advertise it as such

if someone chooses to donate then that's their choice. if someone choose to pay for a product then that's also their choice. if they dont wanna get involved in a cult where they blindly accept whatever excuse that's being given then that's fine too

 

[ClockworkCoder]

You've also had a full blown explaination in this thread and had every opportunity to follow up back then but ultimately chose to leave it for 10 years

That is an interesting read indeed (and likely worth perusing again for a sense of the history).

Unfortunately, in spite of member's best attempts (I admire the patience of many here), it now just feels like déjà vu from that old thread.

 

[ponlork]

That is an interesting read indeed (and likely worth perusing again for a sense of the history).

Unfortunately, in spite of member's best attempts (I admire the patience of many here), it now just feels like déjà vu from that old thread.

the first hint i got of any problem was on sept 7 2013 when i got this email from evil

initially there was some issue with PCB boards and some partner in texas or whatever. Then around November is when that big fiasco about Craig or whatever. Speaking of which, if dude has nothing to do with the company then how he got in my email? it came from Evildragon@openpandora.org, which was the name of the site. you gonna tell me that me ordering from openpandora.org, and him replying from his email at openpandora.org that he has no involvement at all?

see how dishonest these people are? To say that this could have been resolved 10 years ago, okay lets go back to 2012, were they telling people that the money gone then? or were they still optimistic and assuring people that everything is still moving. And let's say the big issue occurred in late 2013, if people complained then they would have gotten the issue resolved overnight? or did this thing went on for several more years where people were slowly and gradually getting things resolved well into 2016 and beyond. They gave a solution for UK and EU users but what about those customers from the US or other countries?

They get left out and we're only offered a upgrade if we pay more and they believe that's fair. Imagine if someone purchases a item on fb marketplace or whatever and they meet up for the sale and the person selling says that they gotta pay a extra $30 for their gas trip even though that wasn't the price they agreed upon. but because they're already here they feel like they can swindle u for more. even if it's a good deal that shit is wrong

and yeah i did try to get things resolved even in late 2013, everybody wanna talk about how welcoming this community is. i call BS, even back then i detected these negative elitist shady circle jerk vibes from this place. people can big themselves up all they want but if they truly charitable they wouldnt have to try to prove themselves and big themselves up by putting it up on a billboard that they donated while undermining those who simply paid and didnt get involved in this community. i dont trust nothing these people say

and there are people who can contribute in other ways, maybe they introverts and more interested in developing but uncomfortable about posting and stuff like that so their intention might have been to contribute to the dev community with games and software. But what because they werent able to get their device and because they dont post in the community that they are viewed as less and get ridiculed by those who feel they are above others because they feel they contributed more?

 

[monty]

OK how about we try this:

You won't accept there is no moral responsibility. Fine.

At the least, please try accepting that, regardless of your opinions on the rights and wrongs, there is no legal responsibility and no German court is going to order you your money back (despite what you've absurdly claimed about winning if you sued).

If you won't accept that (you should though) then stop posting about it here and do something legal about it to prove your point. Tell us how it goes.

And where do you get off, telling a forum full of people who lost money, many of whom chased that money for a lot longer than you did, and didn't take a ten year time-out, to get out of your face because you don't like what they're telling you? You want to take ten years out of the conversation that's OK, but have some modesty in your behaviour with the community when you get back.

Pomposity is what this is.

If the mods won't freeze this thread I'm sure as hell hitting unwatch and ignore it.

 

[ponlork]

OK how about we try this:

You won't accept there is no moral responsibility. Fine.

At the least, please try accepting that, regardless of your opinions on the rights and wrongs, there is no legal responsibility and no German court is going to order you your money back (despite what you've absurdly claimed about winning if you sued).

If you won't accept that (you should though) then stop posting about it here and do something legal about it to prove your point. Tell us how it goes.

And where do you get off, telling a forum full of people who lost money, many of whom chased that money for a lot longer than you did, and didn't take a ten year time-out, to get out of your face because you don't like what they're telling you? You want to take ten years out of the conversation that's OK, but have some modesty in your behaviour with the community when you get back.

Pomposity is what this is.

If the mods won't freeze this thread I'm sure as hell hitting unwatch and ignore it.

it aint the oppression Olympics, if i post a inquiry about a product that i ordered here for nearly 500$ and i immediately get met with snarky responses about how i'm entitled for asking about it or that i should stop bitching and whining when nothing in my original posts were spiteful or inflammatory, then expect negative responses back. if someone is frustrated that that they spent 500$ on a product from a site and is given every excuse in the book why the order cant be fulfilled, then try to use pathetic little guilt trip tactics and call the person mentally disturbed or a whiny little bitch when anybody looking from the outside in will know the customer was wronged and in the right. i should be able to call these people out.

even if nothing comes out of it, at least the person tried unlike you quitters who constantly point the finger at everyone but yourself. since day 1 it's always someone else fault with you people. then try to drag innocent users and customers in to your mess, and not even attempt to offer anyone a refund. You say he got ten years to resolve it? how about u got ten years to raise the funds. but no, they want the customers and members to do their dirty work. First it's the PCB company fault, then it was a ex member on the team, how about YOU take accountability for your poor decisions and failures.

if dude wants to speak on it or to compile everything so he can evaluate things later than thats fine too

 

[TrashyMG]

yes life isn't fair but i aint a quitter like you.

Ha! I own three Pandoras and a Pyra... not sure what I'm quitting, but I'm rolling in Pandoras.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

Speaking of which, if dude has nothing to do with the company then how he got in my email?

This was before GDPR (otherwise he wouldn't likely have been able to do anything, I suspect), so it looks to me that he was reaching out to those affected to try to resolve their issues. Ten years ago.

see how dishonest these people are? To say that this could have been resolved 10 years ago, okay lets go back to 2012

Which people? We're not back in 2012, and while you may regret taking appropriate action at that time it is no one else's fault. Also, no one replying here is qualified to help you. We're just a community of enthusiasts, when what you need is sound advice from a solicitor.

I understand you've had a shitty deal. I'd be pissed off too. Well, at least I would have been pissed off 10 years ago, but by now I would have been well and truly over it; life's too short.

I truly feel sorry if you've harbored these harsh emotions for so long, it can't be good for your health. Please seek help, and good luck to you. I'm afraid I'll unsubscribe from this thread now.

 

[TrashyMG]

If the mods won't freeze this thread I'm sure as hell hitting unwatch and ignore it.

No the guys on Discord/IRC told me not to lock it, this is the best entertainment they had in a while.

 

[elw3]

if your commentary serves no purpose then you can dismiss yourself from my presence

I feel like i have asked a valid question here. We deserve answers!

 

[TeDaDeS]

Looks like someone wrote a manual on getting a refund from Graig.
Source: https://pandorawiki.org/Openpandora_Ltd (Thanks for posting b_o_b)

How to get refunds​

• Openpandora ltd. has lots of liablities in undelivered goods to customers, here is how you can get that money refunded.
• The company is still active, and a voluntary dissulution has been contested by members of the community, pending a full liquidation.[[1]] [[2]]
• It is possible to get refunds for undelivered items by filing a google dispute. This is if you paid with google wallet. If not, file *a dispute with visa, in your bank
• If you paid via bank transfer. or the others failed, consult european trade consumer rights.

--

• If you live in the UK, you can file a small claims dispute It costs 25£ to do so, a little bit more if your claim is bigger than 300 pounds.
• The Moneyclaim online service have a help desk number. They are very helpful so if you want to act, get their advice and also try the CAB.
• MoneyClaimOnline: e-maili your query to: MCOL@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk alternatively please telephone us on 0300 123 1057.

Citizens Advice: http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm

Openpandora Ltd.

Registered Address:
26 Meadow Road
Lemington
Newcastle Upon Tyne
NE15 7LP
United Kingdom

Trading Address:
26 Meadow Road
Lemington
Newcastle Upon Tyne
Tyne and Wear
NE15 7LP